Comment from Frank
Time: February 4, 2008, 9:38 pm

Like you, I think the F1 bosses are making the right noises, saying what is expected of them, but I for one don’t believe they will do anything at all about it. I just watched the BBC news, it was the second item. I then saw only the first 5 minutes of the Spanish news, including the headlines, and no mention of the incidents. It does not seem to have any importance there.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 4, 2008, 9:50 pm

ummm, I’ve seen some banners saying “Hamilton, stop talking, bigmouth” and THREE idiots wearing the “Hamilton’s Family” T-shirts (it’s Carnival time right now, in case you didn’t now).

I have to be missing something here, because I see no racist behavior, just some very rude, stupid and classless Alonso fans.

This has nothing to do with what happened at the Bernabeu with the black English players, which was really intolerable, but this….come on.

It seems to me that, once again, the British media, on behalf of the race-obsessed British society are trying to “clean” the British national bad-conscience….”hey, look at the Spaniards, they’re even worse than us”

So Ben, your profound analysis on the development of the Spanish society is based on this ehem…incident. Buuuuf.

But probably you’re right, we can conclude that, because there were three idiots in Mont Melo’s stands, the whole Spanish society is racist and ignorant. That’s a really open-minded and cultured view, Ben.

En fin…quoting Don Quixote: “Cosas veredes, amigo Sancho, que te dejarán pasmado y boquiabierto”

Comment from Colin
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:00 pm

Well said, Ben

Comment from Ben
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:02 pm

@Españolito, my not-all-that-profound analysis is based on the fact that this is just another one in a long series of incidents that nothing will be done about. You say you see no racist behaviour here…. Interesting, I thought calling someone a ‘puto negro’ is still considered pretty racist these days. As for the Carnival excuse, perdoname si me rio, tio.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:10 pm

Calling someone “puto negro”, is very racist, of course. I’ve just not seen or heard that statement, who said it? where is that banner? That’s not only racist, it’s also a crime under the Spanish law.

Regarding Carnival, no te rias tanto, porque vas a ver miles de personas pintadas de negro y disfrazadas de Hamilton y su papá en estos dí­as. Tambien vas a ver miles disfrazadas de Alonso y su novia.

I

Comment from Antony
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:12 pm

I have Spanish friends who really dislike Lewis Hamilton (not for the colour of his skin but his rivalry with Alonso). I think the Spanish media also give Lewis bad press. But behavour like this can only have a negative image for Spanish F1 fans. How can the stewards and officials at the track stand round and allow people to dress up and carry on like this. I believe the individuals concenred have to be punished.

Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:27 pm

@Ben: My hat’s off to you, sir. You’ve come a long way because I recall your vigorous defense of Spanish society not having a race problem last year in a couple of your postings. I’m glad to see that you’ve taken off the rose-tinted glasses and are opening your eyes to seeing things from a different point of view.

@españolito: Thank you for your comments. You provide a sterling example and an excellent barometer of the average “Juan on the street” mindset in Spain. Your comments are a perfect illustration of how far Spanish society still has to go to catching up and entering the 21st-century in terms of appreciating, valuing and respecting diversity. Saludos.

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:39 pm

Well done Ben for blogging this.

I can actually believe that espanolito excuses this disgusting behaviour. Many Spaniards are racist in a kind of Britain in the 1970s way, some are much worse.

It’s not that it was just 4 idiots being racist, it is the fact that it was ignored by those around and worse by the security and police presence. This would not - I stress for anyone making comparisons with the UK - would not have been allowed in the UK anywhere.

I actually felt quite ashamed today and I’m not Spanish, just someone known to have Spanish connections. The test will be how the Spanish authorities react. Will the government make it clear that this is unacceptable? Will the police find these racists and give them a few months in prison? Or will they treat it as a joke?

It strikes me how backward Spain is sometimes when I see this. I’m sorry to say this I really am.

I wonder what Americans make of it when they consider if they could vote for Obama? I don’t think he will be president (this time) but just the chance that a black man could lead the most powerful nation on earth sends a very powerful message. Spain should listen to that message and accept that skin colour is irrelevant.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:48 pm

HereWeGoAgain, I know it, that’s the role I wanted to play in this discussion.

Can you please enlighten me and explain what should I do in my personal life, and as a citizen, to embrace diversity?

Don’t worry too much about this incident, if someone has committed a crime, they will be punished. On the other hand, you will never see me behaving like that, nor I support that kind of behavior, it’s just “cutre”, classless.

I’m curious, why do you think I’m an example or a barometer? I had never thought of my self as an illustration of anything but me.

My point is, of course there’s racism in Spain: racism, discrimination, poverty, lack of opportunities, thousands risking their lives crossing the strait every day, etc,etc. There are millions of Spaniards who are racist and ignorant, and million who are open minded and try work for a better world for everybody.

Immigration is recent in Spain, we are not doing that bad….

This affair is ridiculous and over hyped by the British media. I wonder why they didn’t mention other cases of real racism that unfortunately have taken place in Spain recently.

Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:55 pm

Andrew,
I think you already know the answer to your rhetorical questions about Spanish leaders and authority figures. And that answer is “no.” Don’t expect anything.

And, yeah, I knew somebody was going to find a way to insert the U.S. into this dialogue so regarding your other question…I think Americans are more enlightened and socially progressive than the rest of the world gives them credit for. The fact that Barack Obama is a serious candidate who has come this far in the presidential campaign and has raised as much money as he has, already shows how much more progressive the U.S. is compared to what the rest of the world may think.

Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 4, 2008, 10:59 pm

@españolito: If you are serious about expanding your outlook, find a copy of “Invisible Man” by Ralph Ellison and read it cover to cover. That will be a good start.

Comment from frank
Time: February 4, 2008, 11:07 pm

“I’ve just not seen or heard that statement, who said it? where is that banner? That’s not only racist, it’s also a crime under the Spanish law.”

españolito, you seem to have a problem believing the British press, perhaps a quote from “Marca” today may suit you better. And as for your “three” idiots, make that 3,500! A crime under Spanish law? I’ll have a bet with you, nobody is punished!

Hamilton fue abucheado de manera casi fanática cada vez que transitó para entrar o salir a una tanda desde el box de McLaren. Los aficionados situados enfrente del cuartel general del equipo británico acompañaban los gritos y aullidos con insultos de tinte racista. Los gritos de "puto negro”, "negro de mierda” e "hijo de puta” se escucharon ní­tidamente. No fue un hecho aislado, sino la conducta general de unos 3.500 aficionados que se dieron cita en la tribuna principal del circuito ayer por la mañana.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 4, 2008, 11:16 pm

Thank you, HereWeGoAgain, I will read it.

However, I have to say I think I’ve already embraced “diversity” in my personal life, if you know what I mean.

My girlfriend is what we call in Spanish “una mulata”, and I live in a very,very multicultural barrio, here in Madrid. Let me tell you something, nobody here cares much about Hamilton, Alonso and the “racist” Spanish fans, we are too busy living our lives.

I have a lot to learn, but I’m trying. There a lot like me, I would say the majority. Time will tell, but I’m optimistic

Comment from Antón
Time: February 4, 2008, 11:38 pm

Hi. I’m another Spaniard who reads your blog and I absolutely agree with some of your comments. There were people calling Hamilton “puto negro” every time he came out of the McLaren box, to the point where he needed extra security. This took place, even if Españolito didn’t see it, and he would agree this is unacceptable.
However, I also watched the people dressed up as Hamilton’s family in the news, and I cannot see how it can be offensive to dressed up as black people. Their message was something like: “Even if we are Hamilton’s family, we have t-shirts supporting Alonso, because we like him better!”. They could have been smarter, and the disguises weren’t too good either, but in this particular case (not in all the other) I don’t see the scandal.
I just remembered a Southpark episode where the town becomes polarised over the issue of their flag, which depicts several white men hanging a black one. The adults are shocked that the children don’t want to change it, but in the end they realise that the children had not noticed that the colour of their skin was different. I have to ask again: what’s racist about disguising as a black person? And even if it was not Carnival, it would be quite normal for people to be disguised in such an event, just like some people go to football stadiums.
Anyway, you’re so right about many, many Spaniards being racist without realising, saying “sudaca” without being conscious of its offensiveness.
Thanks for the point of view of your blog.

Comment from Carl
Time: February 4, 2008, 11:38 pm

I think the bottom line is that the Spanish sometimes lack the internal barometer to tell when something is racist. They themselves don’t know that they possess perceptions about race that others may find offensive. This will take time to learn. One argument I know doesn’t fly with people of color, "I’m not racist because my girlfriend is black ..”

Comment from españolito
Time: February 4, 2008, 11:48 pm

Carl, having a black girlfriend doesn’t prevent you from being racist, that’s right.

I didn’t say there’s no racism in Spain, I didn’t say I’m not racist, I just said this Hamilton “affair” is ridiculous, in my opinion. I didn’t know about the “puto negro” shouted at Hamilton. If that’s true, thats just intolerable and that person(s) should be punished.

I agree with Antón, I don’t think the “Hamilton Family” T-shirts are offensive. So yes, we have different perceptions of race.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 5, 2008, 12:11 am

one final comment, I’ve just been reading some of the reader’s comments on the BBC site and, well, many of them are bit a xenophobic against Spain, to say the least. I’m not talking about the Sun or News of the World, I’m talking about the BBC site. Pot, kettle, black…

Comment from richardksa
Time: February 5, 2008, 12:28 am

Last Friday there was a mini Carnaval parade through the centre of Madrid. People were dressed like moors and some like African “savages”. Several of those were blacked up white people and others were real black people. They all seemed to be having fun.

Comment from PattyN
Time: February 5, 2008, 1:05 am

I had lunch today with an American friend who is planning a European tour this summer with his wife and daughter. He knows nothing about F1 or Spain, but based on the treatment Hamilton has gotten, my friend has all but written off Spain as a good place to visit. Given that my friend is brown (of Indian heritage), I’m not so sure he isn’t making a good call.

Comment from Tom
Time: February 5, 2008, 9:18 am

PattyN - your friend should probably stay away, unfortunately. My stepmum is of Indian origin and had no problems when she visited, but that’s because she was being looked after by locals. Spain’s got a big problem with racism and as you can see from Españolito’s comments, many people here try to pretend that it doesn’t exist or isn’t a problem. Seriously, would your friend like to visit a place where putting boot polish on your face to make yourself look like Hamilton’s family is seen as good clean fun?

