Comment from luke
Time: September 11, 2007, 10:44 am

Help, this should probably be the in the ‘let’s not stereotype the Spanish’ category. From my experience, this is completely true and probably one of the things that attracted me to my wife but what a two-edged sword this can be! Que da miedo.

Comment from Ben
Time: September 11, 2007, 11:21 am

Ya te digo….

Comment from Edith
Time: September 11, 2007, 11:42 am

¡Viva las españolas! It does make me wonder, though, why Spanish women in the workplace still have to put up with being paid so much less - one-third is a LOT of money! Why don’t they organize themselves to do something about this?

Comment from Moscow
Time: September 11, 2007, 2:28 pm

Glass ceiling? Less pay? To my knowledge this happens everywhere. Let me know of a country where it doesn’t happen. I read a piece in the Guardian today saying Dutch women feel compelled to abandon any thoughts of a career because of feelings of guilt concerning the upbringing of children. They say scandinavian women have a better lot, but then they are mostly employed by the state - the men, of course, dutifully pay the hight taxes that make such a state of affairs possible. This is not to say that Spain has not a frightful historical record when it comes to these matters.

Comment from Edith
Time: September 11, 2007, 4:20 pm

True, many young Dutch mothers are still expected to stay at home for a least a couple of years - a considerable financial sacrifice which leads to broken careers.
But being paid less money for doing the same job is even worse, and I bet we wouldn’t tolerate it if black people received lower wages than their white co-workers just because of their race.

Comment from Jon Hundt
Time: September 11, 2007, 5:54 pm

we got on the wrong side of this once…

my wife and I went out to dinner one night in La Carihuela. It turned out to be a dinner from hell; after waiting a long time for the waitress, we ordered dinner and sangria and sat…. and waited…. and after an hour we got up and left with no dinner.

next day we were sitting in a cafe in Torremolinos, and along comes the waitress. She saw us and started shouting and foaming at the mouth. I told her that we weren’t interested, could she please move along. She said she would call the police. I said “there’s one… go get him”

So she’s raving on to the cop, he looks very disapproving at us. He wants our passports, and some money to pay the waitress. Then she makes a claim that we received a meal but skipped out without paying.

So my lovely Dutch wife stands up, wags her big beautiful finger back and forth and says “NO! YOU ARE LYING!!”

The cop backed down, told the waitress to go away, excused himself and left.

So I guess Dutch girls got some game, too! What’s the word - peleado?

Later our Spanish friends figured it was the gesture - standing up, and waving the remonstrative finger, while stating “You are lying!” Our friends felt that this probably brought out all kinds of inner childhood feelings in the Spanish cop, and that it reminded him of his mama.

I don’t know about all that, but it sure was good for a laff.

Comment from parubin
Time: September 11, 2007, 6:35 pm

I think the point is being missed here. There is a gap in Spain between men and women salaries (actually this happens to some extent elsewhere too) because women do not get to reach the same jobs & positions in companies, etc.. It is not that women are paid less than men in the same job post just because of their double-x chromosome.
The main reason (there are other reasons cultural-related too) for this is motherhood and raising children, which still relies more on the mother, and it is obviously a bit incompatible with career expectations.

@ Edith : About the example that you give, I am quite sure that black people in Holland recieve lower average wages than whites in a significant proportion. Not just becasuse mere and blunt racism but because they simply still don´t reach the same kind of jobs. Same happens with women too.

In Spain some positive-discrimitation laws have been passed not without controversy. For instance, private companies in the stock exchange markets have to have the same number of women and men in their board of directors. Not that I quite agree with this (if I am a shareholder of a private company I like to feel free to name whoever I like to manage the business, no matter what the gender) but…

@ Ben : Sometimes it amuses me how foreigners like to explain all Spanish cultural idiosincrasities going back as far as to the Franco Regime. I’m not saying that the guy didn´t shape the country to his likes, but, come on the man’s been dead for more than 30 years now… be more imaginative. What happens today in Spain (that being the happy sexual morale, the disregarding of rules, the Spanish National Football team always underachieving at tournaments, us being rude or not nice enough…) it’s not always becasuse of Franco. When you make those happy statements, you make that 30 year old corpse look very young and healthy. Sometimes I think that you have that man in mind a lot more that the average Spaniard round the block.

Comment from Charles C Stirk Jr
Time: September 11, 2007, 7:20 pm

I don’t know what the source is …..

But I do that whatever the source it made its way to the New World ..

