Comment from luke
Time: March 12, 2008, 3:56 pm

Thanks for that, really useful. Especially for those of us who have kids.
Don’t think it includes the non-smoking cafe in the new Caixa Forum (Paseo de Prado?).

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: March 12, 2008, 4:52 pm

May this organization grow in strength and gain political horsepower to influence Spanish legislation.

Comment from Parubin
Time: March 12, 2008, 7:38 pm

There are definately more non-smoking venues than those listed in that site.
I don´t think that webpage is very well known, not even among owners of non smoking places.

The problem with the non-smoking law passed in Spain is that it allows for the owner to choose to remain a smoking facility if the surface of the establishment is under 100 square meters.

The fact that most of places are smaller than 100 m2, makes the desicion (whether to become smoke free or not) an strategic one for the survival of the facility, thus most owners will not risk their way of earning and will continue to allow smoking.

If the law had no exception whatsoever, it would be better for owners because no one could take advantage from allowing to smoke and everyone would be in same conditions.

Moreover I know a case in which an owner of a bigger than 100 m2 bar (it was compulsory for him to become a non smoking venue) made some alterations in the inside to make it smaller and avoid the law.

That’s what happens when you make stupid exceptions to the law, trying to make everyone happy.

Comment from AndrewW
Time: March 12, 2008, 10:55 pm

Cool website! I have yet to find a pub/bar/cerveceria/disco which is smoke free here in Madrid =\

Also, I thought the legislation is as follows: Under 100m2, you have to choose. Over 100m2, you have to provide a “non-smoking area” (which we all know are a joke). I didnt think its compulsary for somewhere to be completely non-smoking or is this new legislation?

I’m from the UK, and from what I have seen, no bars have been adversely affected. Obviously there will be some places, but no places I frequent at home have been.

I would really like to see Spain come in line with the UK in terms of smoking legislation. I am NOT denying you right to smoke, but by doing so you are denying others their RIGHT to smoke-free air. By banning it in places like we have in the UK, that is not denying you right to smoke, just in places where it affects others. We’re talking about basic human rights. I dont think it’s asking to much. You can smoke all you like en su casa.

Comment from sandy
Time: March 12, 2008, 11:20 pm

Thanks for the link indeed. I checked it out already and saw a number of bars and restaurant in the greater Bilbao area. I will check them out next town I am in town to show some support, in case they need it.

Many McDonalds were listed as non-smoking. I think under the Spanish law, if the establishment has a play area for kids, it has to be non-smoking.

Comment from frank
Time: March 13, 2008, 10:51 am

“I’m from the UK, and from what I have seen, no bars have been adversely affected. Obviously there will be some places, but no places I frequent at home have been.”
This mirrors my experience as well. What gets me is that people talk as if Spanish smokers are somehow different to the rest of Europe. I think what clearly is different, is the different governments and the way they apply the law. I can remember friends being horrified when they banned smoking on aircraft (and we are talking about a 2 -3 hour flight), but now it just accepted tha nobody smokes on aircraft.

Comment from richardksa
Time: March 13, 2008, 10:55 am

Quote from Parubin: “The fact that most of places are smaller than 100 m2, makes the desicion (whether to become smoke free or not) an strategic one for the survival of the facility, thus most owners will not risk their way of earning and will continue to allow smoking.”
Which means that bar owners are giving customers what they want. A free society should try to cater to everyone and provide a choice. And a democratic society should not make the population conform but will provide for the choice of the majority. The UK and the US have stopped being democratic countries, but have become just as draconian as the worst totalitarian states.
For me, a beer or morning coffee without a cigarette is as abhorent as drinking in a smoke filled room is for you. The good news is that there are places for both of us.

Comment from Ben
Time: March 13, 2008, 11:08 am

“The good news is that there are places for both of us.” - Not for long with a bit of luck! If Spain joins other European countries where going out for a drink is now far more pleasurable…

The non-smoking section idea never works, places still stink of smoke, and no matter how much smokers argue, you cannot get away from the simple fact that they are inflicting something on other non-smokers that damages the non-smokers health. Which seems to be a question of ethics, not totalitarianism.

Comment from David
Time: March 13, 2008, 11:56 am

Not trying to be funny, but surely it’s YOU the consumer, who makes a choice to go into a smoke-filled bar. If you don’t like the smoke, then don’t go into the bar! Simple. The last thing we need is yet another nanny state in Europe telling us what we can and can’t do.

Comment from luke
Time: March 13, 2008, 1:02 pm

“Not trying to be funny, but surely it’s YOU the consumer, who makes a choice to go into a smoke-filled bar. If you don’t like the smoke, then don’t go into the bar! Simple. The last thing we need is yet another nanny state in Europe telling us what we can and can’t do.”
1. Staff are usually immigrants who don’t have much choice of where to work and have to suffer second-hand smoke.
2. Children are often brought along to these establishments by parents who don’t give them a choice.
3. The local councils give establishments licences to trade because they are supposed to serve the community. At the moment, in Madrid, the smokers are being served better than non-smokers.

