Comment from spaniard
Time: August 15, 2007, 8:12 am

Hi ben, I just want to comment that your blog is full stereotypes and lies.

Comment from Frank
Time: August 15, 2007, 9:23 am

Spaniard, you have the perfect vehicle here to redress the balance, and give us your opinion. We’d like to hear it. I’d have thought that this group was full of people that are big fans of Spain, the Spanish and the Spanish language, but some things still come across to us as “different”. It’s a fact the the Spanish do not use “please” and “thank you” as much as us, but that doesn’t mean they are rude, just that they are different. I have read that the Spanish find us patronising for using “please” and “thank you” so much. It´s very normal in Spain to say “póngame un café/ponme un café/deme un paquete de .. ¿Qué va a tomar? Un café. Whilst that is perfectly normal in Spain, to us, without any please or thank you, it seems a bit “rude”. We are all different.

Comment from Edith
Time: August 15, 2007, 10:15 am

I think it’s mainly a language thing; Spanish people are not deliberately being rude. In Holland we don’t use the word ‘please’ that often, either, although we use forms similar to ‘cuando puedas’. (’can/could I have…?’).

Personally, I really like the Anglo-Saxon custom of saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’. But cultures are different from one another, and so are languages.

Think of the word ‘coño’, which is used quite often in Spain. In Spanish culture, saying ‘coño’ is not a big deal at all, but its English equivalent is considered to be totally taboo! In Spain, this word seems to conjure up much more innocent connotations. You hear it all the time.

Comment from davidp
Time: August 15, 2007, 11:28 am

I agree: we don’t say “please” or “thank you” at the end of every phrase. But it doesn’t mean that we are rude.

We have different ways to ask for something. A “rude-way” of asking for the salt: “pásame la sal!” (imperative) and a more educated way of asking for the salt: “¿me pasas la sal?/¿me puedes pasar la sal?”. We don’t need to say “please” at the end… But we will add the “please” at the end if we ask for the salt 10 times and you don’t give us the salt. Then we will say “¿me pasas la sal, POR FAVOR?”.

Comment from Ben
Time: August 15, 2007, 11:57 am

@spaniard, I think you missed this bit at the end: “Does this make the Spanish rude, or just different? I suspect the answer is the latter”.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 15, 2007, 11:59 am

I’m a big believer in it isn’t what you say but how you say it that is important. I think there can be excesses at both ends. I would expect to hear por favor after the nth request but I don’t feel it necessary to say please for any request, no matter how miniscule or infrequent. One can say thanks and please without becoming Emily Post.

Comment from MattBCN
Time: August 15, 2007, 5:16 pm

The word ‘por favor’ still has a meaning in Spain, I really like that. But why don’t the Spanish use this word as often as we do? Some personal observations:

- In general the Spaniards are less formal. ‘Please’ is quite a formal expression.
- In order to be liked, we are taught to be nice to other people. Saying ‘please’ all the time is very nice. In Latin cultures it is more appreciated to be divertido (funny).
- A real macho is not going to ask for a favor. Not that the Spanish are machos, but it could be an echo of old customs. When you ask for a favor, you put yourself in a ‘lower’ position. Without the ‘por favor’ it is much more like a task than a question.

What do you think?

Comment from luke
Time: August 15, 2007, 5:30 pm

I find this situation very difficult in Spain. There are some Spaniards I know, that think I’m being a snob by saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ more than they do. Some of them have an impression of the English as feeling superior to others and their ‘over politeness’ shows this. I’ve really been hammered by a angry Spanish woman for the awful English being ‘too polite’. Of course, the English want to show their gratitude and show that they are respectful by being ‘polite’. It seems to have the opposite effect on some Spanish. If I say ‘thank you’ too much, to friends and relatives, they say it is like I’m treating them as a waiter. Sometimes I have to bite my lip and hold back the years of training my mother gave me.

Comment from Brandon
Time: August 15, 2007, 6:21 pm

The whole thing reminds me of a quote from a French movie called ‘Les Poupees Russes’ (The Russian Dolls):
“…and he said to me, “Problem with you English guys is, you’re always saying ‘I’m sorry.’ All the time, you’re saying ‘I’m sorry about this, I’m sorry about that.’” And you know what? It’s actually true. We do say “I’m sorry” too much. What can I say? We’re sorry. I said to him, “I’m sorry about that. I apologize. But that’s it, you know? Nobody’s perfect.”
It’s a funny little bit and a reminder of all the cultural and language tendencies we take for granted. I’d have to agree that the Spanish tendency to drop please and thank you is simply different than Anglo or American culture. Besides, if someone says, “Dáme un café,” it’s not hard to know that he doesn’t mean any malice toward the waiter; he just wants some coffee!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 15, 2007, 8:08 pm

I guess we have to be careful in not letting ourselves think that our way is the reference point for which others should use and remember to lend equal amounts of legitimacy to other practices based on other perspectives.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 15, 2007, 8:13 pm

Oh my god ! This blog is very funny, I dont know matt, luke and brandon, and I dont know if they are the same person, but you three have a great future as comedians.

keep it going ben, the black legend still alive after 400 years. I hope you make a lot money.

And Ben, the lies in this blog are not about the spanish, your lies are about english people.

“Please” dont stop this blog, its fun to have a laugh from time to time.