You could very easily be talking about Peruvianas …. or better put it is just a Latina thing here in the Americas …

Comment from Ben
Time: September 11, 2007, 7:22 pm

Parubin, I said “It has been suggested that it’s a back-lash against years of macho oppression by the chauvinist Franco regime”, not that I had decided that! I must make it more clear in future that I am reporting ideas I have heard around in Spain. but you are right, it is probably rubbish, it was a long time ago now… then again, something that happened 30 years ago can easily have an effect on present day attitudes anywhere in the world… 30 years is not long in sociological terms is it?

Comment from diana
Time: September 11, 2007, 8:01 pm

I am a Spanish woman by genetics but born and raised in the US so no influence from the Franco regime nor Spanish machismo (only the American version which is more subtle). Let me tell you…. my husband can vouch for my caracter!!! Nature vs nurture?? Definitely nature!
Though I was always told that it’s the women from the north of the country, Asturianas, Gallegas & Vascas,etc. that had the strongest personalities. Is that true??

Comment from Roberto iza
Time: September 11, 2007, 9:01 pm

How true!

Comment from parubin
Time: September 11, 2007, 10:10 pm

@ Ben : You’re right, 30 years is not so long ago, and that back-lash theory against Franco’s machism can be true at some point. I wasn´t pointing out this statement in particular.

I was just saying that I’ve noticed that so many things in todays Spanish sociocultural context, are very often and very easily explained as either a reaction or a continuation of the Franco era.

I mean, the way a society behaves is very complex, sometimes we may attempt to give an explanation of some sort, sometimes we just don´t know the reasons, or even some other times the generalizations or stereotypes we tried to comprehend were just not correct in the first place.

But when it comes to Spain… hey, it’s all so easy, just put everything on Franco and you can´t be wrong!!

I think this is a very simplistic view on one of the oldest countries of the world, with a deep and rich past (Spanish history did not begin in 1936…) and a very energetic, dinamic and diverse present. Franco was indeed one of the most notorious personalities in Spain in the 20th century, but not even him and dozen more like him, God forbid, can be enough to determine each and every aspect of the country’s personality.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: September 12, 2007, 12:21 am

Franco’s dead?

Comment from Stuart
Time: September 12, 2007, 12:55 am

Franco lives in a retirement condo in Alicante next door to Elvis. Anyone who says otherwise is part of the conspiracy.

Comment from Moscow
Time: September 12, 2007, 6:32 am

Franco? I wish he were dead! I agree with Parubin, though, that non-Spaniards tend to make it easy for themselves, by attributing things in Spain to it’s Francoist past. It’s a form of intellectual laziness. But then, non-British people tend to link many apects of life in present day UK to it’s imperial past, Germany hardly ever gets a mention without the word Nazi popping up at one stage or another, and Russians will still be atoning for Stalin’s crimes for a long time to go. Nevertheless, to correct myself once more, I do agree wit Ben that 30 years is not a very long period of time, and I would go as far to say that in Spain today there are still some leftover things from the Franco era.

Comment from Frank
Time: September 12, 2007, 8:53 am

Moscow is correct in his comments about other countries still suffering from the past, and going back a lot further in some cases. We are constantly reminded, especially this year, of our occupation of India. We were such hated masters, but they still all want to come here. Slaves? You’d think we were the only ones that ever did it! Barbary pirates were attacking our shore and taking slaves in the 17th century, but you hear nothing about that. We are always being asked to apologise for our past actions regarding slavery. I think you’ll have to wait a lot longer before the talk of Franco stops.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml

Comment from Edith
Time: September 12, 2007, 9:23 am

@ Parubin and Moscow,

Hopefully you don’t think of me as one of those pedantic Dutchies who like to wag their finger at other nationalities while turning a blind eye to their own country’s faults… I often criticize my own country. To name but a few examples: Dutch people can be very boorish and rude, many don’t know how to queue, we are dumbing down rapidly and our educational system isn’t what it used to be, many Dutch people don’t know a thing about our role in the trans-atlantic slave trade or about the atrocities committed in the Dutch East Indies, the Dutch origins of the word ‘apartheid’, etc. As self as healthy historical self-criticism is concerned, we could learn a thing or two from the British and also from the Americans.

RE women: I feel strongly about equality in general, and I wasn’t intending to single out Spain in any way. But this forum is about Spain and not about Holland, the UK or the USA, so here we discuss Spanish society.

Don’t get me wrong, I greatly admire Spain because of the positive changes which have taken place here since the mid-1970s. As a matter of fact Spain has done extremely well compared to Portugal and Greece, and especially compared to some of the new EU member states which still have a loooong way to go.

Kudos to Spain for producing a film like ‘Mar Adentro’, and for legalizing same-sex marriages. Kudos to Spain, too, for breaking with its franquista past without any bloodshed and for turning into a modern European country so fast.

Some countries in Eastern Europe are still struggling with their totalitarian past and not everyone appears to embrace our modern democratic values.

