Comment from ese
Time: February 19, 2008, 9:12 am

Este no será un post para provocar como el de “Las 10 cosas que menos me gusta de España”.

Comment from Ben
Time: February 19, 2008, 9:16 am

Para nada. Just honest observations of two countries I love. And of course, Spain always wins

Comment from ryan
Time: February 19, 2008, 9:34 am

Your itching for a dust up! I have to say I agree with more, though I don’t know how you can have too much red meat! I would add that like in Spain, you drink the wine that is in front of you. No Spanish wine in France, and no French wine in Spain. Also love the French tradition of cheese plates with more than one choice!

Comment from españolito
Time: February 19, 2008, 9:56 am

ay,ay,ay, Ben, esto es una provocación muy grande, preguntar si es mejor España que Francia, ay Dios mio, acabas de darnos donde mas nos duele, esto puede acabar muy mal.

Mi opinion, Francia no está mal, pero España, y tambien Italí­a, están mucho mejor. Lo siento, mi opinion no puede ser otra. Sin embargo, en lo de los pasteles, tienes razon, me duele reconocerlo, pero los Farnceses son los mejores pasteleros del mundo. Bueno, vale, Francia es posiblemente el pais mas bonito de Europa, pero esta lleno de Franceses(es broma).

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 19, 2008, 10:09 am

I do find France much prettier, more manicured and it does attract a better class of tourist and expat than Spain. The French also seem a bit more intellectual than the Spanish but maybe the education system is better, I don’t know.

The great thing for Europeans is having these 2 countries nearby and to enjoy the diversity.

Comment from Parubin
Time: February 19, 2008, 11:46 am

1) French countryside is superb. Everything seems to be in its right place.

2) Quite a number of French people speak Spanish. Almost no one in Spain speaks French.

3) Spanish streets are way cleaner and tydier than French streets. It’s not only dog shit but also rubish, litter bags dumped on very many French streets.

4) Normal eateries for regular people and day to day basis are far better in Spain. The French version of a ‘Menú del Dí­a’ type of restaurant (a brasserie) tends to be awful.

5) Resting areas for drivers in French motorways are amazing.

6) The sense of style in dressing seems to be superior south of the Pyrenees.

7) French Prime Ministers have exquisite tase regarding women.

Comment from Lesley
Time: February 19, 2008, 11:55 am

Who wins? We all win because the countries complement each other, they’re not in competition.
Having said that, French bread is a thousand times better than Spanish bread.
PS. Where were you in France?

Comment from Lesley
Time: February 19, 2008, 12:00 pm

PPS I think the “thou” in English actually corresponds to “tu” in French.

Comment from gary
Time: February 19, 2008, 12:32 pm

In Spain its a nightclub - In the UK it would be a health and safety teraching aide.

This is not a criticism, I have a publican friend that was forced to create a section of bar for wheelchair access. Most laudible you might say. Well, yes. but to get to the bar any disabled person would have had to negotiate a flight of 20 stairs… madness.

This reminds me of the wheelchair ramps on the Metro in Barcelona that are at the foot of a stairscase/escalator wityh no acces by lift…

European Legislation, eh?

Comment from gary
Time: February 19, 2008, 12:33 pm

Paris must be the dogshite capital of the world

Comment from Louise
Time: February 19, 2008, 12:39 pm

Ok, not wishing to start any arguments, but castilla y leon is referred to as the bread basket of spain for a reason. Don’t dis spanish bread till you’re eaten some from this region! Over the xmas period i spent some time in Alicante and Jaen and would agree on the whole the bread was rubbish, especially when compared to the heavenly delights we get delivered everday from our local panadero.

Comment from Beckett
Time: February 19, 2008, 2:08 pm

Spanish men sound sexier when they speak Spanish than French men do speaking French. The Spanish, in general, are nicer and more appreciative of tourists who try to speak Spanish than the French.

Comment from Tom Clarke
Time: February 19, 2008, 2:16 pm

Actually, I think that France is becoming more ’standardised’ (I can’t think of a better term) than Spain. What I’m talking about is health and safety issues like putting plastic gloves on your hands before picking up fruit and veg in the supermarchée, closing the top bit of the Pont du Gard, etc.

