Ken talks about very very grumpy Spanish waiters in the forum (should that read racist?)
… whilst there is a very definitely racist encounter with waiters described at the Symphony in D blog.
The latter tale is horrific, but shouldn’t be taken as representative of attitudes across Spain. Immigration by anyone other that South Americans and Europeans is a very recent phenomenon in Spain, yet the odd few Spaniards that come out with racist bile are the exception rather than the rule. Most educated Spaniards don’t seem bothered at all, not yet at least, and certainly not when compared with the ‘Rivers of Blood‘ type attitudes that were common in Britain in the sixties and seventies when the UK was experiencing similar changes.
IHaveADream
26 May 07 at 2:51 pm
Ben,
How would you know that this isn’t representative of attitudes in Spain? Have you done a survey of racially ethnic immigrants/tourists in Spain? Don’t be so quick to assume that what was expressed in that restaurant isn’t representative of something sick and twisted in modern-day Spanish society. Here’s the thing: Nobody, not a single person in that restaurant, publicly voiced any disdain, disgust or disagreement about what all those people said. There wasn’t even anyone who said “Would you people mind keeping your opinions to yourself? I’m trying to eat.”
The guy who recounted the situation noted that he didn’t say anything. He just eat his meal and left. Silence = acquiescence. It’s all good and well to blog about one’s disgust but it would’ve been so much more effective and telling if that Spaniard had said something, anything, to express his displeasure with his compatriotas. The fact that he said absolutely nothing, combined with the bile that shot out of not one, not two, but three people’s mouths in a public place that illegally denied service to someone based solely on their ethnicity, to me, IS representative of something.
Ben
26 May 07 at 3:06 pm
“How would you know that this isn’t representative of attitudes in Spain? ” – Because I spend a lot of time here with my eyes and ears open and that is the experience I have formed. Most educated people here feel great sympathy for those that immigrate here and have such a hard time. As for the uneducated, of course you will hear stories such as the one above, but what do you expect from idiots?
And just becuase the guy voted with his feet rather than his voice does not make him a bad person. Not everyone has to be outspoken to be morally correct.
Carl
26 May 07 at 3:52 pm
The Spanish have not dealt with immigration for very long. I’m afraid the truth is they are afraid, resentful, worried, don’t like change, in short, perfectly normal and just like everybody else in the world. I just wish they would admit it. I have had many discussions with Spaniards castigating Americans for our horrible racism when they had absolutely no immigration issues. Now that they do, they have some adjusting to do and it will take time.
Stuart
26 May 07 at 3:56 pm
I have to say, I wouldn’t have quickly eaten up and left, I would have left immediately without paying, perhaps mentioning why as they protested.
Ben
26 May 07 at 4:12 pm
Carl, you hit the nail on the head.
Edith
26 May 07 at 4:56 pm
I agree with Carl, and his observations appky to other European countries as well. A couple of years ago, a lunchroom in The Hague gained our headlines by refusing entrance to women wearing a headscarf. I wrote them a polite yet firm letter about this, but I never received a reply.
Personally, I don’t want to frequent an establishment where guests are discriminated against on the basis of their ethnicity. If I had witnessed the conversation mentioned in the Symphony in D blog I would probably have been extremely upset and I would have left the restaurant right away without finishing my meal.
Unfortunately, racism is still alive and well among some people but it would be wrong to label entire countries as being racist. Using the restaurant example to tar the entire Spanish nation with the same brush would be like blaming all Americans for the racist attitudes which still exist in Jena, Louisiana.
Nevertheless, incidents like this are very troubling and it makes me wonder whether racism will ever go away. Europe and America have got a particularly nasty history of racism-related events, but so do countries like Japan (World War II!).
Frank
26 May 07 at 9:26 pm
“The Spanish have not dealt with immigration for very long.”
Only since the year 711! The Spanish have not got a very good track record when it comes to dealing with immigrants, be they Arabs, Jews, or whatever. After finally defeating the Arabs, the then proceeded to kick them all out, and Torquemada, despite his grandmother being a converso, a Jew, then took charge of kicking all the Jews out. Well the lucky ones, that weren’t killed. Unlike Ben, I don’t live in Spain, but have visited on dozens of occasions, and I have to say I find Spain quite a racist country.