In 2005 my father (a non-smoker) died of lung cancer aged 69; the specialist told him it was from second-hand smoke. My father went to smokey pubs every day. That was his choice but I wish they’d banned smoking earlier, then he’d have been able to see his grand-son.

Comment from frank
Time: March 13, 2008, 1:09 pm

“Which means that bar owners are giving customers what they want.”

They are giving 30% of the population, the smokers, what they want.

“If you don’t like the smoke, then don’t go into the bar! Simple. ”

Unfortunately, it isn’t that simple. In the larger towns, cities etc there will be choices, but in a lot of Spanish villages, there is no choice. Perhaps the reverse would be better, it’s a non smoking bar, if you don’t like it, don’t go in there.

Comment from Deano
Time: March 13, 2008, 2:15 pm

Great site.

One of my favourite restaurants in Madrid has an entire floor as the non-smoking section…

but they don’t use that floor, so it serves no purpose

Comment from Estuart
Time: March 13, 2008, 2:16 pm

Richardska,I’m with you on this subject.People have become obsessed with bans.Why is there a need to have a ban on smoking in all bars?Why can’t smokers have their own bars that allow smoking with the majority of bars to be non-smoking?Why can’t i open a smoking bar?Nobody has come up with a decent argument yet other than ‘i don’t like smoke so ban it’.Lazy and predictable.

Comment from Parubin
Time: March 13, 2008, 2:36 pm

@ Estuart :
Here’s one argument for you : It is unhealthy for the people working in that ’smoking bar’.

Also we have to realize that this ban’s main goal is to prevent future tabaquism, one of the main causes for bad quality of life for people (or even premature death) in many countries.

@ David
About the nanny state telling us what’s good or not, you are right. In a full democracy and in the information era we should be able to make our own decisions. We even have to have the right to make mistakes.
Once in a blue moon I enjoy a marijuana cigarrette. Something wrong with that?? Any difference from drinking a glass of Scotch?? Obviously not, but our nanny law-makers forbid the use of marijuana because apparently it is no good for you. So what?? French fries with ketchup are no good either.Even if it is no good I still want to be free to take a puff if I want. Who is anyone to tell me what to do with myself?

But the discussion here is not about your freedom to smoke (you remain free to smoke at home or in open spaces) it is other people’s freedom not to inhale second hand smoke what’s at stake.

Comment from sandy
Time: March 13, 2008, 2:55 pm

I second “Perhaps the reverse would be better, it’s a non smoking bar, if you don’t like it, don’t go in there.” - Frank

Like Luke, my father also died of lung cancer when he was 64.

I believe Spanish in general are more tolerant towards smoking, thus the law. I have never heard anyone in Spain answering “Yes, I do indeed”when asked “do you mind if I smoke”.

Comment from richardksa
Time: March 16, 2008, 11:45 am

@Parubin: “Here’s one argument for you : It is unhealthy for the people working in that ’smoking bar”.
I have spent a lifetime working in some of the most inhospitable and dangerous working environments you can think of. It was my choice. It is theirs. Nuff said.

Comment from Edith
Time: March 16, 2008, 5:57 pm

@ Richardska

This is not entirely true. When you are on the dole, you are supposed to accept any kind of job which comes your way, or you may lose your unemployment benefits. So it’s not all about free choice.

Comment from Ben
Time: March 16, 2008, 6:41 pm

Funny how smokers always think it is their right to make others unhealthy too.

Anyway, this is an argument that clearly each side is not going to let the other win.

All I can say is thank god I gave up smoking after meddling with it for just a couple of years. It really makes me genuinely sad to see smokers unable to escape something that is only destined to make Tobacco giants rich, and them potentially terminally ill quicker. I admit to being one of those annoying ex-smokers who now abhors smoking.

Comment from frank
Time: March 16, 2008, 8:55 pm

I have spent a lifetime working in some of the most inhospitable and dangerous working environments you can think of. It was my choice. It is theirs. Nuff said.

For which you get very well paid. Not everyone is as clever as you, some people are destined to work in menial jobs, that is as much as they can ever aspire to. Given that is a crap job, with crap wages, I think that´s bad enough, without insisting they work in a smoke filled room, just so as you can enjoy your selfish pleasures.

Comment from sandy
Time: March 25, 2008, 2:51 pm

I have just returned from Bilbao. We went to El Huevo Frito in Bilbao, which according to my experience and verified on nofumadores.org, it is supposed to be “100% libre de humos”. But not so anymor. There was a sign stating smoking is allowed. Although no one was smoking when we went there, there were cigarette butts on the floor. I wonder what happened.