Españolito, you’re a disgrace.

Comment from Estuart
Time: February 5, 2008, 9:33 am

First black Formula 1 driver,first black candidate for President,first black guard to the Queen etc.So bloody what!The colour is irrelevant.If other countries are so tolerant racially(doubtful)then why is a persons ‘colour’ the big story.Lazy writing.It implies a thought of ‘ oooohh!not all black people are stupid’.They should be commended for being clever,skilfull,intelligent, committed humans and less for their colour for which they have no choice.I am more disappointed in the blunt instrument used to insult Hamilton,so unimaginative,so obvious,so lazy but because ‘black’ was used we have outrage.There is no problem with vicious insults, if black is not used ,apparently.Complain about the insults not just the colour.Saludos a todos.

Comment from frank
Time: February 5, 2008, 9:51 am

“I agree with Antón, I don’t think the "Hamilton Family” T-shirts are offensive. So yes, we have different perceptions of race.”

This, as I said in another forum, is the basic problem, the Spanish think this behaviour is perfectly acceptable, they see nothing wrong with it. And until they do, nothing will change!
Racism is rife in Spain, it’s very rare to see a coloured face in any any position of authority. They seem happy enough to import some coloured footballers to boost their local teams, but equally are quite happy to abuse them. I wouldn’t suggest that all is perfect here in UK, but at least a coloured person has every chance of reaching the top, and many, many do, including many MP’s, leaders of industry, TV personalities etc, etc. Something rarely seen in Spain.

Comment from Stanley
Time: February 5, 2008, 9:52 am

Tom,

Why is it racist to appear in “fancy dress” to look like a sportsman? It happens a lot in other sports. Cricket for example. Yet I’ve not heard anyone cry foul over that. Are you saying it’s only racist to do so if the sportsman is black? Personally, I have a problem with the “family” bit. Erase that and I see no problem at all. As for the “puto negro” crowd, they can all drop dead and the world would be a better place.

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 5, 2008, 10:06 am

Thierry Henry = Black shitt according to Spain’s national football coach.

Black England footballers subjected to continuous monkey chants while playing in Madrid.

Spaniards - your failure to accept that this kind of behaviour including what happened to Hamilton and including the ridicule of his family is the problem. The reason we talk about the first black president for example is because we have come so far and we are proud of it. To excuse this as carnival antics is pathetic.

Racism, however harmless some of it might seem, is a real issue in Spain.

Comment from Dan Rojas
Time: February 5, 2008, 10:32 am

I am from Colombia south America and I have

Comment from frank
Time: February 5, 2008, 10:42 am

“Thierry Henry = Black shitt according to Spain’s national football coach.

Black England footballers subjected to continuous monkey chants while playing in Madrid.”

Don’t forget Eto’o threatening to walk off the field after suffering racial abuse. Oh! and the pig’s head for Luis Figo in Barcelona. Just a few of the nice sporting gestures in Spain.

Comment from Dan Rojas
Time: February 5, 2008, 10:44 am

never felt discriminated in the U.S. This country has given an education, a family, a business and many more blessings. How sad it is to read about Spaniards putting people down based on the color of skin. Should I be afraid of visiting Spain for fear of being mistreated as a turist only because I am not white?

Comment from Parubin
Time: February 5, 2008, 10:49 am

I agree with most comments but I’d like to add some further thoughts on this issue :

1) Inmigration is a new phenomenon in Spain. Now 10% of the total population of Spain are foreigners (Africans, Asians, South Americans, Easter Europeans…) and this has taken place in only 15 years.

We can compare the situation here with that of the US with the first ever black candidate in what, 200 years of history??

The same with the UK, I really don’t see black people occupying leading positions in the UK and there are virtually millions of british born to foreign parents in that country. In Spain today’s inmigrants are FIRST GENERATION. All of them came espaping from war, poverty and misery from their own countries. It’ll be their children and granchildren the ones likely to progress on Spanih hyerarchy social system. Like what has happened in the US or the UK but only faster. It won’t take us 200 years.

2) Spain receives more than 50 million international visitors each year, from almost all countries and races.
How many racially-based incidents have taken place in the last years?
I like to think we are an open society and by reading some posts here it seems that a tourist with dark skin will come into serious trouble visiting Spain and that is so not true.

3) Four years ago, islamic terrorists from Morroco, Tunisia and Egypt bombed commuter trains in Madrid and 200 were killed (not only Spaniards buy passegers from all nationalities, even some of muslim origin).

Not a single incident of bigot outrage was commited. Noone was killed by the police in the subway because his dark skin made him suspicious. Muslim inmigrants in Spain went on with their lives, their businesses and their religion.

4) No political party, lobby or group whatsoever admits by any means any kind of racial discrimination in Spain.

Having said all this I still think that there is a racial issue in Spain as there is in other countries (maybe in the UK it is more subtle as it has been said here before, which doesn’t make it better or less offensive) and we have to be aware of it every day and not let it happen.

Comment from Tom Clarke
Time: February 5, 2008, 10:51 am

Stanley - “Why is it racist to appear in "fancy dress” to look like a sportsman?” are you serious? They looked nothing like Lewis Hamilton, or his family. They had black boot polish on their faces, and that passes as imitation to you? What is this, 1975?

Comment from Catalonia Spain
Time: February 5, 2008, 11:11 am

God post Ben - you sure sparked a few juicy comments. For me it seems that racism in Spain is like the pacto del olvido - I’m referring to the Franco era whereby the majority of Spaniards prefer to sweep this moment in history under the carpet or moqueta either through embarassment or not wanting to face any repercussions.

A lot of Spaniards are quite racist not just against black people but with South Americans, too - although I did hear a comment from someone that said “the South Americans who look European are alright, it’s the ones who have darker skin or who look Indian (Bolivian, Peruvians etc) are the ones we don’t like”.

So I cannot agree that because it is “carnival time” Spaniards have to go to Montmeló dressed as “Hamilton’s family” to poke fun out of a driver who happens to be black. Passing this off as a bit of fun is sweeping yet another bit of Spain under the carpet. It also proves that Spanish people in general are only willing to listen to one side of the story regarding last year’s F1 fiasco. Alonso is seen as their golden boy who can do no wrong.

Spaniards seem to forget that he threatened his then boss Ron Dennis with divulging the contents of some emails if he wasn’t given the number 1 recognition and also stayed still in the pits long enough for Hamilton not to have another shot at getting “pole position”.

I rest my case - ¿Dolores, dónde está la moqueta?

Comment from Beckett
Time: February 5, 2008, 11:13 am

You guys should see some of the self-serving, defensive remarks being made by Spaniards defending the loutish behavior of their countrymen on the NYTimes blog on this topic.

@Estuart: People know the negative connotations that come with the term “black,” so if that word didn’t have any negative connotations, people wouldn’t use it as an insult. They use it add more venom, more desprecio to their insult.

To all the other posters wondering what’s wrong with dressing up in blackface, you’d have to be a student of history to understand. Just trust people when they tell you it’s not a good idea. By the way, if you don’t think there’s any problem with putting black shoe polish on your face and walking around, go do that on the streets of Washington or New York and report back to us what happens.

And if one more Spaniard says “well everyone is racist”or “there’s more racism in the U.S.”, I’m going to reach through this frigging computer screen and slap somebody.

Here’s the difference between Spain and the U.S. In the U.S., those same racist “fans” would’ve been publicly jeered and escorted out of the arena by security. There is no way that anyone in the U.S. would idly stand by and SAY OR DO NOTHING in that same exact situation. THAT’s the difference! And that’s where the public shame and disappointment should be aimed at in Spanish society. Any rational, reasonable, humanistic Spaniard who truly believes that all humans are created equal, regardless of race, ethnicity, age, gender, etc., should be OUTRAGED at what is happening at Spanish sporting events and should take a stand. Until that happens, don’t preach to me about how “everyone’s a little racist” or “the U.S. is more racist than us.”

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 5, 2008, 11:23 am

“By the way, if you don’t think there’s any problem with putting black shoe polish on your face and walking around, go do that on the streets of Washington or New York and report back to us what happens.”

Exactly! It is the tolerance of this behaviour which is so sickening.

Calling Alonso…let’s hear from you, your silence is deafening.

Comment from frank
Time: February 5, 2008, 11:34 am

“You guys should see some of the self-serving, defensive remarks being made by Spaniards defending the loutish behavior of their countrymen on the NYTimes blog on this topic.”

Just been reading much the same here in UK in the Times Online. Unfortunately, as one article says, Spain seems to be in denial about any problem. And it starts at the top,

“Despite the perception abroad that Spain suffers from a serious problem of racism, the Spanish Government insists that there is little cause for concern. "Spanish society does not show a racist tendency,” Estrella Rodrí­guez, the government official charged with dealing with the issue, said after the attack on the Ecuadorean. "What happened in Barcelona is an isolated incident that cannot be tolerated, but the signs are that society is adapting to immigration in a mature way.”

Their idea of a Race Relations Tribunal was Torquemada.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 5, 2008, 12:07 pm

Frank, “Their idea of a Race Relations Tribunal was Torquemada”, is a very stupid statement, to say the least. It is also, racist, xenophobic, offensive and a big lie.

You simply don’t know what your talking about.

To the preson who said there are no black persons in power positions in Spain….well, what can I say?, of course there aren’t any, most of them have been here for less than 5 years. Let’s see if their children have the same opportunities as everybody else, that will be the real test.

If dressing up in a blackface is wrong, then I guess we should also forbid the Moros y Cristianos festivities, and even the Semana Santa.

Let us walk our walk, don’t be so patronizing and stop comparing Spain with the UK or USA. Immigration in Spain begun 5 years ago, and now around 12% of the population are immigrants. That’s a lot of changes in a very short period of time..

Sof ar, I have to say I agree with Estrella Rodriguez for the most part: I truly believe that Spanish society is doing relatively well.

Comment from Graeme
Time: February 5, 2008, 12:13 pm

The problem here is that the authorities and institutions never lift a finger until someone else complains about what is happening. Then they come out with with all the right declarations about how intolerable it all is; and once the noise in the press has died down everything goes back to the way it was before. That is why some Spanish football grounds still have a severe racism problem, because nobody will accept responsibility for the problem unless they are forced to do so. There are racist idiots in many countries, what needs to change here more than anything is that others stop trying to make excuses for them.

