Comment from HereWeGoAgain
Time: February 11, 2008, 8:28 pm

Ben,
You’re confusing the issues by rolling up the topic of racism inside a discussion about cultural differences. Better to keep the two issues separate. If Spaniards have a different sense of humor than the British, fine, no problem. If a Spanish waiter wants to be grumpy, let him be grumpy. If customer service in Spain sucks, it sucks. But to somehow try to make a connection between those things and the racism problem that Spain is in denial about, only serves to muddy the waters and makes it that much harder for people to be clear on what the real issue is.

By the way, were you an obfuscating corporate attorney in another life? Because you sure do sound like one in the following sentence!
You say: “If the person who any given attack is directed towards is likely to take offense or feel discriminated against as a result of that action, and the perpetrators are aware of that risk or doing it for that very reason, then it’s pretty obviously wrong.”

So, let me see if I follow your logic here….it’s only racism when one or both parties are conscious of it? Did I get that right? Because that’s what you’re saying here.

Comment from españolito
Time: February 11, 2008, 8:53 pm

very good post Ben, congratulations!

Comment from BrianA
Time: February 11, 2008, 9:03 pm

I think the terminology is incorrect here. What is wrong is “racial abuse”. Racism itself is merely the theory that a person’s abilities are based on race and like all generalisations is likely to be wrong. In Spain, like most places, there is bound to be some reaction if you see parts of your country being changed by incomers. In many parts of industrialised Spain this was at one time Spaniards from other, more rural regions, now it is immigrants fuelling the rural economy. They are received with a mix of compassion and unease. Meanwhile those with more extreme views will always find an outlet but we should not judge the whole nation by their actions.

Comment from Carl
Time: February 11, 2008, 10:54 pm

I’m having the same problem as you Ben deciding if I am being too hard on “Spanish humor”. I wrote an entry on my Blog about a video I thought was pretty racist, then I took it off because I questioned if I was just overreacting. Anyway, I put it back.. click my name.

Comment from Eleventhfloor
Time: February 12, 2008, 1:06 am

I’m from Glasgow where its more of a religious thing. Protestant and Catholic. I don’t agree with any kind of discrimination and it doesn’t matter how its dressed up, its still bigotry or racism or sectarianism. I couldn’t care less what you are and I think that for anyone to think any different they must have a screw loose. Being Scottish and wanting to move to Spain I’m now worried that the Spaniards might object to a strange sort of blue coloured person.

Comment from Ben
Time: February 12, 2008, 7:42 am

@Brian - I think you are right, racial abuse is the term I was looking for.

@herewegoagain - I’m not mixing up incompatible issues, I’m just exploring how much or a right we have to be as judgemental as we often are.

@eleventhfloor - don’t worry, I know lots of Scots here who get on with the Spanish just fine!

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 12, 2008, 9:28 am

I don’t know why Españolito is celebrating here. If Ben is right then Spain is 30 years behind the UK on the race issue and worse, unable to learn from the mistakes of others because those others are ‘outsiders’.

I wonder if it will follow that by 2038 there will be gangs of feral Spanish teenagers roaming the streets of Madrid ready to kick to death or stab anyone who might look at them the wrong way?

Comment from Edith
Time: February 12, 2008, 11:08 am

This raises another question. Cultural awareness has become much more important in the UK over the last few decades. Would a character like Manuel (the Spanish waiter in ‘Fawlty Towers’) be politically correct today? I remember how Basil used to make fun of his poor English, slapping him over the head in the process. This was the only part of Fawlty Towers I didn’t like much.

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 12, 2008, 11:23 am

Fawlty Towers was released in the mid 70s and cannot be compared in any way to blacked up white Spaniards shouting puto negro at a black sportsman in 2008.

Comment from Theresa
Time: February 12, 2008, 12:06 pm

I laughed my head off at that video, so I must be Spanish. If only that would count to get citizenship, but no they want all sorts of papers instead. For funny have a look at this. Some people love it, others are offended by it, but I think it sums up Spanish humor pretty well.

Comment from Juanjo
Time: February 12, 2008, 4:52 pm

“And all Spanish waiter’s are rude, aren’t they?”

I disagree with that statement, in fact one of the “essences” of Spain to me over the last 35+ years is the high quality of waiters’ service.

It seems that it is a profession in which they take a pride in their work. In a top restaurant or a simple venta my experience has been that the table service has usually been superb- far better than I have experienced in many other countries, including the UK.