ValenciaSon
26 May 07 at 10:15 pm
So Frank, tell us about your racial utopia.
leftbanker
27 May 07 at 5:39 pm
I’m just glad that I come from a country (USA) that has never had any sort of racism whatsoever.
I just ran my Microsoft Sarcasm check program and it wants me to delete that last sentence entirely. Racism exists every place where two races coexist. One anecdotal account of racism is hardly justification to condemn an entire nation.
Frank says he finds Spain to be racist. Does he know of any place entirely free of racism? And thanks for your history lesson but Torquemada was 500 years ago. People performed human sacrifices in Mexico 500 years ago but we don’t hold modern Mexicans accountable for that (except in Mel Gibson movies and we all know he’s a racist).
I haven’t found that Spain is overtly racist any more than any other country in which I have either visited or called home. Racism is about ignorance, not national borders. Ignorance is everywhere and must be vanquished.
Sonia
27 May 07 at 8:33 pm
As a Black British family living in Spain ,I have to say that we have been somewhat taken aback by the overtly ignorant /racist attitudes in Spain. You only have to look at how some of the Spanish treat their black football players ,to see that racism is alive and well here.
Time will change some attitudes ,but lets not kid ourselves!
ValenciaSon
28 May 07 at 11:36 am
I have heard that about black footballers in Spain and how some left Spain, despite being under contract with a club in Spain because of the racist treatment they and their families received. The attacks didn’t just come from ultra sur and other skinhead-type groups but from local businesses and the local populace. Is this present in every case where there is footballer of color in Spain? No but once or more times is enough to make mention of it. Spain may have more immigration than before but it still is a fairly homogeneous country and it still has a lot to learn about not only tolerance to difference but embracing diversity.
Theresa
28 May 07 at 5:06 pm
I have lived in Spain for over 14 years, and of course there is racism, just like there is racism in any other country and there are rude people all over the world. My husband, who is Spanish, was treated quite badly by some ignorant people because he was “foreign” when he was doing his postdoc in the U.S. I have come across rude people in Portugal, France, England, Holland and Belgium, as well as wonderfully open, tolerant ,well-mannered ones. The two examples given here, while unfortunate, are by no means the attitude of Spaniards in general. Obviously, Spain has much to learn about tolerance, but I think none of us is in a position to cast the first stone.
John
28 May 07 at 8:14 pm
My opinion: Everywhere you go, the working class is more racist than the middle class. In Spain, the working class is in general quite racist. The middle class is basically not racist, but racist speech in Spain generally does not cause scandal even among non-racists. Most obvious examples: Racist mocking of black football players is not yet socially unacceptable, nor is the use of words like “moro,” “negrata,” and “sudaca.” Even middle-class people who are generally non-racist tend to dislike gypsies, who are definitely at the bottom of the heap in Spain.
ValenciaSon
30 May 07 at 12:56 pm
If no one casts the first the stone, racism continues unscathed.
MarÃa Madrid
2 Jun 07 at 9:59 pm
Frank said: "The Spanish have not dealt with immigration for very long.â€
Only since the year 711! The Spanish have not got a very good track record when it comes to dealing with immigrants.
Well, I don’t think being invaded is the same as immigrate.
I don’t think Americans from Spanish speaking countries considered Spaniards as immigrants when they “moved” there in the XVth century. Do people in Britain think of the vikings as immigrants? Did the Turks immigrate to Greece? No, that was about war not about people peacefully trying to start a more prosperous life in another country.
The fact is Spain immigration has been very very limited until recently. For instance, my father has told me there were lots of Chinese immigrants in Madrid until the beginning of the Civil War but then it was time for the Spaniards to be emigrants for some decades (France, Germany, Switzerland). There were some Filipinno immigrants in the 70′s, political refugees in the 80′s… but it’s the first time Spain is really dealing with immigration.
Maybe everything has happened too fast for some people to adjust to the new situation: so many people moving here in such a short time, no effective immigration policies (if any). On top of that some people are just plain morons…
morghanne
13 Oct 07 at 3:39 am
wwwwwwwwoooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww! i am amazed by this message.