Comment from frank
Time: February 5, 2008, 12:43 pm

“of course there aren’t any, most of them have been here for less than 5 years.”

It has certainly accelerated in the last 5 years, but according a Spanish Embassy document,

“For the last two decades, Spain has become a country of immigration. This has been the case since the mid eighties in terms of annual flows, and since the beginning of the nineteen nineties in terms of the number of immigrants residing in Spain compared to the number of Spaniards residing abroad. ”

Now that’s more than 20 years for quite a few, so how long do we have to wait before we see any of them doing anything but menial jobs? The gypsies have been in Spain for centuries, do they fare any better? During the Franco years, and times when starvation was rife in Spain, the Spanish had no problem in emigrating to all corners of the world, especially South America, but now the trends are reversed, immigrants are hardly welcomed with open arms. Spain has had an incredible growth in the last few years, and whether you are prepared to admit it or not, that would have been impossible without the immigrant work force.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 5, 2008, 1:08 pm

20 years ago there was almost NO blacks in Spain,everybody knows that, stop talking nonsense, please.

the bulk of the immigration to Spain(maybe around 80%) has arrived in the recent past, during the last five, maybe seven years. It is pretty obvious, ask Ben what was Madrid like when he came to Spain and what is like now. The difference is huge.

Of course a great part of the recent Spanish economic success is due to the immigrants, everybody recognises that, including the goverment, who has said it many times, what’s your point Frank?

Comment from frank
Time: February 5, 2008, 1:31 pm

“20 years ago there was almost NO blacks in Spain,everybody knows that,

Why would that be then? Could it be because you threw them all out centuries ago, along with the Jews? Both the Jews and the Moors made fantastic contributions to Spain, in art, inventions, agriculture, the sciences, astronomy, business etc, and their reward was to be thrown out of the country.
By the way, you never addressed the question about the gypsies, or when we can expect to see immigrants coming to the top. I’ll stop talking rubbish now, leave the debate, and leave you to defend the “undefendable”, that Spain is not a racist country.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 5, 2008, 2:04 pm

20 years ago Spain wasn’t an attractive country for immigrants, that’s why there were almost no foreigners. That’s all, Spain was still a (relatively)poor country back then.

Comment from Graeme
Time: February 5, 2008, 2:05 pm

It is true that the big growth in immigration in Spain is a recent phenomenon - the country has gone in a relatively short period from being a country of emigrants to one of immigrants. I also believe that the situation on racism will improve, I can remember from my own childhood in the UK how bad things used to be compared to now. None of which excuses outbursts of racism, there is also more awareness these days of the issue than there used to be.

Where I cannot agree at all with Españolito is on the issue of these people in “fancy dress”. To suggest that people dressed up as sterotype black people in the midst of a group of morons shouting racist abuse is the same as those who dress as Moros or Cristianos in local festivities is to miss the point by a very long mile.

Comment from Mike
Time: February 5, 2008, 2:11 pm

I am all against racism in any form - I thin its the most despicable think that exists in todays aparent harmonious, mult-cultural socienty… This is more a dig at how things are reported.

Ive just seen the BBC reports on TV and it looks like a story which has been blown up a little. Still pictures of “fans” wearing “those” t-shirts and then moving pictures of a happy-looking Hamilton… Not very convincing as a report on racism.

I know of a black footballer in Poland whose fans also used to do themselves up in boot polish. In a way it showed acceptance and respect (not easy to do in a country like Poland). In a way they were dressing as their hero and as he was black… what were they supposed to do??? I know the Spanish fans probably didnt have respect in mind but the stills from BBC are not much to go off…

I agree with the above that Alonso needs to say something but doubt he will…

Comment from Brendan
Time: February 5, 2008, 2:29 pm

Maybe certain individuals need to see this from different view point to understand.

Imagine your the “white” driver and all the fans are “black” and they’re hurling racial abuse at you, how do you feel? There faces are painted white just like yours, does that make you feel included, better about yourself, or does it just feel like maybe you don’t belong?

Any form of racism is unacceptable. Perhaps those guys with the shoe-polished faces weren’t intending there actions to be viewed as racist and were just displaying sheer ignorance?

Either way it’s wrong…

Comment from Rafe
Time: February 5, 2008, 4:16 pm

Hi Ben,
very good piece, you told it how it is. As for those like españolito and Anton, what planet are you on? Imagine for a moment that Hamilton was white with one parent from say, Sweden. Would those clowns have dressed up to mock his family rather than only him? Of course not because it wouldn’t have meant anything and anyway they wouldn’t have dared, certainly not at an F1 event. Their action was the essence of racist cowardice because Hamilton’s ethnicity has nothing to do with his conflict with Alonso, it was just used as a way to hurt him. Spain’s reaction to this idiocy should be neither to beat itself up nor deny the vicious nature of the act. Instead it should be tackled head on which means above all putting aside nationalistic defensiveness and dealing with issue of racism in a reflective and mature way. It is not a question of which country is more racist, Spain or the UK, the US or France, this is a childish argument. Racism exists everywhere, the point is not to try and excuse it away because of a “my country right or wrong” attitude.This does nothing for a society and is based in weakness and insecurity. People who behave in that way have to be made to realize by their fellow citizens that reacting to your own feelings of victimhood (Alonso was not treated well in the UK) doesn’t give you right to cross the line in that way and behave in such an arrogant and ugly way. It is as simple as that. Various issues arise from this negative incident. How were they allowed to remain in the stand by the track officials and what if anything are the Police doing about it now? Have they even been interviewed by the police? The other question is the role of Alonso himself. Has he condemned his so called fans, and If not why not?
If nationalism stops people from dealing with issues of morality then it becomes an illness which does far greater harm than the original offense. After all, they can be derided as idiots, what’s your excuse?

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 5, 2008, 4:29 pm

I hope ‘Olivia’ will forgive me for copying this outside the forum but it is so sad it needs to be exposed here.

“My sons school basically told us that the children were not used to black kids in the school and thats why they did not call him by his name for about 3 months but refered to him as negro”

“Barcelona was a sad experience because we were actually denied service in a restaurant because they told us that they did not serve prostitutes!”

http://www.notesfromspain.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4510&page=2

Comment from Edith
Time: February 5, 2008, 5:36 pm

Unfortunately, wearing blackface in public is still part of our Sinterklaas tradition on December 5 in Holland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

It would be easy to replace the black makeup by a more colorful alternative, and this has actually been tried a couple of years ago. Holland has a large Afro-Caribbean community and many of its members are not at all pleased by the annual performances of Sinterklaas and his ‘black’ helpers.

But sadly, many people keep defending Zwarte Piet as an integral part of Dutch tradition.

Comment from Edith
Time: February 5, 2008, 5:40 pm

A Canadian view on wearing blackface:

http://www.expatica.com/nl/life_in/blog/zwarte-piet–a-sinister-symbol-in-a-tolerant-country–1658.html

Comment from David
Time: February 5, 2008, 5:51 pm

I think the fact that these idiots who dressed up couldn’t even spell the word “family” correctly (they spelled it “familly” with two l’s) says it all.

Comment from Antón
Time: February 5, 2008, 7:33 pm

Hi all again, thanks for your responses.

@Rafe
“What planet are you on?” - Earth, thanks for your interest. I’m in Spain, and I might know a bit more about what Spaniards feel than some of the people writing here. And I’m not to justify them.
“Imagine for a moment that Hamilton was white with one parent from say, Sweden. Would those clowns have dressed up to mock his family rather than only him?”
Why his family? Because they were a group of 4-6 people, and it is traditional for groups to dress up as one single thing. I don’t know how someone would mock a driver from Sweden but, for example, Kimi Raikkonen was sometimes mocked for his inexpressiveness, which one could argue is stereotypical for the Finns. Would it be racism? Kimi is very respected in Spain, though.

@Andrew: I don’t think Españolito is racist, he’s just a proud Spaniard you allow yourselves to judge.
You say: “it was ignored by those around and worse by the security and police presence”. Almost true: insulting banners where removed and Hamilton’s area was separated with extra security. Those who insulted Hamilton where not thrown off the place, that I know. I suppose you agree that only racist/violent offenders should be thrown off. I think its OK for people to show that they don’t like a player/driver. Otherwise football stadiums would be empty, if you take the people who boo at the rival team. Do you remember the people yelling “gordo” at Ronaldo?
“It strikes me how backward Spain is sometimes when I see this.” Yeah, me too. Try taking a cab, whose driver have COPE turned on 90% of the times.
You’re right, Luis Aragonés from the national football team is a terrible, impolite, old man, and the Henry issue was sad.

@frank: thanks for the quote from Marca. What you say about the lack of racial diversity in positions of authority is due to, as it has been said, that most of these people arrived in the last 15 years (not in the 50s and 60s) and sadly haven’t had the possibility to come out of poverty. I hope time will bring opportunities for everyone. The lack of integration of gypsies, who have lived in Spain for centuries, and the racist behaviour towards them is a very serious issue, something to be ashamed of, but some of them are musical or business stars. About “minorities”… we have Andrés Montes on TV, some other presenters and musicians, some muslim politicians… and, speaking of other minorities, homosexuals are accepted by a huge majority (even if PP’s position ashames us) and are very relevant in politics (Pedro Zerolo and the current major of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria being the most prominent, I would say). And we are proud of having gay marriages and adoption. Ok, I prefer not to compare, it would be silly.
“Their idea of a Race Relations Tribunal was Torquemada.” That’s a very low comment. Yes, we have a long history to regret. The Spanish kings sacked the muslims in 1492 and the muslims in 1609. Terrible, terrible, like so many other things.
You also mention Figo. I suppose that you agree that that incident was shameful, but not racist.

@Tom Clarke: yours is a silly point, fancy dresses are made to be funny, they don’t have to be a good imitation. In this case, I think they chose the eldest members of “Hamilton’s family”, something like their grandparents, as we all know his father also supports Lewis ;).

@Beckett “To all the other posters wondering what’s wrong with dressing up in blackface, you’d have to be a student of history to understand”. So you assume that all the other people are ignorants, spare me that classic superiority. And yes, I am also outraged at the racist incidents that happened last weekend and so many other times.