Spain, luckily, has still not adopted these irritating life-saving measures - and long may the dangerous traditions live on here.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 19, 2008, 2:28 pm

I would not exclude one for the other but would make room for both because they both have great offerings. I think both places have great cuisine to offer anyone who appreciates it. I loved Paris when I went there in ‘05 on business and would love to return there for pure pleasure. My wife, who went with me, bought a pair of shoes which are her favorites. Upon close inspection I discovered they were made in Spain.

Comment from Pepino (Dave Hall)
Time: February 19, 2008, 3:06 pm

I’m in Paris right now working, and can’t wait to get back to Barcelona tomorrow. I’ve spent most of December/January/February in France, and although Paris is undoubtably beautiful, it just doesn’t float my boat like Spain does. Why, I don’t know. I need to think about that one.

Regarding the dog poop problem, I would agree. A particular low point for me was when I saw a woman in a restaurant casually relax as her mini toy poodle had a crap on the floor by the table, and the poor waitress had to come over and clean it up without barely an apology from the irresponsible and downright dirty owner.

On the inside of my hotel door, just under the fire escape plan etc, it gives the standard rates of the rooms, and includes details of the “pet supplement”. I’ve not seen this in hotels in Spain. I love dogs, and miss my own dog which now lives with my parents in England, but I really don’t like the thought that a dog may have had the run of my hotel room on a previous night.

I think I’ll start a campaign…. “PARIS, PICK UP YOUR POO-POO!”

Comment from Edith
Time: February 19, 2008, 3:38 pm

The dog poo capital of the world is Amsterdam.

Comment from Edith
Time: February 19, 2008, 3:45 pm

Nothing beats the real French fries, and one of my favorite French dishes is ‘coq au vin’. (but I can do without ‘paté de foie gras’).

As a result of their Latin heritage, both countries have got an excellent national cuisine. I agree with Ben’s observations regarding Spanish and French food.

Comment from Pepino (Dave Hall)
Time: February 19, 2008, 4:03 pm

Quote Edith: “The dog poo capital of the world is Amsterdam”

I’m surprised they don’t just scoop it into a canal

Maybe one day, genetic engineering will give us a dog that you can empty when convenient, a bit like a vacuum cleaner. jeje

Comment from Edith
Time: February 19, 2008, 5:24 pm

Let’s hope they’ll find something to deal with the cats, too! They always crap in people’s gardens instead of using the litter tray! Okay, back on topic.

@ Ryan

RE French vs. Spanish cheeses: Spain has got some good-quality cheeses of its own, but they should promote them more vigorously!

Comment from SergiMan
Time: February 19, 2008, 8:22 pm

French pastry shops better than the Spanish ones… hummm I see lsome Madriditis here and again :-(( Come to Catalonia and enjoy our daily baked “pastes” and “pastissos”!!!

Comment from Maria S.
Time: February 19, 2008, 8:40 pm

Edith wrote:
“but I can do without paté de foie gras.”
Be careful not to confuse the two with a French person, it is “paté” versus “foie gras”. I did and was lectured about that for about 10 minutes by my French-American in-law. There was a very explicit explanation on how they are different, but I only remember the price difference right now. Paté runs about € 5 a jar and foie gras is € 26 a jar. No wonder I deserved a lecture. The foie gras was excellent but I am not inclined to buy it for an appetizer only…

Comment from ese
Time: February 19, 2008, 10:10 pm

Ben, las comparaciones son odiosas. Ya sabemos que los franceses son más ricos, y gana a España en número de turistas, y que Francia está en el G-8 y España no. Y que España no pinta nada en el mundo, y Francia sí­. No hace falta que nos lo recuerdes, yo lo asumo.

Comment from Edith
Time: February 19, 2008, 10:41 pm

@ Maria,

Is paté processed - could this be the difference?

Comment from Dave_K
Time: February 19, 2008, 10:55 pm

Ben, you forgot the most important one — French vs. Spanish babes.