Jorge
20 Dec 07 at 8:28 pm
Well, I don’t know why Spain finds it hard to accept other cultures, especially hispanic countries that are out of South America like the carribean.
No one told their ancestors to have sex with the natives on our respectable islands, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Canary Islands… Etc, Etc. I mean all hispanic people in other countries are descendants from Spaniards because the Spanish language belonged only to that country. Now theres a bunch of countries that speak spanish including most of South America, and we just didn’t learn it from outside sources lol.
So I don’t know about the racism about non-hispanic people, but all hispanic people have one thing in common and that is the language. I never been to Spain but I don’t know how anyone at all could be hypocrital towards their own people.
Mark
19 Jan 08 at 4:32 pm
Hello
All. I seen this post seams to have started way back in May. I found this because am looking to go back to Spain for good.
So I been looking on racism if I can handle it for the rest of my days. Am Black British,
and I have lived in Spain for almost two years up to seven months ago.
I have experienced racism that I have never experienced ever in England. And I have seen things I only read in old American black history books.
Funny though, but an intelligent person knows not everyone is the same, so I met some really nice Spanish people too that made all the difference.
But I have some video shots I took of some events, and I am not talking about Semana Santa because the Spaniards tell me it does not mean KKK and laughed, and some never even heard of em.
But I did go to a festivel where saw a population larger then anything I have ever seen in Nottinghill by a long shot. I did not see a single black face for miles to come, not a single black head in a crowd that looked as big as a football stadium if not bigger.
I did not see a mixed ethinic crowed on the floats, nor any woman (and it was not a gay event), just men in costums and men dressed up as women telling stories in chants and songs.
…and I have to say, though it did not bother me that I would of died that day, I believe in making a difference. But one old woman in front of me did say to me shouting and pointing “Nigga Nigga Nigga Nigga…” on an on and on.
And What more am I supposed to say, I expected more intelligence in the year 2007, so all I said “Mucho Gracias”, she was absolutely shocked, and almost fell backwards and was said something as to ask a question, but I did not know what she said “as I had only been a week in Spain up till then”. So I just left.
To cut a long story short though, when I said “Mucho Gracias” the music stopped playing and the crowed stopped and stared and I heard lots of gasps of shock.
Now its funny because she had four daughters with her, and they smilled at me, in a way and I could see they were not too happy about their mums attitude.
So I went back to my hotel, and went back towards Gibralter and showed my mates, Brits, Giblitarians, Italians, and my other good mate from Greece, and they said to me, “its strange, I never seen a festival like this before neither”.
One person yesterday said I should write a book of some to things I seen, but I said well I was only their for almost two years.
I also had other instances of strange racism, some of my Brits had to back me up because the Guardia Saville Polica seamed a bit trigger happy.
On one other occasion an British lady whom speaks good Spanish caught me in a situation when two Policia Local stopped me in a dark in an empty street, and I it was as if they was looking for some Hill billy action. She said a few words to them that seams to scare them off.
So well, I like to take risks, but I feel sorry for Spain because I know about economics and internation business and what they are about to go through in regards to immigration, it would have been in their best interest if it happened say 70 years ago.
Here is another funny thing the only black people I saw was like immigrants that were selling like CDs and watches.
Well so when I go into a Spanish restuarant I am not surprised the Spanish get confused, they dont know how to take me until I speak.
But they usually know by the way I dress. But after you been in Spain for a while and live there you tend to obviously where the local clothing. So then things just get more complicated, but what the heck, I still prefure the Sun, the lifestyle and the women are truely the most beautiful in the world.
All I can say is buena suerte a España.
Mark
19 Jan 08 at 4:37 pm
Sorry about my above grammar and spelling, I always type in a hurry.
Carlos
14 Oct 08 at 1:25 am
Mark:
Really sorry that your experience of Spain was such a negative one in terms of racism…
However, there are a few signs in your post that make one thing that you really did not understand much of what was going on around you, and that your exposure to Spanish people and the Spanish language was, at best, a bit superficial.