@Graeme: I think you’re right, more has to be made in the football matches (and F1 races). But when you say “To suggest that people dressed up as sterotype black people in the midst of a group of morons shouting racist abuse is the same as those who dress as Moros or Cristianos in local festivities is to miss the point by a very long mile”, I heard that people speaking on TV and it was clear for anyone that their intention was not racist, but satirical; I don’t think they should be responsible for other people close to them acting in a racist way.

@David “I think the fact that these idiots who dressed up couldn’t even spell the word "family” correctly (they spelled it "familly” with two l’s) says it all.”
That’s argumentum ad hominem, a fallacy, I hope you can do better. By the way, your punctuation could be improved.

So, I want to sum up my points:
- I seriously condemn the incidents of the last weekend and all other racist behaviour.
- I don’t think the people dressed up as Hamilton’s family are the point, given they were not insulting Lewis in a racist way.
- Racism does exist in Spain, and it is a very serious issue. Immigrants are mistreated by the police, there are neonazi attacks, we have the savages yelling at Eto’o in the matches and many other incidents. Many people are racists, many people say “sudaca” (a very offensive word, I think), many are manipulated by the sensationalistic media like Antena 3 or El Mundo.
- I wonder if you are against insulting sports people. Maybe it’s not “fair play”, but criticism should be allowed. However, when you criticize Spaniards for their dislike of Lewis some of you do exactly the same thing with Fernando.
- And that’s the problem, that both countries have had this rivalry fed by the media. What happened during last summer was not Alonso’s fault at a 100%, and either was Hamilton’s. I think they both acted incorrectly (if you want to remember one of Lewis’, he protested against his own team when McLaren decided that that weekend Alonso would have one extra lap; as a result, McLaren eventually lost the drivers championship). The sensationalistic tabloids in the UK and the sensationalistic sport newspapers and Telecinco F1 broadcasts fed the beast for too long. For many Spaniards, Lewis became a monster, and that was a great distortion from reality. But the first thing that people called him was “childish”. A similar thing happened in the UK. Using Lewis’ family in the Spanish circuit was probably a reaction to Anthony Hamilton’s constant presence in the races. He probably became more of a hate figure than his son Lewis.
- Many reports on this incident are not serious journalism. The racist insults took place, but in order to illustrate them (on CNN) they show a banner that reads “Hablas demasiado, bocachancla” (”You speak too much, big mouth”). This is a totally race-neutral insult. Ok, if I try to think like some of the race-obsessed people here, they might argue that “big mouth” reflects the big lips a black man usually has. It is not, just look up “bocachancla” in Google to find out instances of this insult.
- I also think it would be good if Alonso said something. Maybe you haven’t received the news, but the Spanish Motor Federation already condemned the behaviour of those people.
- You probably know the Spanish tradition of the Three Wise Men or Three Kings on January 6th, these characteres listening to the children’s wishes like “Papá Noel” does and the parede that takes place on the 5th. Since the XIVth century one of them, now called Balthazar, is depicted as a black man (a Murillo painting). I wonder if that is racist for you. And if it is racist for the person playing Balthazar to paint his face black (wouldn’t it be racism to choose someone to play Balthazar because of his race?).
- Please, don’t assume all the time we Spaniards are all retarded, ignorant, racist, pseudofranquist people, that would be very nice.

Thanks everyone and sorry for the long answer and the likely mistakes. Cheers ^^

Comment from Dan Rojas
Time: February 5, 2008, 8:36 pm

Had the incident of the Ecutorian girld happen in the U.S., the perpetrator would be in jail today. Absolutely.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 5, 2008, 9:16 pm

Dan, this is getting silly…do the US usually send people to jail without a trail (I mean, appart form Guantanamo)?

I don’t think so.

The perpetrator (I love this word), will be judged and imprisoned if found guilty (which he will).

So Dan , puedes dormir tranquilo, hermano, and please remember three things about that incident:

1-The ones who sent the video to the media were Spanish
2-The coward rat that was sitting next to the girl watchig the whole thing was latino himself
3-the perpetrator is a mental-handicapped person with coming from a “familia desestructurada” as we say here

So please, stop all this demagogy. It’s very unfair.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 5, 2008, 9:24 pm

Creo que voy a empezar a escribir en español porque mi Ingles se está volviendo cada vez pero con cada post, lo siento…

Un saludo a todos y hasta otra

Comment from Mrmark
Time: February 5, 2008, 9:54 pm

The anti fascist movement has had great success in in sport in the UK, but it seems we still get bad behaviour…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6968562.stm

“All of those involved in the game will be aware of the need to tackle racism and discrimination in all forms. Islamophobia is a dangerous and nasty form of racism”

It would be nice to believe that if England played Turkey that there wouldn’t be any fans singing “I’d rather be a P*** than a Turk.” and other racist
stuff, but lets be honest - we still have these attitudes in all societies. Yes, let’s try and crack down on it, but don’t try and look down your nose at the Spanish - it happens in your country too.

Comment from frank
Time: February 5, 2008, 11:19 pm

“Thanks everyone and sorry for the long answer and the likely mistakes. Cheers ^^”

Hombre, sientáte, ¡debes estar cansadí­simo después de escibir un correo tan largo!;-)
I can never understand the preoccupation in Spanish forums about the presence of Anthony Hamilton at all of the races. Yes, of course, he is his father, but he is also his manager, so would expected to be there. I’m sure Alonso has his manager there,and probably a few advisors, but because they are not family, does it make a difference? His father held done several jobs at the same time to raise the money to pay for his son to progress through the ranks, he drove him to every event, so I guess as a consequence, they are very close. You Spanish are supposed to do the big close family thing, perhaps you are not used to us cold Brits having such close family ties.
I just fail to see why it is such a big problem to the Spanish.

Comment from frank
Time: February 5, 2008, 11:24 pm

“The anti fascist movement has had great success in in sport in the UK, but it seems we still get bad behaviour…”

I don’t think anyone has denied that, in fact quite the opposite. But we admit things are still not perfect, but the whole problem with the Spanish case, is that they either deny they have a problem (and keep telling us we have) or bury their heads in the sand, and hope that that will fix the problem.

Comment from Dan Rojas
Time: February 6, 2008, 2:28 am

españolito what more evidence would you need to see in order to convict the individual that assaulted the Ecuturian girl. The fact that he is running around free speaks loudly about a justice system. So please don’t talk about demagogy.

Comment from Parubin
Time: February 6, 2008, 11:32 am

I don’t justify and never will behaviours like those that happened in Barcelona with Lewis Hamilton.
I think the Spanish society is racist and we have to be aware of this to overcome the problem.
But, before other nations start patronizing us i’d like to point out the following :

1) Monkey chants in Spanish stadiums are isolated indicents, which I’d like to think are on the verge of dissapearing for good.
Only two or three times that has happened in this century, and , of course, it made the headlines all over the world.

2) Behaviour of English football fans is far from excellence. They still show signs of racism. The last incident I recall was not so long ago (it happened in 2004 when England was playing Turkey in Sunderland, England). It was clearly audible live on television the English fans were singing ‘I’d rather be a Paki than a Turk’. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Turkism]

Not very nice to say the least, and that was not the action of a couple of morons but a massive chant by the audience.

3) Spanish is the first country in the EU and the second country in the world (only after the US, and with us having a much smaller population) in adopting children from thirld world countries (Asia, Africa, Latin America).

[http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2005/0...14696591.html]

I think this says something about Spain being open society and not so full of bigots as it has been suggested.

4) Spanish Government has gotten into trouble with the EU inmigration authorities to be so openly ‘friendly’ with inmigration.

As you might know there has recently been an inmigration amnesty given by the Spanish goverment which granted legal status to all the previously illegal inmigrants.

[http://www.elpais.com/articulo/inter...puint_11/Tes/]

5) Radical Islamic Terrorists from Morroco, Egypt, Tunisia bombed commuter trains in Madrid, four years ago, and as a result, 200 innocent people died. The greatest terrorist action on European soil.

Not a single incident of racial nature occured after that. Noone took reprisals against the big islamic community in Spain. This shows some maturity as a society on our side, I’d say.

I could go on with examples like these. I just want to put everything under perspective.

We in Spain have some racist behaviours that need to be addressed. Notheless, this behaviours are not light years from those in other parts of Europe such as Britain, for instance, which of course doesn’t make us any better or doesn’t give us any opportunity for justifying the unacceptable.

So let’s not turn this into a discussion of Spain Vs. England or Spain Vs. the US, but a problem of racist bigots Vs humankind.

Comment from Brendan
Time: February 6, 2008, 1:32 pm

“3) Spanish is the first country in the EU and the second country in the world (only after the US, and with us having a much smaller population) in adopting children from thirld world countries (Asia, Africa, Latin America).”

I am in no doubt about above statement, however it is very difficult in Spain to adopt a child, it is a long and daunting process, with many factors weighing against potential parents.

In light of this, the simpler option is to adopt from third world countries where adoption criteria is somewhat less stringent.

In short I think your point regarding adoption is very weak and preys upon those who can’t have children themselves, then have to face an incredibly tough adoption system in Spain, when that fails and if they still have the will, they look beyond Spanish borders for the child they want to love. When you talk about a couple wanting a child so desperately, race has nothing to do with it.

Moving on…

I’m neither Spainish, English or American. I’ve lived in both Spain and England (can’t comment on America as I’ve never lived there and what I know I’ve only seen on TV) and have seen racism in both countries on the football field and on the streets. I’ve even been the target of racism on the streets of London by two black youths.

In my country racism is also a problem it’s a worldwide problem and as Parubin says turning this discussion into a us vs them, or your worse than us, or we were like that 20 years ago speach gets us no where.

Although I will say this. The full effects of immigration in Spain has yet to show itself, is it possible we could see race riots like in Paris or Bradford? I hope not…Only time will tell…

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 6, 2008, 1:57 pm

I am saddened - embarrassed even - to find how brazen Spanish commenters are about this incident.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 6, 2008, 3:00 pm

Dan, the person who attacked the girl form Ecuador is waiting for his trial. He will be judged and eventually convicted in due time. Meanwhile, he is running free because a judge considered so.

There are no instant summarial trials in this country any more, thank God.

To me. this indeed says a lot of the Spanish justice system: this is not the Wild West.