I give the nod to Spain (I’m biased), though I have seen some fine French fillies (before I was married, of course) ;).

Comment from españolito
Time: February 19, 2008, 11:00 pm

la verdad es que ese tiene razon…

Comment from españolito
Time: February 19, 2008, 11:09 pm

Dave_K, que mal suena “babes” a mis oidos españoles, me suena muy machista. Si yo le digo “nena” a mi novia, me parte la cara, y con razon.

Comment from TomC
Time: February 19, 2008, 11:14 pm

I found that breads and even Croissants are better in Catalunya. I was really surprised. And I never experienced the famous French rudeness! Didn’t they start a campain to curb dogs in Paris a few years ago? I found Paris to be beautiful but it didn’t have the cozy feel of Barcelona. Maybe because of the wide streets. I will go back as soon as possible though, especially with the Ryanair hub right in Girona.

Comment from Dave_K
Time: February 19, 2008, 11:23 pm

@espanolito: “babe” no tiene nada que ver con “nena”.

I realize the rest of my post may sound machista, but I made it that way on purpose for ironic effect (I thought the two s conveyed this, but perhaps not).

Comment from Edith
Time: February 20, 2008, 12:07 am

Babes, fillies - why is it that women are always compared to something small, infant-like or juvenile?

Comment from richardksa
Time: February 20, 2008, 12:15 am

After continually visiting France for years I was preparing to settle - then, by chance I came to Madrid. I haven’t been back to france since.
Spain is friendlier, cleaner, cheaper.
However, I do prefer French wine, but that’s because I haven’t found a Spanish wine like a bordeaux and I am particular. If anyone is willing to finance my search and prove me wrong ….!
And yes, French pastry is exquisite.
But the wine and the pastry is not enough for me to want to return there. I certainly will not miss unfriendly French waiters. I’m sure they go to a special school to graduate in superior sneering!

Comment from Ben
Time: February 20, 2008, 9:01 am

@Lesley - Toulouse

Comment from Juan
Time: February 20, 2008, 9:24 am

Spain and France are two contries that lives back to back without watching their faces. (sorry about my english) Like Spain and Portugal. I like the two contries with their good and bad things.

Comment from Pepino (Dave Hall)
Time: February 20, 2008, 10:16 am

I think Spanish pastries are truly excellent for the most part (certainly in Barcelona at least). I love a nice croissant oozing with guey chocolate sauce! hmmmmm. The one’s they serve for breakfast on Air France flights defy eating at the best of times. All wrinkled and dry! (Although I accept this is not representative of what you get in the pastry shops in France generally! jeje)

As for the “babe” business, it’s all in the delivery and the person you’re talking to. I would never call my boss “nen”, but I do to my mates and no-one “me ha partido la cara” so far! jeje.

Comment from Amy
Time: February 20, 2008, 3:56 pm

Coming from a girl very far away from both Spain and France, I can say that something very similar about the two is that I long to be in both places. The food is amazing in both Spain and France, but one big difference I’ve found as a visitor in both places is that I’ve found the Spanish to be much more friendlier and a culture I could embrace more easily - they just have a certain energy that the French cities I’ve been to don’t have. Each time I’ve returned from Spain, I felt as though I could live there. I’ve never felt that way about France (although it is absolutely lovely and one of my last meals would probably involve fois gras). You also can not top the tascas in Spain - they can not be recreated anywhere else on earth.

Comment from Irish eyes
Time: February 20, 2008, 7:29 pm

@Dave_K “my post may sound machista, but I made it that way on purpose for ironic effect”
Oh, does that mean you can say offensive things if they are meant to be a joke?
In the recent debate about the events in F1 most of the English speakers seemed to to think otherwise.
While many people do use ‘babe’ as a term of endearment to someone they know intimately, The way you used it was perjorative. As to ‘filly’, I can’t think how that term could be anything other than offensive. Women are not small children or animals, even the pretty ones.

Comment from Dave_K
Time: February 20, 2008, 9:27 pm

Oh boy….