Juanjo

Comment from Dave_K
Time: February 12, 2008, 5:23 pm

Very Po-Mo post, Ben. ; ) Moral relativism can be pushed too far, though, IMO.

Torrente sounds like the Spanish Archie Bunker.

Comment from Corey
Time: February 12, 2008, 5:41 pm

Andrew, why cannot be compared?

Comment from Jon Hundt
Time: February 12, 2008, 6:35 pm

Andrew said:

“Spain is 30 years behind the UK on the race issue and worse, unable to learn from the mistakes of others…”

I had an experience with an English fellow back in ‘76 - he kept asking me “why does America have such racial problems?” and he kept telling me how England DID NOT HAVE ANY RACIAL PROBLEMS - as long as the “coloreds” knew and kept their place.

I could have written the same sentence then as Andrew did now, substituting some country names.

Comment from Ben
Time: February 12, 2008, 6:58 pm

@Juanjo - “I disagree with that statement” - me too, there are a few waiters in Madrid that really brighten my day when I eat in their restaurant, but unfortunately not everyone sees things that way…

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 12, 2008, 7:21 pm

Hello Jon Hundt: Thanks, reinforces my point but that would mean Spain is 60 years behind the US - it’s not that bad surely!

Hello Corey: As upsetting as it must be to see that scene where Manuel is hit over the head with a spoon by the nutty English hotelier, I don’t think it has quite the same significance as a white man abusing a black man because of his skin colour. Something to do with no long history of Englishman vs Spanish waiters but a very long and painful history of
black oppression. Is black history studied in Spanish schools btw?

Comment from Mrmark
Time: February 12, 2008, 8:19 pm

Mmm. Saw on the news that Hamilton was driving in Jerez today, and no scenes. Perhaps this proves that it’s only Catalans who behave badly,,,,wait, no, that’s a racial stereotype in itself!

For all those labouring under the impression that it’s only Spanish who dark up in fiesta time, may I suggest you look up “Darkie Day Cornwall”. Although this may be inappropriate nowadays, I don’t think it shows the English (or Cornish) are necessarily rascist. As Ben points out a lot is all down to social habit.

Comment from Edith
Time: February 13, 2008, 9:14 am

@ Andrew,

Now I see how sensitive this issue is - most people like to blame other nations but they circle the wagons when their own country is concerned. It’s not only about Spain, the UK, the USA or Holland.

I still think Manuel was treated in an appalling way, and these scenes never appealed to me. They always me of the humiliating treatment meted out to servants (or should I say ‘coolies’?) in the colonial days.

@ MrMark

In Holland, blackface is still worn in public by so-called Zwarte Pieten (Black Peters) on December 5, during the Sinterklaas festivities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Peter

Many Dutch people become very defensive when this issue is mentioned, but I think the black Pieten should be abolished.

We have a large Afro-Caribbean population too, and traditions like this are just no longer appropriate in this day and age. It would be very easy to change the Pieten’s appearance a little, for instance by using carnavalesque colors like blue and green.

Comment from Edith
Time: February 13, 2008, 9:17 am

TYPING ERROR: They always me = they always reminded me

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 13, 2008, 11:45 am

Edith’s Manuel comparison is so bizarre that for the sake of my health this is my last word on the racism incident I promise (una promesa a mi mujer tambien ).

When I saw the news story and then when Ben blogged it I thought it was clearcut racism - I still do. What I’ve learned is that however obvious something might seem there is no guarantee that anyone else would see things the same way (okay, that’s obvious in itself but bear with me). Ben takes this chance everytime he posts something here and I admire him for it.

I have truly been astonished at how many excuses have been offered for the individuals who abused Hamilton. On this site I would say there was an 80/20 split in favour of the racism being a misunderstanding, just fun, a carnival related event, totally out of character etc. Frequently comments against the racists have been rejected because the commenters are not Spanish and therefore they should sort out their own back yard before criticising Spain.

What I have enjoyed though is the debate, and I’m grateful to Ben for triggering it and providing this platform - hats off to you!

So, I’ve just finished reading Martin Amis’s new book ‘The Second Plane’ and a couple of things he says reminded me of this debate. He asked an audience, in London I think, to raise their hands if they felt morally superior to the Taliban, and less than a third did. Also in a debate on live TV (BBC’s Question Time) he gave a “tediously centrist” answer to a question on the Iraq war. He said that instead of invading Iraq the US should have been focussed on sorting out al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. He thought he was on safe ground in the mostly anti-war UK, on the BBC, but his statement was met with “gapes and frowns”. Then a woman in the audience said that because the Americans had armed the Islamists in the first place then they should drop bombs on themselves - the audience applauded this statement unanimously!