“Sorry” for my english.

“Thank you”.

Comment from krasnybor
Time: August 15, 2007, 8:17 pm

Oh my god ! This blog is very funny, I dont know matt, luke and brandon, and I dont know if they are the same person, but you three have a great future as comedians.

keep it going ben, the black legend still alive after 400 years. I hope you make a lot money.

And Ben, the lies in this blog are not about the spanish, your lies are about english people.

“Please” dont stop this blog, its fun to have a laugh from time to time.

“Sorry” for my english.

“Thank you”.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 15, 2007, 11:45 pm

Libreopinion and Democracianacional must not be setting the fields of tolerance on fire.

Comment from Edith
Time: August 16, 2007, 1:51 am

Please read this, thank you:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=3250348&postcount=25

Comment from american
Time: August 16, 2007, 3:04 am

Jo…sometimes I don’t understand why people leave ridiculous comments here. I do not agree with “spaniard”. I am not sure how long this person has been part of this online community but it’s patente that dicha persona doesn’t quite get that there was nothing malicious meant. The blog is about sharing views and exploring cultural differences so all parts benefit. All I want to say is TRANQUILO. No one is out to get the other.

Comment from american
Time: August 16, 2007, 3:05 am

And regarding the last entry of Ben’s post. Un poquito de por favor is Emilio’s favorite line on Aqui no hay quien viva. Adivina para que sirve.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 7:55 am

Ben, do you know whats your problem ? This blog have become a bussiness for you. And you are not very different of the desesperate freelance people working in madrid for agencies like associeted press and others. You have to keep people coming to this blog and that makes you write the silly things and the lies that you write here.

Comment from parubin
Time: August 16, 2007, 8:58 am

The truth is that we, Spaniards, are both rude and different.

It is not only a language thing as spanish speaking people from latin america are, by far, more polite and well mannered than us, using the same Spanish language.

Comment from luke
Time: August 16, 2007, 9:20 am

Spaniard, I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick, most people here love Spain and are relating their genuine experiences. It would be more interesting to hear your real experiences.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 9:31 am

Edith, you have to stop watching the bbc and going to places around liverpool, you will see there normal english people, and not the fake culture that the bbc show you.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 10:24 am

The bbc is a very interesting national public television, Its the only one in the world that has a totally different accent that the rest of the country.

Comment from Ben
Time: August 16, 2007, 10:36 am

“you have to stop watching the bbc and going to places around liverpool, you will see there normal english people”

- Why would anyone go to Liverpool when they can just watch the excellent ‘Shameless’ instead? (Note to Liverpudlians, only joking! Though the series is rather good )

Comment from Ben
Time: August 16, 2007, 10:38 am

“You have to keep people coming to this blog and that makes you write the silly things and the lies that you write here.”

- Actually, that is not the case. Why did I write this post? I wrote it after a Spanish person was rude to me and I was in a bit of a bad mood. Also because it is something I hear people talking about all the time and I thought it was particularly interesting.

Comment from Ben
Time: August 16, 2007, 10:41 am

“It is not only a language thing as spanish speaking people from latin america are, by far, more polite and well mannered than us, using the same Spanish language.”

@parubin - that is a very interesting comment. Thanks for the insight.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 11:05 am

parubin comment is …very funny. Im not going to lose my with you.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 11:25 am

Ok ben, thats my opinion, you are free to believe in the stereotypes of your country, many cultures have this problem, many cultures really believe in their own sterotypes, many times created by themselves.

I will you an idea for the next text- I think you english like very much the word ” mañana” .

You can write another funny text about this.

bye bye.

Comment from Edith
Time: August 16, 2007, 11:44 am

@ Spaniard, if you think Ben is being harsh on the Spanish, you should take a look at some of these discussion threads. They are not about Spain but that’s not relevant here:

http://my.expatica.com/c:nl/forum/viewforum.php?f=121&sid=bdc89b0d852c5ff569fb2bb0054aa5d0

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 12:01 pm

Edith, you still have not understand me. You can read up there that i say to ben that hes not lyiang about the spanish. hes lyiang about the english.

Yes, thanks for the link, as you can see in that forum, the english people are not in the heaven of politeness, they can be rude, uneducated and on and on .

Thats why i find ben very funny and i laugh about some sentences he writes.

He really believes in the stereotypes of english people have created for themselves

Comment from Beckett
Time: August 16, 2007, 12:14 pm

It’s definitely a cultural thing. I agree 100% with what Parubin said. Latin Americans, in general, say “por favor” and “gracias” more frequently in everyday contexts like English speakers and, are generally, way more polite than Spaniards. Also, the tone of voice that they use when making requests, like in a bar or a restaurant, isn’t as abrupt and harsh sounding as the typical Spaniard.

Comment from Ben
Time: August 16, 2007, 12:34 pm

spaniard - find my video on respect to see what I think about some English attitudes! No rose tinted glasses looking longlingly to blighty here

Comment from Edith
Time: August 16, 2007, 1:05 pm

@ Beckett

RE ‘abrupt and harsh sounding’: this could be a cultural pitfall - the intention behind those words may not be what we think it is.

In some cultures, people tend to hide their true feelings behind a friendly smile. They could actually be very angry at you without you ever knowing about it.