Comment from luke
Time: February 6, 2008, 3:20 pm

Every society has racists but in the UK there is a very strong taboo when it comes to ‘White’ people being racist against ‘Blacks’ or Asians. But on London buses you can often hear racist comments from people of Afro-Caribbean backgrounds. Examples that I’ve heard shouted out: “I hate white people especially English white people”/”You look like a Nigerian.” reply “F… off! You’ve got a Somali spam head” etc. A not uncommon scenario is to see an British ‘Black’ African traffic warden giving a ticket to British ‘Black’ Caribbean, in this situation I’ve heard the words ’slave’,'go back home’. Mixed race ‘Black’/'White’ people are given the insult ‘tint’ or ‘coconut’ by darker black people. Also many ethnic groups will not let their offspring marry or date another race (this is often seen as acceptable due to religious preferences but I believe ends up as racial prejudice). Some Pakistanis prefer to marry a lighter skinned Pakistanis and the Hindu caste system also has links with racial breeding. So, unfortunately, multi-cultural Britain does still suffer from explicit racism. I’m sure many ‘White’ British people are prejudiced against others but now most of them wouldn’t voice it in public or private.

When I first came to Spain I was shocked on going to meet parents of Spanish friends. There were times when they’d complain about ‘Blacks’ and no one seemed to find it strange. I’m sure this happened in the UK before the 1980s and like the UK I imagine Spain will change. But I hope that all types of racism will one day become taboo; I very much doubt it.

Comment from frank
Time: February 6, 2008, 5:54 pm

“I think this says something about Spain being open society and not so full of bigots as it has been suggested.”

To me it says that Spain has the lowest birthrate in Europe,so it’s natural, if they want children, they will adopt more. As has been pointed out it’s far easier for them to adopt from third world country than from Spain itself. And I don’t believe it is done purely for altruistic reasons, it’s a quick way for them to get an instant family without all the normal problems involved. Of course they can give a good life to a child, and that is great, but I can’t believe they are thinking solely of the child.

Comment from Rafe
Time: February 6, 2008, 5:57 pm

Anton,
what the hell are you talking about?
“Why his family? Because they were a group of 4-6 people, and it is traditional for groups to dress up as one single thing. I don’t know how someone would mock a driver from Sweden but, for example, Kimi Raikkonen was sometimes mocked for his inexpressiveness, which one could argue is stereotypical for the Finns. Would it be racism? Kimi is very respected in Spain, though.” “I don’t think the people dressed up as Hamilton’s family are the point, given they were not insulting Lewis in a racist way.”
“I might know a bit more about what Spaniards feel than some of the people writing here”.
You don’t seem a bad person Anton so why are you writing this meaningless drivel and trying to defend the indefensible? You are now even trying to suggest that the appalling behavior of those idiots is down to “tradition”! They knew exactly what they were doing, so why can’t you see it for what it is and condemn it? For them dressing up as black people was an insult in itself. Why does it have to be spelt out to you?? My point about Sweden was not, how would they insult a Swedish person? It was that they wouldn’t consider dressing up as Swedish people an insult because Swedish people are white (whiter than Spanish people) and therefore do not qualify as targets for their vicious attitudes. People do not have the right to dress up as another person’s family to insult them especially if that involves a racial slur, it is totally disrespectful, and that is the key word here. You come from a society where the family is very important, surely you can see that? This is pretty basic stuff Anton.
I lived in Spain for many years and I think there are many good things about the society: a basic humanity, attitudes towards the family and children, and the way of life. Denial however is not one of those good qualities, so come Anton, stopping trying to defend the indefensible and you will feel much better!
Peace and love.

Comment from toni
Time: February 6, 2008, 10:33 pm

i think that Spain is still stuck in the inquesition time as its its pathetic leadership. and ubiquitously platic royal family (never heard of eat of Salamanace) As an EU country allowance of this is totally unacceptable. what would they think if we all CELEBRATED GUERNICA OR THE MADRID TRAIN BOMBINGS.

Im coming to madrid neXt wearing the locks of spanish babies burnt at Guernica And the limbs of Spanish children killed in the Madrid bombings.

I loved Spain but now it is abhorrent to me.

Cancel the F1 in Valencia and all major sporting and trade tornemants and the ZARAGOZA expo. Then lets see if Spain can wake up from their 50 year Siesta.

adios amigos

Comment from Jonny
Time: February 6, 2008, 11:05 pm

I heard (on the Guardian Football Weekly podcast) that Marca covered the incident in question by saying that yes, racism is bad, but this wasn’t really racism because Hamilton isn’t really black because one of his parents is white.

Doesn’t that just tell you everything you need to know about the lens a society uses to look at race and prejudice?

Is there nobody with the sense to suppose that if Hamilton identifies himself as black, and therefore, finds the actions of those idiot fans offensive, then we should consider their behaviour be racist and offensive rather than debate whether or not he has the right to feel that way?

Comment from españolito
Time: February 6, 2008, 11:13 pm

marca is at the same level as The Sun,Daily Mail, or Bild in Germany.

Please, let’s try to be serious here Jonny, why don’t you take the rest of the Spanish media as an exampe of the lens our society uses to look at race?. I will tell you why:
1-You don’t speak Spanish and/or you don’t wnat to waste your time reading Spanish newspapers
2-The Guardian and the rest of the pathetic nationalist british media have zero interest in serious journalism
3-In fact, you’re not interested in knowing about us, you already have your prejudiced opinion

This is pathetic.

Comment from Jonny
Time: February 6, 2008, 11:23 pm

espanolito,
I don’t know what the circulation of Marca is, (though, I’m guessing you do since you seem to know everything else), but I think you make an interesting point by comparing Marca to The Sun, Mail etc., as these are the best selling papers in the UK and so quite clearly speak to the minds and prejudices of a large proportion of the UK, regardless of the quality of their journalism.

As far as I know, the Sun condemned the fan’s behaviour and would not have done so had they thought that displays of racism were acceptable to their readers.

I’m not about to defend the Guardian or any other newspaper for being right or wrong, but I think you’re misreading it if you think it is nationalist in bent. The Sun, however, is exceedingly jingoistic, and it could be argued that they have an anti-foreign (anti-Spanish in this case) agenda in condemning Spanish society for the behaviour of a few idiots. That said, I think you might concede that failure to condemn racism would be worse than not condeming it, right?

Comment from españolito
Time: February 6, 2008, 11:31 pm

All the Spanish media I read, hear or watch (which are almost all but Marca and AS which I don’t read) have condemned this incident. All of them.

Amazing how The Guardian has managed to find the only paper with a controversial opinion on this.

Comment from Jonny
Time: February 6, 2008, 11:38 pm

I should add in response to espanlito’s other questions, lest I be accused of ignoring difficult questions.

I do speak some Spanish, though not as much as I would like, and certainly I don’t know anything like enough to be able to regularly read Spanish newspapers without spending an entire day at it If I had my choice, and didn’t have to work for a living, I would be working to change this much harder than I am.

Secondly, one of the reasons I visit notes from spain so regularly is because I’m fascinated by Spain and want to learn as much as I can about it. My wife and I visit Spain as often as we can from Brooklyn, NY, and have, I can honestly say, enjoyed every single second we have spent in Spain over the past several years. If you feel my views are prejudiced then that tells me I need to learn more about Spanish society and its views, and I will concede that my earlier comments about Marca being the only lens through which to view Spanish attitudes to racism may have been misguided.

Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 7, 2008, 2:23 am

Johnny,
No need for you to apologize nor to back down. Españolito is trying to bully you. Don’t let him.

Españolito,
Marca is the No. 1 sports publication in Spain and one of the top circulation newspapers in the country. Don’t try to make people think that it’s hasn’t got any media influence.

I’m in Spain and I’m not getting this sense of media outrage that you referenced. I’m hearing the Spanish media reporting on the outrage in the U.K. but I don’t get any sense of outrage from Spanish media. In fact, El Pais, the so-called “progressive” newspaper of Spain had a story quoting Spanish psychologists and sociologists excusing the behavior of the Spanish fans.

The story’s headline was “No soy racista, pero eres un negro de mierda” ["I'm not racist but you're a black piece of shit." ] and the paper reached the conclusion that Spain suffers from a higher level of “social permissiveness” when it comes to tolerating these types of public displays of intolerance.

The article had a series of quotes from what would generally be considered enlightened, well-educated Spaniards. That is, until they opened their mouths on this topic and then the ignorance came spewing out. Here are a few of the priceless gems in the article:

“…es que, en España, “negro de mierda” (dicen) no siempre significa “negro de mierda”. ["It's that in Spain, calling someone a black piece of shit doesn't always mean a black piece of shit."]

“Se trata de ofender, de herir al otro. No hay racismo de fondo asociado”, explica el veterano investigador y sociólogo Juan Dí­ez Nicolás. ["It's about insulting, hurting the other. There's no racism behind it," says the veteran researcher and sociologist Juan Dí­ez Nicolás.]

“España no es racista, así­ lo avalan todos los estudios”, dice el sociólogo Dí­ez Nicolás. Es otro asunto. Es “falta de imaginación y gamberrismo. Está mal. Claro está, pero no hay que confundir los términos”. “Es como si llamaran gordo o enano a alguien”, sostiene este académico. ["Spain is not racist, it's been proven by all the studies," says sociologist Dí­az Niclás. It's something else. "It's a lack of imagination and troublemaking. That's bad. Of course it is but one shouldn't confuse the terms. It's like calling someone fat or a midget," asserts the professor.

"Eso no es despreciar a alguien por su raza", asegura una de las psicólogas consultadas. ["That isn't putting someone down for their race," asserts one of the psychologists consulted.]

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/soy/racista/eres/negro/mierda/elpepisoc/20080207elpepisoc_1/Tes

Now, if this is what Spanish’s intellectual elite are saying publicly, on the record, can you imagine what the average Spaniard thinks? Actually, we already know, thanks to Españolito & Co.

To Españolito, Parubin, Icecold, and all the other Spaniards in this forum who are working overtime to convince the rest of us that Spain doesn’t have a serious, deep-rooted problem on its hands, please, give it a rest. Stop defending the indefensible because your excuses are now falling on deaf ears.

Is it possible, even a little bit, that you all could be mistaken about this issue? That possibly there is room, somewhere, for improvement in Spain and for positive change? What do you have to lose by putting down your defenses, hearing other people out and examining what’s at the root of your defensiveness?

If you want to be a part of the solution and not the problem, open your eyes and your ears, and try to put yourself in the shoes of the “other.” Think of how you would feel in the same circumstances. It will be almost impossible for you to imagine, I’m sure, but just try. Challenge your friends and your family when they make weird, ignorant or hateful remarks about people of different races, cultures and ethnicities. Make them have to defend their ignorance. Do something at a personal level so that these kinds of debates in Internet forums will become a thing of the past.