Comment from Edith
Time: February 13, 2008, 12:46 pm

@ Andrew

Bizarre? I think my comparison was spot-on. There was a name for people like Manuel in those days, a three-letter name which starts with a W and ends with a G. A special name for Spaniards and Italians. This word is no longer used in print because it’s considered to be racist and offensive. But the existence of this word explains why so many people thought it funny to watch Basil hitting a small Mediterranean-looking man over the head with a spoon.

Going off on a tangent is a bit silly. I mean, what on earth has Afghanistan got to do with this discussion?

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 13, 2008, 1:43 pm

Yeah silly me, it wasn’t really about Afghanistan but maybe I didn’t make my point clearly enough.

Comment from Ray
Time: February 14, 2008, 7:39 am

Excellent website and podcast Mr. Curtis!
I also think that it is important to look at the cultural differences that exist between Spain and other countries, as you have.

I have only been married to a Spaniard since 1999, and she sometimes comes across as a little bit xenophobic (ironic, since she married a foreigner) other time she says or does things that are blatantly racist. Although it is usually apparent that she’s only repeating a phrase or widely-held Spaniard public-opinion.

It is difficult to define what an entire country’s society is or isn’t, but there are some things that you can get a feel for after living in one country for a while, and then moving to another, and simply observing what difference in topics of conversation, TV shows, insults, turns-of-phrase - and whether or not the person blushes when they say them.
Coming from working in construction in the southern states of the U.S., and having worked a bit in construction here in Spain, as well as less physically demanding work - my diagnosis is:
- Part of Spanish culture is to say what you think / feel, with no regard to how other people are going to react / feel about what you say. (all cultures have some people who do this more than others, of course, but in Spain I have found it to be more or less universal to speak in this manner.)

- In other countries, sayings, idioms, turns-of-phrase, etc. that express racist ideas are (at least nowadays) more often reacted to with disdain than they are in Spain.

I have seen individuals in the States who were used to saying things that were offensive and racist in meaning, but who meant no real malice when saying them. Luckily, all it took was a few dirty looks from their peers, and a “do you realize what you’re saying?” for these people to stop coming across as so ignorant.

I think the same can happen in Spain, but it will have to be people, Spaniards, on an individual level, one by one, setting a good example for each other - but for now - racism is still culturally a bigger part of “Spain” than it is for other places.

Comment from BrianA
Time: February 16, 2008, 2:12 pm

Spanish waiters? I’ve always found them very helpful & suited to the relaxed Spanish eating experience. They do tend to leave you alone until you are ready to attract their attention, but I prefer that to having someone hovering around the table all the time with stupid questions. On one occasion after an hour of animated conversation & vino we realised we’d not yet ordered food! As to Manuel, he was “born” at a time when the British were learning to go abroad on holiday and found foreigners’ attempts at English funny. I guess if it was being made today he’d probably have been an economic immigrant.

Comment from richardksa
Time: February 17, 2008, 2:30 am

The treatment of Manuel points towards the sort of character John Cleese was portraying rather than making a generalisd racist joke. The joke was on Basil Fawlty.
In the Spanish sit com Aida, the same happens with the bar owner Mauricio and his South American dogsbody. The Spanish laugh at Mauricio and find him atrocious.
I have lost count of the times I have received a withering look from my girlfriend coupled with an emphatic “British humour - Huh!”

Comment from Graeme
Time: February 17, 2008, 10:57 am

I have heard that Fawlty Towers was actually shown in Cataluña at one point, and they changed the nationality of Manuel to Italian, which probably gives us an idea of how the Catalans view Italy.

Comment from Pepino (Dave Hall)
Time: February 20, 2008, 3:10 pm

Yep, I´ve seen the Fawlty Towers DVD in Catalunya and Manuel is actually Italian in it (Paulo, if I remember rightly).

Comment from Bixito
Time: March 10, 2008, 8:20 pm

Otro puto imperialista anglo-sajon con sus mentiras…xq debiamos compartir nuestro pais con esos cerdos tan estupidos?

Comment from Protagonista
Time: March 12, 2008, 1:15 pm

Bixito - mereces tu mote!