I have spent some time on an Israeli kibbutz, and at first I thought the kibbutz members were constantly quarreling with each other, shouting at the top of their voice. They often sounded kind of harsh without really meaning to. The official nickname for Israelis is ’sabra’, which refers to the prickly pear (= nopal cactus fruit): prickly on the outside, soft on the inside. Of course, this is a bit of a cliché too but at least it shows some self-awareness on their part.

My experiences in Israel have made me more aware of cultural differences, which can be very deceiving sometimes.

Yes, customer service in Spain isn’t always what I would like it to be but I have also met shop attendants who were very nice and polite. Last year a shop attendant at the Corte Inglés gave me a small book for free because she was delighted by my interest in Cervantes!

Comment from leftbanker
Time: August 16, 2007, 1:06 pm

The flip side of this “please” and “thank you” bit is that Americans don’t acknowledge other people in an elevator. Spanish people always say “hola” and “Hasta luego” to fellow elevator patrons. In America we just pretend like the other people aren’t there. When I explain this to Spanish friends they just can’t believe we could be so rude. I’m all for being more polite and more friendly and I don’t care which culture/language I have to steal from to do it.

Hasta luego, thank you, and excuse me (I just belched).

Comment from Edith
Time: August 16, 2007, 1:16 pm

Interesting observation, Leftbanker. I bet Americans hate standing closely together in an elevator, so do northern Europeans. Personal body space is less of an issue in Mediterranean countries, perhaps this explains why Spaniards behave in a more outgoing fashion while riding the elevator?

Comment from parubin
Time: August 16, 2007, 1:21 pm

@ leftbanker
That’s true. When you leave a shop, bar, supermarket, gas station, or anyother place in Spain whe usually say goodbye (”adiós” or “hasta luego”) to the assistant/bartender… even if it is the first (and maybe last) time in that establishment.

I don´t think people in the US or UK would say “bye” or “see you later” to unknown assistants as often as we, in Spain, do.

@ Edith
Customer Service of Spanish Companies are seldomly based in Spain. Most Spanish Companies (at least the big ones) have offshore customer service based in places like Argentina, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador or elsewhere (even in Morrocco where they don´t speak Spanish as first language).

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 16, 2007, 1:33 pm

@ leftbanker: I’m sorry, were you saying something?

Comment from Niels
Time: August 16, 2007, 1:36 pm

To me, there seems to be a difference between Anglo-German-American zones and more Mediterranean areas… My friends in Madrid from e.g. the UK, Germany, Scandinavia etc. just couldn’t get over the Spanish “rudeness” which they had never experienced in any other country… I just kept telling them “go live in Athens for a couple of months”, where this supposed rudeness is given a whole new dimension, with waiters and shop attendants not talking to/looking at you at all, and when they do, they scream as if you just made a very indecent proposal or they seem to be just plain annoyed with you… (my apologies to any Greeks, I am not out to stereotype, these are my own observations after living there).
I have gradually come to realize that many pleases and thankyous are part of a “theatre play” we put on in the North… it has little to do with genuine friendliness - after all, you just want your coffee! If you do not play your part, either as a provider or a customer, you are looked upon as “a rude person”. It appears to me that Mediterranean countries have simply faced reality and deal with it accordingly, getting rid of “dead weight” in a conversation. Or could it be that customers are afraid to get lousy service if they say “por favor” and “gracias” too much? That they come off as push-overs that waiters can treat as they see fit?
There is also a huge difference between large (capital) cities and smaller villages, the latter acting in a far more “sophisticated” way…
In the end, I have to say that service in both Greece and Spain, after all the talking is done, has always been top-notch, infinitely superior to anything that I have known in the Netherlands. And in the end, that’s what counts right?

Comment from Beckett
Time: August 16, 2007, 2:01 pm

Leftbanker,
Regarding the elevator…have you ever been inside an elevator in Spain? They’re generally the size of a shoebox! How can you NOT say hello to the person whose backside is pressed against your belly?! Elevators in the U.S. are generally roomy, with room for five or more people and space to spare. My experience, living in NYC, is that the smaller the elevator, the more likely it is that people say “hello” or give some kind of acknowledgement, especially if the elevator is in a residential building. In a corporate or commercial building in the U.S., where the elevators can house as many as 10 people at a time, there is generally no desire or need to exchange greetings, unless the people recognize/know each other.

Once again, context is key to understanding culture cues/behavior.

Comment from Beckett
Time: August 16, 2007, 2:11 pm

Funny, true story…last year while teaching English to Spaniards, I played some audio of different native English speakers asking for directions. The point of the exercise was to listen to the audio, take notes and then discuss as a class which of the speakers on the recording had asked politely or not. It was fascinating because there were a couple of audio clips where the native English speaker practically barked their request and said in a sarcastic tone of voice things like “please” and “could you.” However, more than one of my Spanish students insisted that the English person was being polite because they had said “please.”

There were other audio clips where the English speaker did not say “please” or “thank you” but from the tone of their voice it was clear, to any fluent English speaker, that they were being polite. However, some of my Spanish students, were befuddled by this. The idea that they would now have to work on their intonation in English was an idea that was frustrating to some. They thought that as long as they said “please” or “could you” or “thank you” that they would sound polite to an English speaker. They didn’t realize that they also have to work on their tone of voice as well.