P.S. What’s Marina’s opinion of this topic and the excuses made by her countrymen?

Comment from españolito
Time: February 7, 2008, 9:40 am

hereWeAgain,

I’m not trying to bully Jonny, I didn’t say Marca is not one of the newspapers with more circulation in Spain, I just said its “intellectual” level is on par with that of The Sun. It’s rubbish, not a serious newspaper.

Regarding the article in El Pais, I think the article says it all, “I’m not a racist, but you are a black shit”, tries to point out the cynical attitude some people in Spain have towars race. I think this article is a step in the right direction.

My point is, I dont’ think the UK media, or the British society in general are in the position to give us any lessons. Tidy up your house first, before you point your fingers at others . As I said before, let us walk our walk.I never said there’s no racism in Spain, I just said the British media have deliberately taken this incident out of context. and magnified it. Why?

Comment from españolito
Time: February 7, 2008, 10:05 am

HereWeGoAgain, I recommend you to listen to Chambao’s last song, “Papeles Mojados”, to see how a lot of people in Spain feel about putting ourselves in the shoes of the “others”.

“Ponte tú en su lugar”, that’s what this song says.

Comment from frank
Time: February 7, 2008, 10:18 am

“I just said the British media have deliberately taken this incident out of context. and magnified it. Why?”

Why just accuse the British press of this, the rest of the world is reporting the same story. It’s only the Spanish press that seems to think there was nothing racist about the incident. Whilst I’m not so naive as to read everything I read in the press, I would believe newspapers like the Guardian and the Times long before I would accept anything pumped out by the tebeos that Spain calls newspapers.
By the way, if "negro de mierda” doesn’t mean “black shit” , how do I call someone a “black shit” in Spanish. What would I have to say to show that I really meant someone was a “black shit”?
I’m confused! If in the unlikely event that there was, say a black politician in Spain, it would be ok for me to call him a “black shit or “hijo de puta”? He’d know that I wasn’t being racist, would he? That I was only having a bit of fun?

Comment from españolito
Time: February 7, 2008, 12:01 pm

Frank, it’s an old story, the British media exaggerates any misstep in Spain because it is bigoted against Iberians. That’s always been my impression, but I might be wrong.

The rest of the world is reporting this incident, but, in my opinion, their approach has been less bigoted. Mixing information with opinion is a sign of very bad journalism.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 7, 2008, 12:04 pm

For your info, “black shit” in Spanish would be “mierda negra”, which makes little sense in Spanish as insult.

“Negro de mierda” would translate into something like “Shitty N+++er”.

But it’s a racist insult, either way.

Comment from Jonny
Time: February 7, 2008, 4:55 pm

thanks for the support, HereWeGoAgain. Far from apologizing, I was actually trying to reason with Espanolito. And, far from castigating Spain as the only racist place on earth, i think many of the commenters on this blog are making valid points about racism generally. Surely, combating racism wherever it occurs is much better than simply ignoring it by saying it’s not so bad because immigration is only a recent issue in Spain, and they’ll grow out of it?
And, it’s alarming to me that El Pais tried to intellectualize racism by calling in psychologists and sociologists to explain why using racist epithets isn’t racist, just part of a permissiveness in Spain that allows people to insult one another. I refer to my earlier point about Louis Hamilton - if he felt that the behaviour of those idiot fans was racist and offensive then who are we (white people from Spain, Britain, wherever) to say that it wasn’t racist. As a black man, he is entitled to his feelings about this and the rest of us should be sensitive to them and take note.

Comment from frank
Time: February 7, 2008, 8:00 pm

“Frank, it’s an old story, the British media exaggerates any misstep in Spain because it is bigoted against Iberians. That’s always been my impression, but I might be wrong.

The rest of the world is reporting this incident, but, in my opinion, their approach has been less bigoted. Mixing information with opinion is a sign of very bad journalism.”

Españolito, I think generally Spanish people take themselves far too seriously, and as such have a persecution complex. Why should the British press have something against Spain, what would they stand to gain? It’s possible that the British press is more vocal because it is Hamilton. I imagine if he was French, German, Italian, then the their press would have been much more vociferous. Could you imagine what the Spanish press would have said if we had called Alonso a white shit! Ben found out to his cost, that when he wrote something here negative about Spain,(nothing nasty, nothing serious) he received an avalanche of hate mail from the Spanish. I read a British forum, and the question was asked what did people think of when they thought of England, and there was the expected replies, but there were also replies like “pools of sick after a Saturday night, fighting in the streets on weekends etc. These were English people replying, we can and do, laugh at ourselves, we don’t take ourselves anyhere near as serious as the Spanish do. Lighten up! Accept that we all have lots of faults.

Comment from windsor
Time: February 7, 2008, 10:03 pm

Ask a minority what they think about what white people call them “out of jest” or “out of what is culturally acceptable” and then you can defend your point. Remember, there was a time in the US when saying the word “ni&&er” was culturally acceptable. But now, people will lose their job if it is uttered because it HURTS, it brings people down and it is RACIST… it can’t be denied! It took the strong, the smart, the SENSITIVE and EMPATHETIC to take action and stand up for the rights of all. If anything, just admit that Spain should stand up for what is right - to me, it sounds like they are digging themselves into a deep hole by justifying and being defensive.

Comment from Nemisis
Time: February 8, 2008, 2:11 am

Please go back to watching tennis and leave F1 alone: not one of you follows this sport, if you did you would know that the idiots where removed from the race track and have been threatened with legal action by the circuit owners.

As to blacking up, morris men still do it in the UK.

Comment from frank
Time: February 8, 2008, 10:02 am

“Please go back to watching tennis and leave F1 alone: not one of you follows this sport,”

Is that a fact? On what is this assumption based?

“…if you did you would know that the idiots where(sic) removed from the race track and have been threatened with legal action by the circuit owners.”

Only threatened? Do you think this could have possibly happened because of all the press coverage? Do you think anything would have happened if it hadn’t been splashed around the world. Personally I doubt it very much, the organisers seemed very happy for them to enter and be in the ground dressed like that. (”Mr Calderon said no one on security said a word when the group arrived at the circuit dressed as “Hamilton’s family”. “On the contrary, the people on security at the gate started laughing and let us pass,” he said”. Only in Spain could that happen.) I said in an earlier thread that I bet nothing serious happens them, the bet is still on if you want to take it. As you are the only one here that follows F1, and with your vast superior knowledge of F1, could be a good bet for you.

.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 8, 2008, 11:05 am

frank,once again, I beg to disagree with you, completely:

1-When Mr Aragones told Reyes to prove he was better than that “negro de mierda” (Henry), the reaction of the French press was very different from the reaction of the British press in this Hamilton incident. In fact, it was also the British press who were the most vocal. The french are not that patronizing and condescent. It’s easier to accept criticism from people who don’t pretend to lecture you, who recognize their own mistakes and who appreciate your efforts
2-we don’t take ourselves too seriously, and, if there’s a people on earth who are self-critical, to a point that sometimes is funny, those are the Spaniards. You just have to read some internet forums or engage in a political discussions with a group of Spaniards to see how Spaniards talk about their own country. “Republica bananera”, “pais de mierda” are usually the softest terms.
3-BUT, as I said, it’s difficult to accept that level of criticism from outsiders, especially when they are trying to lecture you., and their own country is by no means much better than yours.

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 8, 2008, 11:33 am

The Spanish justice system is typified by the Farruquito case. He went through a red light at high speed, no insurance or license, killing a man and not bothering to stop. He then went on to attempt to cover up what he’d done by among other things getting his younger brother to falsely admit that he was the driver.

If it wasn’t for the victim’s family protesting loudly then Farruquito would have been let off with a slap on the wrist. It took 4 years to actually get him into prison but who knows how much time he will serve.

Great jamon but just a banana republic in some ways.

Comment from frank
Time: February 8, 2008, 2:22 pm

“then Farruquito would have been let off with a slap on the wrist. ”

Considering what was on the charge sheet, I would think that that could be regarded as a slap on the wrist! He has taken a life, and will be out walking the streets within a few years. It happens here in UK as well, some very lenient sentences.

Comment from Irish eyes
Time: February 8, 2008, 4:22 pm

Nemisis
Morris men black their faces? Are you sure?
I was involved in the folk circuit for many years in the South East of England and I never saw this.
Morris dancing is a pre-christian fertility rite. It is taken very seriously by the participants and while there have been accusations of sexism because some of the groups refuse to admit women, I was not aware of it having anything to do with race.

Comment from Rafe
Time: February 9, 2008, 12:47 am

Irish eyes, I think you will find that Nemisis is right, in many cases the Morris dancers do black up their faces. This could in fact be an exaggerated representation of Arabs because some believe that the word Morris derives from the word Moorish, being the culture where the dance came from rather than being pre Christian. What about the tradition of Black Peter in Holland? Doesn’t he come from Spain? What’s that all about? Anyone?

Comment from intrepida1981
Time: February 9, 2008, 1:58 am

A mí­ lo que me parece lamentable es que haya gente de color o de otras razas que borre a España de su ruta turí­stica porque teman ser linchados nada más poner un pie en el aereopuerto…

Comment from frank
Time: February 9, 2008, 9:59 am

“Great jamon but just a banana republic in some ways.”

I liked this case today in the paper, a guy 3 times over the alcohol limit, and he is let off!
http://tinyurl.com/335t5u

Comment from Toncho
Time: February 10, 2008, 1:04 pm

Carl said: I think the bottom line is that the Spanish sometimes lack the internal barometer to tell when something is racist. They themselves don’t know that they possess perceptions about race that others may find offensive. This will take time to learn. ”

I think you got this one right. Actually there was a debate here in Spain about that. It seems that for some of us is still the same to call someone fat, idiot, ugly or black and… we don’t do it because we are racist, we may do it (please remember that I am talking about a small part of the population) to offend the other person. This is wrong but, as Carl said is something that will need time. Nowadays, people around those people may laugh instead of report them like they would do in UK but things are changing and please remember we are talking about hooligangs here, some of the reactions, articles, etc about it were as racist against spanish people as the initial facts. Let’s not forget that we can not judge a country based on the behaviour of some barbarians, sure you don’t want us to start doing the same with UK.