To say, for example, that Penelope Cruz is a “babe” is offensive? Really? To who? Because that’s exactly the sense of the term that I used.

And “fine French filly” is comparable to dressing up in blackface and making monkey hoots at a Black man? Did you really think I was comparing French women to young female horses?

In any event, I apologize to all the French women (and young female horses, for that matter) that I may have offended.

Comment from Edith
Time: February 20, 2008, 10:31 pm

@ Irish Eyes

I don’t think for a moment Dave meant to be offensive.

But unfortunately, these words have become so deeply engrained into our cultural consciousness that we no longer realize what they actually stand for. Applying a little reverse psychology is always helpful here!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 21, 2008, 1:26 am

Anyone see the movie Babe? Oops, I mean vocal, porcine, nevermind…

Comment from Nicole
Time: February 21, 2008, 3:49 am

I just came back from Madrid two days ago. My husband and I spent about a month in France (about a week in Paris). Without a doubt, the Spanish were so much happier and more friendly. I liked the food in both places - but truth is the USA is a better place for vegetarians.

What might keep me from living in Madrid? The smoking. France finally made smoking illegal in bars etc. whereas in Madrid, smoking is the norm. Even in the rare non-smoking places, people in Spain smoked. It was really a pity that all these lovely people were poisoning themselves and others to such a large degree. It was awful.

BUT, the clubs in Madrid were accessible and reasonably priced. Except for the smoking, without a doubt Madrid is Marvelous!

Comment from Ben
Time: February 21, 2008, 8:14 am

I so agree about the smoking point - it was so nice to go to restaurants in France and not leave stinking of smoke. I know that no one is addressing this in Spain due to fear of loosing votes in the March elections, but I really hope that after that Spain will start to fall in line with France, Italy, the UK, and Irelance on this one.

I don’t know if I’m getting old, but going out to smoke-filled bars is starting to really pxxx me off!

Comment from gary
Time: February 21, 2008, 11:16 am

no death threats from the French yet

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 21, 2008, 2:02 pm

@ Ben, you might include the US, at least the more urbanized and progressive locations. We unfortunately still have cities in the US were smoking is allowed in bars and restaurants. In my county, smoking in restaurants and bars are forbidden but if you cross over to Virginia, it is permitted and what a difference it makes to have smoke-free locations. My wife and I will not enjoy that aspect of Madrid, when we go this spring. We also enjoyed a smoke-free Paris. When will the rest of the world synch up with the obvious choice: ban smoking in places designed for the public?

Comment from Ben
Time: February 21, 2008, 3:33 pm

@VS - We’ll find some nice non-smoking places for you

Comment from Estuart
Time: February 21, 2008, 7:03 pm

@Ben,Valenciason,Nicole. I agree that it would be pleasant to have non-smoking bars/restaurants but why do you advocate ALL public establishments ? There has to be a choice left in this world somewhere for the proprieter & customer or do we pass all decisions over to those who need to interfere in other peoples legitimate activities.I am shocked that France/Ireland/Italy capitulated so easily but not surprised by the UK/USA as they love to follow all rules regardless of the effect.Viva Espana

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 21, 2008, 7:18 pm

Because smoking is an unhealthy habit which also impacts those who choose not to and it removes from the enjoyment of the venue. Having a no-smoking section in a restaurant is like having a no peeing section in a public pool.

Comment from Estuart
Time: February 21, 2008, 7:57 pm

Valenciason,there are alot of unhealthy habits & pastimes that are accepted by a liberal/tolerant society,but it seems that we need to regulate completely.A significant number of a population smoke but can be disregarded on a whim so what happens to a minority ?This is a law with no regard for the wishes of alot of people.Draconian,i say.Soon there will be’a forced total body evacuation law’ so don’t worry!For the sake of the individual lets hope the Spanish think of ways to accomodate all their citizens & not just the ones that irritate a vocalised section.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 21, 2008, 10:31 pm

This type of individuality (smoking) is not confined to the individual. It has deleterious effects on others close by and has claimed more lives than drunk driving. Why have laws at all if avoidable consequences are not to be considered by governments?