Comment from leftbanker
Time: August 16, 2007, 2:55 pm

Elevator size may be a part of it but the people in my building here in Spain always say hello in the lobby as well, something Americans—especially New Yorkers—don’t do. People in Spain also bid farewell when they leave a bar or restaurant, much as folks do in France. It would be totally rude not to say “Bonjour” upon entering a café or shop in Paris.

One aspect of this issue that I have a problem with is the sort of forced, corporate-induced “friendliness” in American businesses such as restaurants. Friendliness to me signifies friendship, generally not a relationship that I require of someone who is bringing me food and drink. We seem to have a problem distinguishing between courtesy and friendliness. The brilliant (at times) comedy, Office Space, captures this sort of over-the-top, forced courtesy in American eateries with the nauseatingly cheerful waiter kid.

Comment from Beckett
Time: August 16, 2007, 3:05 pm

Well, it seems like Americans can’t win when it comes to anything related to Europe. If they’re friendly, it’s viewed as fake. If they don’t engage in pleasantries, they’re viewed as arrogant and rude. Oh well.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 3:29 pm

Oh my god, Is this really a serious conversation ?
Am I talking with highschollers ? What is this ?

Elevators, size, greece, anglo-german ¿? lol.

Do you know what ben ? You have to think about writing on different topics, I liked very much the video blog about thailand, You said not long time ago that you were going out of ideas, and you know very well why, i was not sorprised that you wrote about gibraltar, but this kind of topics are very limited and you have started to repeat them.

bye.

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 16, 2007, 3:35 pm

ohh, its 4:34 pm and im not taking a siesta !!!

What a bad spaniard i am.

Comment from Edith
Time: August 16, 2007, 3:53 pm

@ Beckett

I hope you weren’t offended by my post about cultural miscommunication, I didn’t mean to patronize you and I’m not trying to be an Eurosnob.

I for one do not think that Americans or Japanese (the people I was actually hinting at in my first example) are somehow faking it. Deep down, we probably all have similar emotions even if our culture dictates different kinds of outward behavior.

IMO, Americans are such a diverse lot it’s impossible to make any kind of sweeping statement about them as a nation, anyway.

Its true that many Europeans tend to have certain preconceived notions about Americans which can be woefully wrong as well as downright offensive.

I have spent some time in the US and my experiences were mostly very positive. Many people tend to be friendly and outgoing, and I found it easy to relate to them. The same applies to many Americans I meet in the forums, btw!

Comment from Stuart
Time: August 16, 2007, 4:14 pm

“ohh, its 4:34 pm and im not taking a siesta !!!

What a bad spaniard i am. ”

I have to say, that’s pretty funny!

Comment from Niels
Time: August 16, 2007, 5:05 pm

Spaniard lighten up, these are all generalizations and subjective and everyone acknowledges that… for instance, I find you to be very friendly and polite, so there you go!

Comment from Frank
Time: August 16, 2007, 5:22 pm

“Edith, you still have not understand me. You can read up there that i say to ben that hes not lyiang about the spanish. hes lyiang about the english.

Yes, thanks for the link, as you can see in that forum, the english people are not in the heaven of politeness, they can be rude, uneducated and on and on .

Thats why i find ben very funny and i laugh about some sentences he writes.”

You’re not doing too badly yourself, Spaniard, you’ve certainly given me the best laugh I have had in ages. “Heaven of politeness”, what is all that about?

Comment from Jon Hundt
Time: August 16, 2007, 6:21 pm

sounds to me like Spaniard has had a few too many (you can see it coming on in his messages! his spelling just gets more creative by the minute) Yeah, it’s about time you took a nap, baby…

You’re too nice Ben, any other moderator would have 86′ed this jackass by now.

Comment from Jon Hundt
Time: August 16, 2007, 6:23 pm

Ha-ha! I just looked back at the title of this entry….

Are the Spanish rude…?

Well, judging by “Spaniard” I guess we have an answer!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 16, 2007, 6:47 pm

New Yorkers are friendly. We just have to budget our human interactions because of living in a city of 8.5 million.

Comment from Graeme
Time: August 16, 2007, 7:36 pm

“Are the Spanish rude…?

Well, judging by “Spaniard” I guess we have an answer!”

It would be a terrible shame if people got the opinion that his behaviour is in any way representative of Spanish people in general. I can’t understand why someone with so much time on their hands doesn’t take a siesta!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 16, 2007, 10:13 pm

Are the Spanish rude because Spaniard was a little on edge? Let me sleep on it.

Comment from Margot
Time: August 17, 2007, 1:21 am

I think I “walk in a Spaniards shoes” whenever I’m put through to Customer Service outserviced to India. If - to the Spaniards - Americans and British overdo the “thank yous” and “pleases” it’s nothing as compared to the “politeness” of the Indians.
Their “politeness” drives me round the bend. It weighs down communication and problem solving and tends to infuriate me. (I must admit I’m usually already in a bad mood since my phone call is being prompted by a complaint.)
Still - I wonder whether its a similar sense of meaningless bloat and empty verbiage to which the Spaniards object? If so - I can really understand their annoyance with us. PLEASE consider the foregoing. THANK YOU for indulging me with your kind attention
3 winking laughing smilies go here but I don’t have a clue how to import them (o no vale la pena) so PLEASE use your imagination…..THANK YOU

Comment from Edith
Time: August 17, 2007, 1:35 am

Margos, you can create a smilie here by using : - )
—>

Comment from Edith
Time: August 17, 2007, 1:36 am

Margot, you can create a smilie here by using : - )
—>

Comment from Jules
Time: August 17, 2007, 8:18 am

So, in Spain, if you have just passed the salt to a Spaniard sitting at another table or the waiter has brought him/her drinks what would be the typical response from a Spaniard?