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 10, 2008, 2:02 pm

If I understand Toncho correctly, for Spaniards to deride someone by using their skin colour [against them] is on a par with deriding someone for their physical failings like being overweight or ugly.

Sometimes, just sometimes, I feel very proud to be English.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 10, 2008, 4:10 pm

Toncho said SOME people in Spain still think that way, not “Spaniards”, like you said.

Stop generalising and stereotyping or you will seen just as xenophobic and ignorant as that people.

Sometimes, just sometimes, I feel very proud to not be like people like you.

Comment from Tom
Time: February 10, 2008, 5:02 pm

“1-You don’t speak Spanish and/or you don’t wnat [sic] to waste your time reading Spanish newspapers
2-The Guardian and the rest of the pathetic nationalist british media have zero interest in serious journalism
3-In fact, you’re not interested in knowing about us, you already have your prejudiced opinion”

@españolito: you’re really not making yourself look very well educated (dic: ets un home molt maleducat). The Spanish press HAVE NOT roundly condemned this incident as you claim and the vast majority of Spaniards I’ve spoken too see very little wrong with what went down at Montmelo. The general opinion here (as expressed in ‘newspapers’ like Marca) is that something happened but by far the worst aspect was the coverage provided by British newspapers.

Your jibe against the quality of The Guardian’s journalism is particularly interesting. Marca is one of the most read papers in Spain and it’s 100% dedicated to sport. In my years here, I’ve always thought that this says a lot about the concerns of the average Spaniard (and this is not necessarily a bad thing). The Guardian is by no means perfect but it is streets ahead of the Spanish press in terms of the quality of its journalism.

But it is your vociferous defence of what, in this case, is utterly indefencible, which I find most perplexing. Why is it that you find it such a personally insulting matter that The Guardian is critical of racists at the Circuit de Catalunya? There’s no question that other countries have problems too… what’s most worrying is that ‘españolitos com tu’ seem determined to bury their little heads in the ground rather than standing up for Lewis Hamilton. The reason for this is that Spaniards absolutely hate Hamilton - and this is what makes their reaction specifically racist: they are mocking him because they hate him.

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 10, 2008, 5:09 pm

Well what type of Spaniards do we have commenting here?

1) Apologists for the racists i.e. it was just a bit of fun

2) Apologists for the racists i.e. it is a language thing

3) Apologists for the racists i.e. it’s just a minority and it is the British press exaggerating the story anyway

4) The ‘olé’ Spaniards who can’t wait to give the tourists what they want to hear on tapas but can’t comment on anything of depth

What’s missing is those Spaniards who say what happened was wrong and shouldn’t happen again. No buts. No ifs. No excuses.

Comment from Joe
Time: February 10, 2008, 5:32 pm

I lived in Spain for 4 years, in a small town in Andalucia. I do NOT think that all Spanish people are racist, but from what I saw in that town Spanish people are less familiar with anti-black racism and it doesn’t always provoke the same outcry it would in other countries. Of course this exists in other countries too, but I don’t remember the last time a sports match was marred with racist comments in the UK.

Comment from frank
Time: February 10, 2008, 5:59 pm

“Let’s not forget that we can not judge a country based on the behaviour of some barbarians, sure you don’t want us to start doing the same with UK”

Do you think it’s not already happening?;-) In an F1 Spanish forum, we get the “gamberros ingleses”"Gibraltar” “The Empire”"buying all the property in Southern Spain” “Winston Churchill(true), and so it goes on.
None of which has anything do with the racism meted by the Spanish at Montmeló, but I guess when in a corner, you’ll resort to anything. But on those subjects, Spain has a pretty miserable record when it comes to imperialism, and definitely has it’s share of hooligans. Most of the British dependencies opted to remain “British” in some way, or are part of the Commonwealth, whereas the former Spanish territories like Cuba, all the South American countries, Philippines etc, could not wait to get rid of you. That must say something. And whilst Gibraltar and The Falklands wish to remain British (in the last vote, Gibraltarians voted over 98% to remain British and not have anything to do with Spain) we will respect their wishes.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 10, 2008, 7:02 pm

I have a question. Will Spaniards continue to taunt athletes of African descent in a similar fashion, now that they know that what was done to Hamilton is considered racist?

Comment from leftbanker
Time: February 11, 2008, 10:10 am

A very good discussion with some excellent points made so I will just lighten it up a bit with this from The Daily Mash.

Comment from leftbanker
Time: February 11, 2008, 10:17 am

OK, so I messed up and put in the wrong link. Are you going to start making fun of stupid people now? How about this:
The Daily Mash?

The other link was funny but a bit off-topic.

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 11, 2008, 10:34 am

Lol…I take it all back. Just a terrible misunderstanding and the guys with the blacked up faces were just celebrating the festival of Santo Ignacio de Loyola.

Comment from Toncho
Time: February 11, 2008, 1:06 pm

I am really sorry if my previous post looked like excuses but as a matter of fact the general feeling in Spain is shame, we do think that people like those should be baned and punished. What I was trying to explain is that (no excuse, more an explanation) for some spanish there is nothing “wrong” in saying such a thing, is just funny. This is teribly wrong but is like that and there are several reasons behind that. One is that we were not use to inmigrants till very recent times so we are not used to them and of course like in every society there are people that blaims foreigners for their own problems. Also there is something that is very spanish: we are not politically corect AT ALL, this is just against our culture, we made fun of everything and everyone sometimes to ridicoulus extremes i.e. people making jokes about terrorists atacks on Madrid or September, 11 (the following day there were tons of thems). I know this is a shock to you, but do not worry I think that nowadays we are getting more and more aware of this problem and people don’t tolerate such things specially when they are related to racism, machism…

That being said, what we can not really understand and make us furious, is that we are lectured as a society by the behaviour of few. This is not acceptable and let me tell you that when some british hooligans killed some turquish supporters, the spanish media were talking about police messures to avoid those guys in our soil, not reviewing your “history of violence” (this is not the place to talk about politics or history but every nation - specially those with a colonialist past- have their share of shame)…. Again, when british police killed by mistake a brazilian guy in the metro of london, spanish media was not talking about racism nor about the lack of integration of foreigners in Britain, the media was just describing the incident as a terrible mistake due to the stressfull situation we are living now…

To end with this, we are really ashame of this people behaviour, we hope they are baned, but please stop generalaisiing and lecturing us, is hard to accept from outside. As we say in Spain: My brother may be a bastard but if you say that i will hit you.

Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 11, 2008, 2:29 pm

It’s very obvious from the comments on this thread, as well as comments on previous threads that were viewed as insulting the Spanish, that Spaniards, in general, are incapable of handling any level of criticism or any sort of self-inspection. Not one single Spaniard who has posted on this thread has been able to say “Yes, we have a problem, period,” without adding “But you British are worse.” It’s so childish.

Also, to all the Spaniards who plead for tolerance and understanding of Spanish political incorrectness and the Spanish way of taunting and ridiculing people, I hope you extend the same tolerance and understanding and rethink your viewpoint the next time you’re about to make a generalization about how all Americans are ….. and all British are …..

It’s only fair, isn’t it? If you don’t like outsiders making generalizations about your society, then don’t you do it either.

Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 11, 2008, 2:32 pm

Oops, I meant to say “introspection” instead of “self-inspection.”

Comment from Tom Clarke
Time: February 11, 2008, 3:09 pm

Leftbanker - excellent! You’ve brightened up my Monday.

Comment from frank
Time: February 11, 2008, 4:38 pm

“This is not acceptable and let me tell you that when some british hooligans killed some turquish(sic) supporters,”

This sort of thing typifies a Spanish approach to the UK, and your one eyed reporting. You make a point about telling us about some Turkish supporters being killed, what you don’t tell us about is that a Leeds supporter “supposedly insulted” a Turkish van diver, and two Leeds supporters were knifed and killed. If you insist on telling us about British violence, and you clearly do, give us all the facts and not just cherry pick the bits that suit you.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/703283.stm

Give us a few home truths as well.
The recent conviction of Ricardo Guerra for the murder of Aitor Zabaleta, a Real Sociedad fan from Spain’s Basque region, is a case in point. Zabaleta’s death came in the aftermath of the stoning of an Atletico Madrid supporters’ bus after a cup tie played in San Sebastian, during which Atletico’s notorious Bastion group of hooligans, of which Guerra was a member, had chanted "Fuera, fuera maricones, negros, Vascos, Catalanes, fuera, fuera” (Get out, get out, queers, niggers, Basques and Catalans) to the tune of the Spanish national anthem.

Comment from Toncho
Time: February 11, 2008, 5:27 pm

HereWegoAgain, actualy my post is trying to explain the reasons behind, not to excuse such behaviour, I will call that introspection… anyway at least I tried. The paragraph about England was by no means trying to make a childish scalate, it was just trying to show how the media covered this story in such an unffair and exagerated way. Sorry if my points were not clear, english is not my mt after all.

That been said and for the sake of it, we spanish have a lot of room for improvement about this maybe this whole story will help to speed up the process. I also hope we will talk more about sport and less about racism.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 11, 2008, 9:13 pm

hereWeGoAgain, how can a person like you, who says “sin ponerse colorado/a”, as we say in Spain, that “Spaniards, in general, are incapable of handling any level of criticism or any sort of self-inspection.”, dare to accuse anyone of intolerance of any kind. How do you say “ver la paja en el ojo ajeno y no ver la viga en el propio”, in English?

To begin with, the Spaniards who post here, including me, are by no means representative of the average Spaniard. Guess why.

To continue, we don’t have the same opinion, and our opinions are only ours, obviously. Finally, talking about myself now, I never said, “you British are worse”. I just said I’m not willing to accept any lessons from the British or from anyone else , for that matter.

Someone in here said we should ask some black person’s opinion on this. Well, I did it, I talked about this with one person from Cuba and one person from Britain. Their opinions were completely different, because, guess what?, not all black people have the same opinion. Black latinos are latinos and black British are British. Seems obvious, doesn’t it?, well, a lot of people tend to forget this. I would have loved to talk about this with someone from Africa, but I don’t know anyone from there.

Comment from Toncho
Time: February 11, 2008, 9:19 pm

I found this interesting view on the net:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3341989.ece

This is my last post on this, promise!