Comment from richardksa
Time: February 22, 2008, 12:42 am

But it is simple. Bars and restaurants have notices at the entrance saying you can or you cannot smoke. So, you have a choice. Much more civilised that a blanket ban.
Smokers are people too!!!!!!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 22, 2008, 1:47 am

If they must smoke. they should so without impact to others.

Comment from estuart
Time: February 22, 2008, 7:28 am

Valenciason,I agree with you.Lets give the smokers their bars/pubs.Non-smoking places must be totally smoke-free.Problem solved.All the people are happy.Yippee!Common sense returns to the world.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 22, 2008, 2:25 pm

What if one day a non-smoke bar turns into a smoke bar? Do we really need all this lung cancer?

Comment from Parubin
Time: February 22, 2008, 2:39 pm

Another point is being missed here. Almost all smokers would like to quit at some time.

Pubs and Restaurants being places for socializing are where many began smoking or where many failed to kick the habit.

I’m pretty much sure that if smoking is banned from all bars, pubs and restaurants the number of newly addicted will drop and the number of smokers successfully quitting will increase, much to everyone’s delight.

So the ban is not only be a measure for protecting the non-smokers but I believe it is also a quite effective way of preventing future tabaquism.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: February 22, 2008, 3:12 pm

Having worked on occasion on the cancer units at NCI I think banning smoking is worth risking the loss of civil liberties.

Comment from Edith
Time: February 22, 2008, 3:16 pm

Very good points, Parubin! Everyone who lost a loved one as a result of smoking will agree with that.

Apart from that, banning smoking from the public domain will be such a relief for people such as children and asthmatics. Thank goodness, it has already been banned in the workplace as well as in other places where people have to go every day.

Therefore, I’m really looking forward to the restaurant smoking ban which will go into into effect here in Holland on July 1.

Native Americans, who discovered tobacco, used it mainly for ceremonial purposes - how could it ever become such a cancer in our society? (the same way alcohol became a huge problem in theirs).

Comment from Andrew
Time: February 22, 2008, 10:10 pm

I am yet to see a pub/bar/cerverceria/taverna here in Madrid that “no permite fumar”. Maybe they exist somewhere? Also, the non-smoking areas are a joke - everybody knows it.

Comment from Lluna
Time: February 24, 2008, 3:16 am

Actually, “thee” and “thou” are the informal forms of English. You guys speak all the time in the formal.

Comment from Irish eyes
Time: February 24, 2008, 12:32 pm

@Estuart, I think the Irish were also surprised by how easily they took to the smoking ban. The main reason I think, is down to the ingenuity of the publicans. Now, a lot of bars that have space outside have beer garders or if you are really lucky, covered courtyards which are heated in the winter. These are very pleasant places, especially since you can get away from the t.v that is almost always blaring away inside. Where there’s no garden, people congregate on the street and chat to passers by; it’s very social, wet at times, but generally much nicer than spending the evening stuck inside.

Comment from luke
Time: February 24, 2008, 5:32 pm

@Andrew
The smoking law in Madrid is ridiculous basically hardly anything has changed in most bars/cafes BUT in the cafe in the new Caixa Forum (opened last week) you are not allowed to smoke!! Hoorah, now I can take my children out of the cold into a healthy atmosphere and have a pretty good coffee.

Comment from Gary
Time: February 24, 2008, 6:26 pm

@ Lluna - not so round here, thee and tha (thou) are still used colloquially, usually between young men as a badge of identity

So tha wrong, thee, sithee…

Comment from Marta
Time: February 25, 2008, 12:38 am

Queridos, hacer un francés a los franceses es una redundancia.

Comment from sPA
Time: February 26, 2008, 3:14 pm

The reason to fail the ban in smoking in bars is due to the regional goverment of PP and Esperanza Aguirre who thougt that it was by far much better to let restaurants tascas bars etc to do what they want instead of apply the law promoted by PSOE

Comment from luke
Time: February 26, 2008, 4:02 pm

@sPA
So why couldn’t the PSOE reverse this? Couldn’t cafes etc do what they wanted before the law ie. making their cafe a non-smoking cafe?