Comment from Graeme
Time: August 17, 2007, 10:42 am

“what would be the typical response from a Spaniard?”

Grrrrrrr…….acias!

Pingback from Can the Spanish take criticism? - Notes from Spain: Travel, Living in Spain, Podcasts, Forum and Photos
Time: August 17, 2007, 10:55 am

[…] Wednesday’s post on how the Spanish don’t tend to use please and thank you too much is looking like the most commented on post ever here at Notes from Spain, partly due to […]

Comment from María
Time: August 18, 2007, 2:44 pm

This is all a generalisation, imho, although I have no problems accepting we’re rude. I think anyway it’s an understandable missperception.
From a linguistic point of view, and being a Spaniard who’s been teaching Spanish as a foreign language for a living all my life, I’d say that we’re missing several points that may not be understood by people who don’t have Spanish as their mother tongue, as in my case my brain doesn’t process what I’m told in other languages in the same way as it processes anything in Spanish.

First, the use of the respect form “usted”, with a huge meaning of politeness and respect that it’s now being lost in the new generations…; I personally find it odd when I can’t use in English something similar when addressing old people or in shops, so I make myself sure I stick a “please” at the end or massivelly use Would everywhere. But the thing is… we also have in Spanish an equivalent to Would in our conditional tense. The tone of the voice is very important as well when you’re asking for things in Spanish, as it’s the expression in your face or your eyes. Other things I miss when abroad is greeting people you don’t know whenever you arrive to or leave shops or other public places. Living with an Englishman who some time ago he found that “general greeting” an extremely amusing characteristic in Spain only confirmed my “theories”, I consider it very rude when you don’t!

Comment from Jules
Time: August 18, 2007, 6:05 pm

María’s comment above I think is one of the most relevant to this whole thread.
I would imagine that the ‘built in’ politeness in many Spanish conversations could well be lost on even non-native ‘advanced’ Spanish speakers - even if, like Ben, they have lived in Spain for years.

Comment from Roberto
Time: August 18, 2007, 8:15 pm

Bravo Maria, por fin alguien que dice algo inteligente. Hay miles de sutiles formas en español de ser educado o grosero que no tienen traduccion directa al ingles…

No somos ni mejores ni peores que otros, ni somos tan diferentes.

ben, me defraudas, has caido en el sensacionalismo facil, pero lo entiendo, hay que comer, ¿verdad amigo?

Comment from spaniard
Time: August 18, 2007, 10:02 pm

A mi no me defrauda ben, el sensacionalismo barato es la marca de la prensa inglesa.

A mi me defrauda marina, como se puede caer tan bajo para ganar unos euros.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 18, 2007, 11:09 pm

Que responsabilidad de ser tan perfecto, Spaniard.

Comment from Edith
Time: August 18, 2007, 11:11 pm

@ Spaniard, when I click on your name I get to see a neo-Nazi video… what exactly are you trying to prove here?

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 18, 2007, 11:31 pm

Not just neo-nazi but also anti-semitic. Spaniard are you an ultra-sur?Does it bother you that non-white football players play in Spain?

Comment from Ben
Time: August 19, 2007, 12:28 am

@Roberto - si comiera de esto, poco engordaria, tio

Comment from Ilse
Time: August 23, 2007, 10:27 am

I definitely do not have all knowledge, but I am Belgian and have lived several years in France, UK and now Spain. I do not consider the Spaniards rude, just because they do not seem to use “por favor” that often. I tend to find that in English “please” really indicates something extra, because “you” is both formal and informal use, while in French, Spanish… you already indicate politeness, respect etc by using the formal form. Apart from that, there are differences, as there are in all of the languages / countries (note that even French is spoken in Belgium and in France, habits are not the same, just like Dutch in Belgium / Holland…)…I only want to indicate a few :
* In France it is not done to say more than once a day “hello” to the same person (I remember an English student saying hello every single time)…does that make the French rude? I don’t think so.
* Spaniards tend to talk louder than the English, which makes already an impression they might be angry (I remember waiters in UK restaurants coming to ask whether everything was OK plenty of times, because they thought we were having a fight)
* Most of the English are very talented in “wrapping up” the negative things, i.e. they will say more likely something is “interesting” when they do not like it, while Spaniards will say straight out they hate it…according to me, both are extremes which do not indicate anything really. Does it make the English more polite? I’m not sure…

Bottom line…I guess these often subtile differences make it really interesting to discover the real country and its habits.

Comment from Ed
Time: August 29, 2007, 10:18 pm

“Hi ben, I just want to comment that your blog is full stereotypes and lies.”

I think you’re the one full of both.

True, people do use “gracias” and “por favor” less often here. Although being Spanish I grew up abroad; whenever I’m at restaurant I get the feeling I’m overusing the word “gracias”.