I mean, you claim that you have lived in Spain for almost two years and yet your version of “muchas gracias” is “mucho gracias”. It is as if you had lived in England for two years and at the end of that period all you managed to say for “thank you” was something like “thongs ya”. Sorry, but I have to say it: it really seems hard to believe.
The sort of parade or celebration you describe in your post sounds a lot like carnival… Did no one explain to you what it was about? Moreover, did the old woman really shout “nigger” at you? Again, hard to believe… Ok, perhaps she was an old ignorant cow that new that term of abuse in English, but then again she might also have been someone that did not know your name and was calling your attention by using a descriptive term that has by no means the same insulting connotations as “nigger”, which is “negro”. It is not exactly politically correct to use it, OK, but to many people it would just describe your appearance/racial origin (no more, no less), which she used unaware of its possible consequences for lack of a better one. It is as if she had cried “hey, blondie, blondie”, if you were blond. That would explain her reaction… She was shocked. Probably because she did not understand why you had taken offence, when she was just calling you.
And, if you manage to bring to a stop a band and a whole lot of revellers just by uttering one line, I must congratulate you: you must have a hell of a voice. I wish I could say the same about myself.
I have very little experience of black people coming to live in or to visit Spain, the only two exceptions being two teenage exchange students from the USA staying with one of my brothers. In both cases they were shocked at how there was no one black in the streets apart from African street vendors, and they felt quite intimidated at the way some people looked at them -sheer brazen curiosity, I can assure you. One of them even came back home one night feeking totally miserable declaring that she did not want to be taken for one of those dispossessed Africans (quite a xenophobic comment on her part), and that her grandmother had told her that the only black women in Spain were Domenican prostitutes. I remember trying to calm her down by telling her my own experience in Thailand, and how I felt unconfortable because I was different to everyone… It is not a case of being black, white, red or yellow. It is a case of people who are uncommon generating attention. So, the bottomline is (without denying the fact that there are racist people in Spain as elsewhere in the world), very often your experience of a country hinges on what you make of it, your attitude, your expectations, your fears, your preconceptions and how well you understand that country.
But now that I come to think of it, I have a mulatto Cuban friend who has come to visit me in the small village where I live and everybody has been extremely friendly to him.
Having said all the above, since I love my country, I would like to see a nation-wide campaign against racism. Not that I think we are more racist in comparision to other Western countries, but because morons should not be given a moment of truce anywhere.
Jay
10 Apr 09 at 6:14 pm
I have never placed a comment on any of these types of sites but Carlos’ comment has urged me to. I am a black British woman born in South London and I have been living in La Linea South of Spain for 2 years and I have experienced more racism in my 2 years living in Spain than my 28 years living in England. Now in response to Carlos’ comment that the lady may have been shouting negro and not nigger makes no difference if a Spanish person wishes to address you by the colour of your skin in a “nice way” they will call you moreno/a when they use negro/a they mean it as an insult! Also Carlos you mentioned that Mark had typed mucho instead of muchas well you have made several spelling/grammar mistakes in your comment but no one’s perfect. But turning to my own experience here I have found that the older population have been very welcoming and kind to me but the youngsters are very ignorant some boy about 14 or 15 tried to spit at me but my friend got hold of him and told him some stern words in Spanish and he ran like a frightened mouse also another young Spanish boy told me all negras are whores!
From what I have experienced in the last 2 years is that the people in bigger towns are obviously not so ignorant because I never experienced any racism whilst living in Malaga for 6 months. I still love being in Spain I ignore the bigots and ignorant people and enjoy the great weather and lovely friends I have made. I am planning to move to Barcelona or Madrid as I would like to teach English and stop working in mini England (Gibraltar) I just hope I experience less racism there!
Jaume d'Escriu
13 Apr 09 at 5:11 pm
Spanish people are less racists than the people in next countries.
For spaniards and soutamerican people a drop of white blood makes you white.
But most spaniards are extremely xenophobic especially against people who don’t speak spanish.
And this problem has increased with southamerican inmigration who are also spanish language lovers and chineese inmigration that are spanish language phobic.