Comment from españolito
Time: February 11, 2008, 9:29 pm

wow, Toncho, I’m shocked!, chapeau to The Times, but hey, that’s John Carlin, who is almost a Spaniard at heart, so I guess he doesn’t count. But there is hope…, there is hope

Comment from MedioGringo
Time: February 12, 2008, 8:20 am

Wow.

The irony in some these comments is so thick I want to spread it on a cracker and eat it.

Half of the Brits and Americans on this site are condemning an entire nation on the actions of a very visible few. The very essence of racism and discrimination.

Let’s all take a deep breath.

Comment from frank
Time: February 12, 2008, 9:29 am

“Half of the Brits and Americans on this site are condemning an entire nation on the actions of a very visible few. ”

As I quoted from a Spanish source, there were a lot more than four involved. Plus most people’s opinions are based on other facts and personal experience. But jif you wish to hear the real voice of Spain expressed, read a Spanish F1 forum, and then tell me it’s just a few.

No fue un hecho aislado, sino la conducta general de unos 3.500 aficionados que se dieron cita en la tribuna principal del circuito ayer por la mañana.

Comment from Joe
Time: February 12, 2008, 11:16 am

I would agree that Spanish people are not as good at accepting criticism - but then Brits are some of the best in the world at accepting it! While I lived in Spain I had all kinds of curious questions about “how bad life really is ‘up there’” and people tried to insult me by telling me about news items they’d seen about drunk people in town centres etc…in fact all I could do was agree in many cases, as often they did have a point - but this just made them even more angry, as they were expecting an angry defensive reaction! I hereby declare that I admit that Britain has race-related social problems. OK?

Comment from Joe
Time: February 12, 2008, 11:22 am

Another point - way off topic but I after this many posts it’s got to be allowed: ever notice how many Spanish people don’t seem to like “Ingland” much, but can’t get enough of London?

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 12, 2008, 11:32 am

@Joe: Or how many dislike the US but how most consume most of its products?

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 12, 2008, 11:45 am

I was only aware of anti-Americanism on a grand scale in Spain when Iraq was invaded and then Zapatero shortsightedly withdrew the Spanish troops. Absurdly 11-M didn’t seem to make Spaniards any more sympathetic to the US.

If Obama wins (and this can only be a thought experiment because he won’t) will Spain warm to the US?

Comment from MedioGringo
Time: February 12, 2008, 4:52 pm

@Frank

“As I quoted from a Spanish source, there were a lot more than four involved. Plus most people’s opinions are based on other facts and personal experience. But jif you wish to hear the real voice of Spain expressed, read a Spanish F1 forum, and then tell me it’s just a few.”

But you’re still using the same rationale. I could just as easily say “All these black American athletes are always getting into trouble with the law, therefore all black people are criminals”. It’s still just a very vocal minority, it’s just that those are the only people you notice.

I have a suspicion that the Spanish aren’t any more racist than Brits or Americans, it’s just that we’ve learned to mumble those same comments under our breath. What we do instead is condemn racism like it’s murder at every opportunity while harboring our own prejudices in private. Just ask Trent Lott. All those old racist American southerners are still here. People don’t suddenly become un-racist, you have to wait for them to die.

What the Spanish need to make sure they’re doing is condemning these comments so that the next generation can grow up in an environment where this isn’t tolerated.

Here’s a nugget of wisdom for your Spanish F1 forum:
http://www.joelogon.com/images_temp/successoryinternet400.jpg

Comment from Parubin
Time: February 12, 2008, 7:23 pm

Lewis Hamilton came back to Spain today to test his car in the Circuit of Jerez, Cádiz.

After the incidents in Barcelona last week (where he was abused by a small group of fanatics -despite what’s been said here it is clear in tv that he was harrased only by a very small number of fanatic bigots-) he received a warm welcome and the Spanish fans cheered at his arrival. He happily signed autographs for the fans at Jerez.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2008/02/12/motor/1202835150.html?a=2cc2600196aa743fd9e997e4b6c2c2ea&t=1202839253

And talking about posts on internet forums, I’ve read some nasty posts and comments on English papers quite bigotted -if not racist- against the Spaniards, not to mention the link to the article on ‘The Daily Mash’ (provided on a previous post here above) which was stupidly insulting despite its attemp to be funny or satirical.

What begun as a racist incident by a small group of idiots has turned into a war between the English and the Spanish media, which I think it’d be foolish to pursue.

Comment from Tom
Time: February 13, 2008, 12:22 am

The Daily Mash article was funny because it mocked stereotypes used by the English and made them look ridiculous. Surely you can see that.

Comment from SeMeQuEmA
Time: February 13, 2008, 12:27 pm

Don’t like hamilton cuz is a nasty player, ok, he is NEGRO, wtf? he is, we have no problem with that, have u??

Hamilton family use to be everywhere, is a good joke.

Think british press want u to think spain is racist and u want to belive that, is the only way to attack white Alonso, cuz is much better than your black hamilton. (^_^)

Comment from SeMeQuEmA
Time: February 13, 2008, 4:07 pm

One more thing, negro in sanish means black

Comment from SeMeQuEmA
Time: February 13, 2008, 4:07 pm

spanish**

Comment from Juan
Time: February 20, 2008, 10:51 am

Hey let’s talk about british hooligans they’re no racist they hit and insult everybody!!

Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 20, 2008, 2:58 pm

@Juan, sí­, como tú y tu “mierda de blog” como lo has nombrado. Deberí­as ser el último en decirle nada a nadie con tus entradas guarras sobre los anglos.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 20, 2008, 8:07 pm

Juan’s blog is almost as funny as the Daily Mash.

Tu tampoco estas para dar lecciones, HereWeGoAgain , a mi tu me las has intentado dar, cosa que yo contigo no he hecho.. Has intentado “educarme”, cosa que yo no he intentado contigo, porque te respeto.

En fin, que os vaya bonito a todos, un saludo y a madurar, Españoles y no Españoles

Comment from Peter Johns
Time: February 24, 2008, 2:26 am

Carmen from Murcia.. In the case you did not see: the people who insulted Hamilton were wearing black make-up on their face and calling him “negro hijo de p…” if this is not racist what is? If you want to make this incident just a matter of hate from Spain to Hamilton because of his personal issues with Alonso is your problem but don’t try to minimize the HUGE racism problem that Spain has. This is precisely the excuse Spanish people and the government use to cover it. Spain is the most racist country in Europe and one of the more racist countries in the world, it’s the reality.. sadly it is like this!!! I have been in most of the countries in Europe as well as Asia and North America but Madrid and Barcelona win the first price in racism.

For Jose Pedro coincidently from Murcia too, maybe you can dress-up the insults against Hamilton (negro hijo de p.., chimpance”) as part of your bast cultural traditions.. It is just a shame!!!

Comment from Peter Johns
Time: February 24, 2008, 2:28 am

Big racism problem in spain… you can not denie that… and it is getting worse because the people don’t see racist behavior in anything, espanolito for instance… it is just sad

Comment from Sam
Time: February 24, 2008, 12:39 pm

All countries have their racists, sexists, chauvinists, elitists, and social echelons. It always seems as though there is a pecking order. As per usual people fear things they do not understand and prefer sticking with things they know.

There is no excuse for racism only the hope that it will be eliminated as societies as a whole grow.

There is a problem when your technology evolves faster than your society.

Comment from UnVato
Time: March 10, 2008, 8:26 pm

Soy yo ingles y no temo de decir q en general somos tontisimos en cuestiones sociales. No entendemos una cultura q no sea la nuestra. Esta falta de comprension viene desde el hecho q nuestro nivel intelectual es muy bajo respeto a otros pueblos. En el continente de Europa hay una escala de inteligencia, desde los griegos y alemanes (1a posicion), luego catalanes, espanholes de todos tipos y italianos etc (2a)…luego los franceses, eslavos, escandinavos etc…y al fondo de la lista: ingleses.

Si no me crees vete a viajar x todo el continente (como he hecho yo 2 veces), y ya sera evidente!

Comment from Graeme
Time: March 10, 2008, 8:35 pm

Hay gente que pasa toda la vida viajando sin aprender nada.

Comment from Edith
Time: April 1, 2008, 11:36 pm

@UnVato

RE ‘En el continente de Europa hay una escala de inteligencia’

Los alemanes otra vez como raza superior… ¡porfa! ¿Te gustarí­a regresar a los años ‘nostálgicos’ de 1933-1945?

Todaví­a hay gente que sigue creyendo en estas generalizaciones absurdas, aunque la ciencia ha comprobado lo contrario… de verdad, soy incapaz de entender este forma de pensar.

Según los antropólogos y biólogos, no hay diferencias inatas de capacidad intelectual entre las razas y las etnias, y no existe una supremací­a racial. Este ideologí­a ya ha causado demasiadas guerras y genocidios en el mundo.

Comment from P.Daley
Time: April 8, 2008, 1:09 pm

My my…didn’t take long for the discussion to descend to this level.

JESUS LOVES ALL OF US!

Comment from Juan VC
Time: April 12, 2008, 11:47 pm

I never thought I would see an english guy write in spanish of how clever are the german people! This world is crazy…

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: April 13, 2008, 3:31 am

UnVato y si uno es medio aleman y medio griego, sera igual que siendo un frances?

Comment from UnVato
Time: April 13, 2008, 4:35 am

No entiendo…no teneis ese topio q los griegos son muy muy listos y los ingleses super tontos? Pensaba q si…

Comment from Ankle+Worshiper
Time: April 13, 2008, 4:43 am

Mira q el pueblo griego siempre ha sido muy muy muy muy inteligente, desde Chipre hasta Macedonia. Hoy en dia los griegos son los mas listos del planeta, tanto como en siglos pasados. Y antes de q me lo demandes, no soy griego, soy gallego-irlandes, xo reconozco la verdad.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: August 12, 2008, 12:14 pm

Mirad que pococ conocimiento tiene alguna gente:http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/11/olympicsbasketball.olympics20081

Comment from Marina
Time: September 2, 2008, 1:34 am

Hi, I found these two very interesting articles. It may throw a new light on Spain’s supposedly excessive racism:

- Who’s worse… these Spanish F1 fans or the frothing British media? Ar article by an English journalist who actually thinks that Spain is more racially tolerant than England.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3341989.ece

- Is Spain racist? A case study. Written by an American black male, who has not experimented racist or bad treatment in Spain. He has lived there and he makes a very realistic approach to the issue.

http://equipaje.wordpress.com/2006/07/05/is-spain-racist-a-case-study/