However, I do realise it’s not matter of rudeness, that’s simply the way the Spanish language is.

Btw, French and German also have their own “usted”…

Comment from Ed
Time: August 29, 2007, 10:19 pm

“Hi ben, I just want to comment that your blog is full stereotypes and lies.”

Hi, I think you’re the one full of both.

True, people do use “gracias” and “por favor” less often here. Although being Spanish I grew up abroad; whenever I’m at restaurant I get the feeling I’m overusing the word “gracias”.

However, I do realise it’s not matter of rudeness, that’s simply the way the Spanish language is.

Btw, French and German also have their own “usted”…

Comment from nuria
Time: August 30, 2007, 1:05 pm

wow, what a contraversy we have going on here, I think to be rude you don´t necessarily need to be from any country.

I was born and raised in Spain but lived int eh US for along time and now back here in Spain, it is true that Americans do you “please” and “thank you” a lot more than the Spanish, and I could see how language could be part of the problem here, but again being rude comes in all shapes and colors..

Comment from Juan
Time: November 4, 2007, 4:59 pm

We need to separate culture and language. (Ben mentioned this earlier…) I do not agree that it is a function of the language. I am a Latin American who has lived in most of my life in the US, but have lived briefly in Spain and Latin America. I have traveled throughout Latin America and have rarely been treated rudely. In Spain, it is an almost daily experience.
In Latin America (excluding regional differences), we still use Usted often. We have not lost it, as have young Spaniards, nor does it imply old age or archaic formality. In Spain, the only time I was ever addressed as Usted was in some more elegant stores or in Andalusia. (I must admit, I am 30 so older Spaniards would who are more likely to have used it for my father would not for me.) However, in Latin America (and the US) any educated Spanish speaker (and most uneducated) would have referred to me using Ud.
Secondly, in Latin America (and the US) we use por favor and gracias (and dozens of other versions) as often if not more than English. We are also more formal and polite in general - I have noticed this personally when in Spain, I speak briefly and curtly (what to me would be rude outside of Spain) so as not to annoy Spanish ‘camareros’, store attendants or business people. For those of you that think that please and thank you is annoying, Please excuse me, I am sorry :)…but stay out of Mexico, Colombia, Bolivia, Argentina, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Guatemala, Nicaragua …places I have either been to or have close friends and they are similar to me in perspective. I currently live in South Florida, USA, if you want to be treated rudely by Spanish speakers, come here
My point is that Spanish rudeness is culture. I have several close Spanish friends and many acquaintances. They are generous and gregarious. But in day to day interactions, I find I have to laugh at how rude Spaniards can be otherwise I would be getting upset all day.
(I must also add that I am white, and speak English with a American accent - i have no latin american accent. I can pass as a ‘yanqui’ or ‘gringo’ if I choose - I imagine a more native looking mexican or south american might have a different experience.)

Comment from Monica
Time: December 12, 2007, 4:32 pm

I’m Spaniard (like you say) but i don think I’m rude, I say ‘please’ and ‘thanks’ when I ask for or I receive something. Perhaps the trouble is that when you listen what other people says it is because they are shouting and people who shouts is rude people (Spanish, English or Chinesse)

Comment from Joan
Time: January 2, 2008, 9:35 pm

Right, they have no moral whatsoever and it shows…in everything they do…they don´t respect rules or laws, they lie and are always comparing themselves with those who have more…they are europeans only geographically…still they feel superior to southamericans… to me they very much behave like rats…their culture is so shallow and cruel.

Comment from sahara
Time: January 24, 2008, 2:35 pm

Joan your comment sounds a bit harsh. I have had the privelage to live in households of several different cultures. I have found that we all so very different, but all very much alike as well. Because of our differences, it is often very difficult or sometimes impossible to understand why people act how they do. We very often understand things incorrectly. What one does to be polite in one culture, may be viewed as comical,weird, or offensive, perhaps even rude. I have seen people almost tear eachother apart by cultural differences and misunderstandings of how ideas and thoughts were presented. When in fact the purpose and intention they had originally was to help the other. We are all different and alot of us lack patience and understanding. We need to be more accepting.

Heal The World?
(Michael Jackson knows what I am talking about… and he is as different as they come! LOL!)

Comment from Maria S.
Time: January 24, 2008, 9:06 pm

I liked Sahara’s comment: “When in fact the purpose and intention they had originally was to help the other.”
This happens due to different cultural perceptions. It just happened to me again recently when I had meant well, but my French/American friend thought I had found fault with him. We spoke the same language, but we were not in the same tune. Worlds apart. Not in language, but in cultural expectations.

Comment from Inigo
Time: January 26, 2008, 9:05 pm

It is really annoying to read the posts of all of these self appointed defenders of the motherland’s pride. They are like a plague in the english speaking forums. They actually illustrate very well the iberian rudeness (barring of course Portugal), so I am going to have my go.

My experience is that I used to get slightly cross as soon as I got exposed to my fellow compatriots approaching the checking in any the british airports. One can distinguish them literally miles away even if they do not articulate word, which typically is very loud. It used to take me a few days to get used to it.