Comment from Edith
Time: September 12, 2007, 10:09 am

@ Frank,

True, Europeans were not the only slave traders in history, nor did they operate on their own - many of their partners in crime were Arabs and Africans. I think the history of the Barbary slave trade deserves to be told. And yes, chattel slavery still exists in some parts of sub-Saharan Africa, for instance Mauritania.

But the fact remains that the trans-Atlantic slave trade was unprecedented in recent human history because it involved millions, rather than thousands, of people. This forced mass relocation had a huge social impact, not only on the slaves themselves but also on their modern descendants.

Comment from Steve
Time: September 12, 2007, 3:01 pm

This is great, my wife is also Spanish and a complete “todo terreno” in the nicest possible way!She’s one that cannot be taken for a ride. The times she’s embarrassed me by “doing her thing” I would probably struggle to put down in words and when i look back on them it’s only what I would have done myself if I had the “huevos”. Also looking back on the stuff she can get sorted out or has sorted out as per Ben’s examples have no price - I don’t know what I’d do without her!

Comment from Rudy
Time: September 12, 2007, 6:44 pm

You know, call me a PC wimp, but I think it’s wrong to make generalizations about any type of people, whether they have positive or negative connotations. To say that Spanish women all share some common trait just sounds weird to me. Here in the U.S., those who say that, for example, all white people are bad dancers, or that all black people like watermelon, etc., are look upon as those who are uneducated and unenlightened. I’m sure that there are plenty of quiet, timid, gullible Spanish women who don’t come close to matching the stereotype. And to say that “they are the exceptions that prove the rule” doesn’t accomplish anything. If I find a black person in the USA who doesn’t like watermelon (there are lots), then for me to say the same thing would be called flat-out racist. Not trying to rain on everyone’s parade, but conversations like these don’t accomplish anything, in my opinion. Thanks!

Comment from miriam (luke’s wife)
Time: September 12, 2007, 9:08 pm

This is a cultural trait not a personal trait (what food you like or whether you can dance or not). Compared to most of the English women and men I’ve known, us Spanish women do seem to have a more forceful character when it comes to defending your rights (Margaret Thatcher, Boudicca, Elizabeth I, are some of the many exceptions). Why are we like this? My generation (I’m 36) were brought up as equal to men but our mothers had to obey their husbands (if you got a job or travelled without your husband’s permission you could be prosecuted). Knowing this recent past, we want to be independent and have a future that doesn’t depend on a husband. Probably because of some men being opposed to this independence, there has been many disputes which have ended in wives being beaten up or killed by their partners. But my question is why (in my experience) are English men so hopeless when it comes to speaking out and defending their rights!!

Comment from Ben
Time: September 12, 2007, 9:45 pm

Well, in my case it’s because my Spanish wife does it so much better! Seriously though, I have learnt a lot about how to deal with people from Marina. At Gatwick airport a few months ago some people tried to push infront of me in a coffee shop. The old Ben would have thought ‘never mind’ and kept quiet. The new Ben told them ‘No way, I was here first!’ and refused to let them get in front. Marina said afterwards that she couldn’t believe it was me. There is no doubt in my mind that having seen her in action so often in these situations has got rid of a lot of my hopeless soft Englishness! Thanks for your comment Miriam, it is great to hear your opinion. I think Marina needs to say something next!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: September 12, 2007, 11:57 pm

MARINA! MARINA! MARINA!

Comment from Frank
Time: September 13, 2007, 8:38 am

“But my question is why (in my experience) are English men so hopeless when it comes to speaking out and defending their rights!!”

I think in the past there are endless examples of the English defending their rights! Had we not, we’d all be speaking German! Or even Spanish, if the if “Armada Vencible” was anything but a complete shambles! Talk is cheap, but if necessary, we can be stirred into action.

Comment from Edith
Time: September 13, 2007, 9:03 am

@ Rudy

Generalizations are always somewhat risky and even more so in the case of racial stereotypes, which are often downright pejorative. (the watermelon-and-chicken stereotype has always sounded ridiculous to me, anyway, because these food items are very popular around the globe).
So yes, we should be cautious.

But cultural differences between groups do exist, which is why intercultural management skills are such a hot item these days.

I do believe Spanish women tend to be assertive rather than submissive or complacent, and this is something I like about them. In Dutch we have a saying which roughly translates as ‘they don’t allow others to snatch the cheese from their sandwich’. This certainly seems to apply to many Spanish women.

Comment from luke
Time: September 13, 2007, 10:24 am

Frank, I hope Miriam was being a bit tongue in cheek, if not then sorry for letting the side down. But maybe the reason the English have such a good military ability is because the men don’t speak out against officers and stand up for their ‘rights’; they bravely obey orders. As a former soldier and an Englishman, I don’t express myself well when it comes to arguing about bills to companies etc.