Comment from Kathleen
Time: March 2, 2008, 11:08 pm

Are there lists of non-smoking restaurants/taverns, etc. in Madrid and Barcelona? We were in Italy just three months after their ban took effect a few years ago, and it was a wonder. No smoking in any place we happened in to. I thought there would be more scofflaws.

Comment from Ben
Time: March 3, 2008, 11:11 am

Hi Kathleen, there are lists on some websites, google usually finds them OK. Spain is still horribly smokey though I’m afraid!

Comment from Ayse
Time: April 15, 2008, 8:19 am

I was in Rome in February and these are some of the differences I noticed in a 3-day trip - so all is very superficial of course; it is not easy to get the true feeling of a culture in a very short time:

1. Most people, especially police, in Rome could communicate in English (which is rare in most parts of Spain, even in the big cities).

2. Roman police seemed much more approachable and friendly than the Spanish.

3. Food is more interesting in Spain - maybe it is more original for us because we find Italian food in USA. However, pizza is definitely better in Italy than in USA in my opinion. Our lasagna expert adds that lasagna in Rome is #2 among all the places she has eaten (#1 is still our friends’ Helleland’s).

4. There are way too many beggars, street vendors and muggers in Rome than in Spain. The police walks among them but they probably cannot do anything about it.

On the way back home, we met a young Italian couple, who lived in Rome. I asked if these pickpockets are problems for locals or just for the tourists. They claimed that there weren’t really as many of them and they were not a problem for Italians, only for the tourists. Interesting! So the best way to avoid pickpockets is to act like locals - although a Nikon would still be a big give away!!

5. Italians seem to be more entrepreneurial and service oriented than Spanish.

6. Food in Rome is much more expensive than Valencia (maybe even Barcelona).

7. We have not noticed as many environmentally conscious ads in Rome as we do here.

8. Cultural, artistic, and scientific genius in Rome is overwhelmingly abundant. Existing structures and works of arts from Rome’s ancient and artistic history are definitely much richer than any place I have visited so far.

9. There aren’t as many ATM machines in Rome as in Spain, so don’t be left without any cash in far off places even within city limits.

Comment from marc
Time: April 19, 2008, 8:59 pm

Pastry shops in Madrid are generally lackluster though there are several notable exceptions (Mallorca and a handful of others). Catalonia is another story as in the Basque Country. Generally, the further south one goes in Spain, the worse the pastries (dry, fried, no fruit, uninteresting). French pastry shops are almost always sublime.
The Spanish nicer than the French? Honestly, I sometimes think that people (even the British) are talking about Mexico when they cite the kindness of Spaniards. On a day to day basis, the Spanish are neither very civil nor pleasant- the absence of “thank you”, “please”, “good day”, etc… is not for nothing (all of which are ubiquitous in France and South America, by the way). The Spanish are quite rigid in their traditions and customs. Try to suggest meeting with a Spanish friend on a Saturday at noon- impossible as this would disturb lunch at two…
I have certainly never found the Spanish friendlier than the French, and certainly much less so than the British or Americans.

Comment from Adrian Elliot
Time: June 17, 2008, 10:26 pm

Smoking is a serious issue in Spain, and much worse than a casual tourist might imagine. Although it is illegal to smoke in offices, the vast majority of Spanish companies have fewer than 5 employees and the state does nothing to enforce the law in these places. My company in Madrid was founded as a Spanish company but was recently bought by the British. Smoking is prohibited but the boss smokes in his office with the door open and the atmosphere is unbearable throughout the office. There are carpets which reek and make me feel positively ill. It is frowned upon to criticise the situation so you are pretty much left to ‘put up’ or shut up.

I have been here for 8 years and would like to stay on. It is a fantastic country and I feel comfortable here except for the smoking. But health matters and I would forewarn anyone contemplating moving here since they may be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Comment from Ray
Time: June 18, 2008, 2:30 am

Did someone say pastries?
France, here I come.

(someday)