As for the use of “gracias” or “por favor”, others made a good point above when they mentioned the use of the conditional tense. The imperative tense would be equivalent to forget to say please or thank you. Nevertheless, well educated spaniards would still say
“gracias” and “por favor” in many different situations although not to the extreme of English speakers. I do.

There may be a certain disregard for the other in may situations. In general mediterraneans are a lot more individualistic than northern europeans. I do feel a lot more of communal sense in northern europe. But Joan it has nothing to do with morality, something that is inherently subjective and in my opinion shallow, neither with culture. Spanish culture is far more diverse and rich than most of the other europeans. One does not necessarily have to like it, but going down to portrait in such a way spanish people only shows your inmaturity and poor understanding regardless of what the actual experiences that you may had.

Comment from Tom
Time: January 27, 2008, 1:12 pm

Inigo - interesting points. I find that many Spaniards (and plenty of Catalans too, Joan) are happy to use please and thankyou with friends but not, for example, waiters. In fact, I sometimes feel like saying ‘please’ to a waiter is an admission of weakness.

But I’m not sure that I agree about your analysis of ’sense of community’. I’ve found Spaniards and Catalans are far friendlier than the English and you only have too look out on the square in front of my house on a summer’s evening to see how important the concept of community is here.

Plus, socialist and far-right parties (which traditionally appeal to communal values) are both very successful in southern Europe.

Comment from lily
Time: February 11, 2008, 10:17 pm

I recommend reading about Face Threatening Acts and Politeness Theory. It would make things really clear to you. Even though the original theory by Brown and Levinson has been kind of criticized I think the principles are valid till this day.

Comment from PeteBCN
Time: March 1, 2008, 4:00 pm

I know i might be late to the party, but I really felt like joining with a few thoughts.

As Juan and others mention, then people are traditionally much more friendly and polite in The Americas and here in Spain. I’ve been many a times over there, my girlfriend is from there, and i know at least a handfull of people that have told me the same story about how rude the Spaniards seem (probably especially madrilenos, catalans, where people from the north, Asturias, Cantabra, seems more polite)

To recognize that is not being stereotypic, just describing some general tendencies. Speaking of more than one person will always be generalizing.

I think everyone living here has tried to getting for a waiters or clerks attention while they were too busy doing nothing and just ignores you. Then again, how much politeness can you buy for a 700€ monthly salery?

All cultures have something to offer, and we should learn and share this. The first step is to be open and admit ones flaws. Nobody is perfect. Un poco de por favor, gracias

Comment from Irish eyes
Time: March 1, 2008, 5:06 pm

Mmm, this one seems set to run and run.
Surely, the only person qualified to say what constitues rude behaviour in Spain is a Spaniard? And if, as people seem to be saying, tacking ‘Gracias’ or ‘por favor’ onto every statement where we would use their equivilants in English is unnecessary, and might even be interpreted as condescending or false, then that seems a good reason not to do it.
The more rigid you are in keeping old habits, the more likely you are to be misunderstood when living abroad.
For example, my mother in law was Turkish and insisted that it was bad manners for a woman to clear her plate. Hearty eating was expected of men though Every meal we shared, she commented on my ‘rudeness’. Unfortunately, in the UK at that time (early 80’s) a clean plate was one of the highest compliments you could pay the cook and by sticking to what she thought was right, she got a reputation not for being mannerly but for being fussy and hard to please.
‘When in Rome… ‘ as the saying goes.

Comment from Spaniard
Time: April 2, 2008, 12:18 pm

We spaniards are DIRECT people, much less hipocryte and false than you, english!. We spaniards are a far more socialized community that doesnt fear direct contact with people. You are too much “victorian” and double sided!.

Pingback from Are the Spanish Rude #223 - It depends who they are with! - Notes from Spain: Travel, Living in Spain, Podcasts, Forum and Photos
Time: June 17, 2008, 11:40 am

[…] came across this wonderful analysis of the Spanish rude/polite debate over at the mighty Thoughts from Galicia blog: …at the macro level, the Spanish are amongst […]

Comment from Carolina
Time: June 30, 2008, 4:38 pm

ABUSIVE COMMENT REMOVED

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: June 30, 2008, 5:55 pm

Well I’m glad Spain gave Germany a rude awakening yesterday

Comment from bill
Time: June 30, 2008, 6:12 pm

@Carolina - thanks for that example of how polite Puerto Ricans can be

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: June 30, 2008, 6:15 pm

Well, thanfully, Carolina does not represent all Puerto Ricans so lets not generalize.

Comment from bill
Time: June 30, 2008, 6:34 pm

I never for a moment imagined that she did represent all Puerto Ricans

Comment from California
Time: July 1, 2008, 8:29 am

This is so interesting.

Coming from San Francisco, I find Spaniard’s comments to be terribly rude - I would never dare lecture someone (like Ben) about their own culture - but having lived in Madrid for 3 years, I have a feeling that Spaniard would say he’s not being rude at all. (he is being a little pedantic and arrogant, though - but that’s ok)

I agree - language is different than culture. As a foreign speaker of Spanish, I “feel” like I am treated much much better in Latin America than in Madrid - however, I feel like I’m treated much better in Asturias than I am in Madrid, too… so go figure.

People from NYC find people from California to be “soft”, or “laidback” - again, it’s cultural. Here in SF, we find rudeness on any level to be a bit distasteful.