Comment from Marina
Time: September 14, 2007, 5:08 pm

Of course there are plenty of Spanish women who are not fiesty, but funnily enough, if I look at the lot of our foreign friends that have a Spanish girlfriend/wife, in no exception they are all strong and full of Spanish character:-)

I think to look at the reason for this, Franco or no Franco, we have to look back at least 30 years, and even a bit longer. For a person around my age (32) the difference in freedom and opportunities that our mothers had in their youth compared to ours is massive (I reckon that even my grandmother enjoyed more freedom than my mother when she was young). Being able to see how women have worked for their men and children, giving all of their time in usually not very rewarding tasks, makes one appreciate much more the freedom and opportunities that the women enjoy now a days, and I guess that makes us very protective and defensive about it. I guess what happens in general is that we apply the same protection to other matters of life as well, for example if someone jumps the queue. But here we should also take into account that the Spanish society is a complaining society: The Spanish, in general, love complaining and do so, both men and women, in a much direct way than people from other countries.

Going back to equality… from what I’ve seen in England, for English women my age equality is not a big issue, mainly because they take it for granted. And even if in Spain, at least when I was a teenager, we looked at the North European women with admiration regarding equality, I’ve seen a few chauvinists behaviours in young English couples that I wouldn’t accept nor most of my friends would. One good example is taking your husband name when you marry. I know is a cultural thing, but in Spain most of the women would laugh about that possibility. Even today parents can choose the order of their children’ surnames - people in Spain take two surnames, usually the father’s one comes first and then the mother’s one, but now a days you can choose to put the mother’s one first.

One last thing @Parubin, the difference in salaries applies as well to women in the age of having children, even if they don’t have any. Ask for a salary rise when you are between 30-35 (women in Spain have their children later than in other countries) and I bet that in most of the private companies there is a difference as well.

Pingback from Marina on Spanish Women and Equality - Notes from Spain: Travel, Living in Spain, Podcasts, Forum and Photos
Time: September 16, 2007, 11:49 am

[…] strong and full of Spanish character:-) Marina just left a long comment on our recent article about Spanish women and their inherent ‘feistiness’, known here as carácter. I think it is a valuable […]

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Time: September 19, 2007, 6:12 pm

[…] round the block, and come back instead (which would take about 3 minutes!) At this point the famous Spanish caracter came into play, and Marina gave him a piece of her mind. He promptly reversed the 2 metres, […]

Comment from rob
Time: May 13, 2008, 9:20 am

Nothing is sexier than a strong but just woman. I grew up completely ignorant of the social injustices of the world; as I learned about them, I fell into despair for and anger at the world that such happened. I channel that energy into my political views. I swear to God, I can’t understand why anyone, man or woman alike, should be treated badly for anything other than the results of their works. I thought Jesus taught us better. Maybe a woman in Spain is waiting for a guy like me. Time to move there?

Comment from hellothere
Time: May 13, 2008, 11:29 am

Coming from a woman, who is neither Spanish nor British or American…

My impression is that Spanish women may indeed voice their complaints more than in other countries. But I would add that the same goes for Spanish men: my personal impression is that they are also more vocal.

Does this mean that they take no c…p, ever?

On one hand, my belief is that on a day-to-day basis, maybe they do not. For example, it seems true that they do not take kindly to anyone who tries to push in front of them. I think it is great that they make people respect their rights.

On the other hand, looking at the low wages, high unemployment rate, job precarity (1/3 temp jobs, a higher rate than in any other European country), the social differences between poor and rich people (being heavier than in many other European countries), the fact that no matter what they say it is still very much a patriarcal society, the low level of social policy (by European standards at least), I am going to have to say that Spaniards in general seem to put up with far more “bad” things than their neighbours.

Not to mention the glass ceiling and wage differences between men and women, of which I have heard countless Spanish women even deny the existence.

In all fairness, I come from a country where people are a bit feisty - to say the least - when it comes to getting any social welfare they can, and keeping it.
So of course in comparison, the contented attitude with which Spaniards take their economical and social situation has never ceased to amaze me.

To sum this up, I will say that they may complain, yes. They may sound assertive. But my feeling - and I may be wrong - is that this stops at day-to-day level and does not touch the more global social, economical and gender issues.

Or maybe it is something else.

Maybe it is that the things that I have mentioned above matter to me personally, but they do not matter to a Spanish woman: for example I do not see any problem in taking my husband’s name, but I do mind not getting a good promotion and I would certainly mind having to work for a low wage.

Maybe for Spanish women, it is the other way around.
In this case, yes, I would be inclined to say that take no c..p indeed.