Life is short - enjoy yourselves, and be nice to each other, for cryin’ out loud.

Peace!

Comment from David
Time: July 12, 2008, 8:26 pm

Hi, first sorry for my english.
Im spanish and think this disscussion have no sense.
Why?, couse what is rude or polite, in one culture cant be used to see if other culture is polite or not.
If you ask to a spanish person probably it will think, Uk peopel use a lot of please, thanks but probably only for custom not for be polite or for education.
Here like you say please is implied. How to know it, easy for the tone the person use when he is speaking.
Here if you order or ask for a thing you will say the same.
for example, you can say “Close the window”,
depend the tone the other person will understan, “can you close the window, please?”, or “Close the window, now!”.
So first, to speak about the polite or rude of one culture is needed to know it, not speaking looking it, whit the eyes of our own culture

Comment from Usted
Time: July 12, 2008, 8:39 pm

Please, can you traslate “Usted” to english?
Ohhh, so rude.

Comment from LivingInRonda
Time: July 13, 2008, 8:42 am

I’ve found quite a few waiters have seemed annoyed with me when I order and pay, I’ve been assuming this was because many of them deal with holiday makers everyday and just lump me in the same category, but thinking it through, because my Spanish isn’t very advanced yet I’m probably over-compensating with please and thank you, and probably sorry as well. Thanks for the heads up.

Comment from luke
Time: July 14, 2008, 8:19 am

@Usted
tú = thou; te = thee; te = thee, to thee.
Maybe the fact that the British stopped using the personal ‘you’ was due to the over-polite, cold nature of British society?

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: July 14, 2008, 12:00 pm

Cold nature by which frame of reference?

Comment from Edith
Time: July 14, 2008, 12:03 pm

This discussion is like a culebrón: it never seems to end!

Comment from luke
Time: July 14, 2008, 12:10 pm

@ValenciaSon
It’s that old stiff upper lip. It was, until very recently, normal in the UK for parents not to say ‘I love you’ to their kids etc…

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: July 14, 2008, 12:58 pm

So as of recent, the British society is no longer cold, by extension of logic of your statements.

Comment from luke
Time: July 14, 2008, 2:03 pm

Oh, we’re all nice and cuddly now, telling our kids that we love them, stabbing each other in the street, raging on the road…

Comment from Ray
Time: July 14, 2008, 3:02 pm

I am not saying that this is indicative of rudeness or politeness, but it is something I have become more aware of recently…
The so called ‘profanity’ or ‘bad words’ seem to be more prevalent and generally more acceptable in daily speech here in Spain than among South Americans and English speakers.
I don’t have any empirical data, but in my own anecdotal, personal experience, there is a definite difference in the level of acceptance of ‘profanity’ in speech.
Has anyone else noticed this?

Comment from Edith
Time: July 14, 2008, 5:25 pm

I’m not sure the Spanish use more ‘bad language’ than Anglo-Saxons, but they do seem to do it more openly - just like in Holland. Bleeping away certain words doesn’t mean they aren’t used, IMO it’s just a form of denial.

We should also bear in mind that some words may carry a slightly different meaning in other languages. In Spain, saying ‘coño’ is no big deal at all because its orginal meaning no longer seems to matter. Therefore, it doesn’t bother me one bit.

Comment from Ray
Time: July 15, 2008, 1:37 am

@Edith: You said,
“”In Spain, saying ‘coño’ is no big deal at all because its orginal meaning no longer seems to matter. Therefore, it doesn’t bother me one bit.”"

That’s what I’m talking about. So, you have noticed that, as well?

I’m not talking about censorship on TV, nor ‘bleeping’ Just the way real people talk, in general.

Comment from Eva
Time: July 24, 2008, 9:40 pm

We´re rude only when necessary, but apart from that it´s just the way we are. You can tell when we´re being polite because we don´t make a rude comment after. As long as there´s no swearing about your mother, father, sister, and grandparents, you can bet we´re not being rude. Besides the british are the polite ones Americans are not. I´ve lived in all three Spain being my home country, and the rudest are the americans by far.

Comment from Edith
Time: July 24, 2008, 10:52 pm

@ Ray,

Ye, I have, and I like their casual attitude towards those words. After all, they only become a problem because people decide they are a problem in the first place. According to some cultural historians, the Victorians were the most dirty-minded people in the world, and their culture was riddled with sordid little secrets of all kinds. Ask Sigmund Freud!

Comment from Richardksa
Time: July 25, 2008, 10:07 am

The Spanish use these words so much in normal speech, one is tempted to ask what they are left to say when the mieda really hits the ventilador. They have nothing left in reserve.

Comment from Edith
Time: July 25, 2008, 10:38 am

@ Richardksa,

Eva mentions swearing about your mother and other next-of-kin. Perhaps this is what Spaniards resort to when they become really angry.

In Mexico, mentioning someone’s mother in a negative way is the worst kind of insult imaginable. They have lots of cuss words which they use freely and openly - perhaps even more so than the Spanish - but never EVER launch a verbal attack on someone’s mother!

Just curious: what is considered to be the worst kind of cussing in Saudi culture?

Comment from Edith
Time: July 25, 2008, 10:42 am

@ Eva,

Why do you think Americans are rude? I have spent some time in the US as well and they didn’t strike me as rude.