Comment from richardksa
Time: May 13, 2008, 11:57 am

I live very close to the Las Ventas Bullring and judging by the crowds leaving the place last Friday evening the corrida has lost none of its popularity. I haven’t been there myself, but a friend keeps threatening to take me. I don’t think the actual slaughter of the bull would shock me. I have seen worse in my travels. But I would like to see just how much the spectators actually enjoy and understand the spectacle, or has it became just “something to do” this month.
There were many young children in the crowds. Will their generation prolong this “sport”? Or will they lose interest as they stop going with their parents?
Many Spaniards I talk to about it say they have no interest, but only a few condemn it as barbaric.

Comment from Simon
Time: May 13, 2008, 12:08 pm

I think there are probably still a few generations left for bull-fighting. It’s appeal is fading fading among the (urban?) young as you say, but there are still quite a number of youngsters, who buy into the macho tradition of la faena. You only have to see the thousands of young people running with the bulls or packing the plaza over the fiesta weekends in my village to see that this tradition remains the highlight of the year for many people.

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 12:24 pm

They are a bunch of Fairy’s prancing around in their tight trousers , fighting a bull who has already been subjected to torture. Not very ” Macho ” at all. I think Spain needs a lots of looking into in the treatment of animals. In a article today in El Pais , the religious journey of Romeria De Ricio ended in the death of 21 animals , mainly being horses from thirst etc.
What a sacrifice for their wonderful heritage.
Conclusion. Spain needs education on animal rights

Comment from Simon
Time: May 13, 2008, 12:39 pm

I couldn’t agree more, Pescador. I see Bullfighting as a symptom (and possibly a driver) of a much wider problem with attitudes to animals in Spain, whether the Rocio example you cite, disposable hunting and racing dogs, disreputable “pet farms” who feed the pet shops with puppies and toothless or non-existant punishments for animal cruelty cases. But we may be straying away from the original question. Given that the property down-turn will deprive many ayuntamientos of construction-based income, I wonder whether budgets for fiestas will be pinched, thereby removing the subsidy. I doubt it, though. There seems to be an unwritten rule in the constitution of most local councils here that the mayor can slash any service he likes, but the village fiestas have to be bigger and more impressive than the neighbouring village at any cost.

Comment from gary
Time: May 13, 2008, 12:41 pm

Well, soypescador, theres the proverbial red rag and the cue for hatemail….

If you are a fisherman you would presumably think it was okay to hire a crane and entice the bull to swallow the hook before hoisting it, still kicking and struggling, on to the street outside the bullring before putting it back in so that somebody else could use his crane to do the same thing?

Comment from Mrmark
Time: May 13, 2008, 12:54 pm

I can understand the argument against la corrida based on “how can you get enjoyment from seeing an animal killed” (although there is a lot more to it than that, as Hemingway, Welles or even Goya would have told you). I do find it strange that people like to look down their noses at the Spanish (and other countries) and their supposed lack of animal rights, who come from countries where millions of chickens are battery bred, and where horses die in big events like the Grand National. Projection anyone? As for how long it will continue - I suspect there will always be an element in each generation (and this includes intellectuals) who participate. End of the day it’s for the Spanish themselves to decide on this. I don’t think lectures from “superior” *Iraq-bombing Brits or Americans will bring the day of abolition any closer.

* I mention this as I suspect many in Spain will take this line if lectured to. It’s not something I personally believe is valid, but that’s a whole other issue.

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 12:58 pm

@ Gary
Not sporting enough , my fish have a chance.
Catch and release. Take a look at a fishing port one day when the boats are returning from a days catch you would be horrified. This does not only account for Spain (who are the biggest culprits ) but to the rest of the fishing world. PS. No short supply of cranes in Spain but bulls are becoming extinct !!

Comment from Bill
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:07 pm

If it is indeed losing money, then I think Spanish bullfighting may have to adapt in order to bring more crowds in. Maybe they will end up not killing the bull - something more along the lines of the Portuguese bullfights. In fact it amazes me why nobody has tried this - you might get extra people going along just to support the fact that the animal is not killed - and it is cheaper: you get to re-use the bull!

It’s also worth remembering that bullfighting is also popular in South America as well as Southern France (e.g. Arles where they use an genuine roman theatre to stage the fights). There is a pretty big global market for it at the moment.

Comment from Parubin
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:11 pm

Before I start, I’ll let you have a glance at my background, just to prevent some preconceveid clichés :
1) I’m Spanish 2) I’m young 3) I’m urban
4) I’m not the macho-type
5) I’ve lived in more than one country outside Spain (Ireland and the US).
6) I travel quite often all over the world both for work matters but mainly for leisure, and I’m well aware of most of what’s going on outside my homeland.
7) I wouldn´t go as far as to consider myself ‘an intelectual’ nonetheless I’d say I’m well above the average (sorry for being so emphatic, pretentious and vain) in cultural terms.

What I try to say is that I’m no barbaric ignorant, who knows nothing of the world except for his little rural village, and who has no other pleasures or interests in this world than the blood-thirsty need of the slaughter of an innocent animal.

Having said this, my opinion is :
1) I like bullfights. The emotion I feel in a good ‘corrida’ is something difficult to explain. It just gives me goose bumps, it makes me both happy and anxious, sometimes it can even wet my eyes. This is something that only happens to some kind of people who can appreciate a sublime form of art when confronted to it.
2) Of course I completely understand, and respect the sickness felt by people not interested in the fights, who, in this case, are only left with the gory side and the brutality of the show.
3) I know first hand I’m not a rare case of bullfighting-lover among people of my social spectrum.
4) I don´t think it is necessary for bullfighting to have enormous popularity figures. The show could still be profitable with just the best 20 or 30 festivals (between 200 and 300 corridas per year in Spain).
5) San Isidro Bullfighting Feria (in Madrid) it is not decisevely financed by the Administration. I suppose it recieves some public funding (just like any other event of public interest) but it could go well off without these funds. In fact it is quite difficult to get tickets, as they are often sold in advance, and I’m sure the manager could raise the prices (people will happily pay between 50 and well more than a 100 euros to see José Tomás, and he would fill whichever ring he showed up to).
6) I know ‘bullfighting makes Spain look bad’, but fortunately, not everything in this world is about marketing, or looking good, or doing what others expect you to do.
7) I’m sure there will be more pressure against bullfighting both from within Spain as well as from the outside. This could lead to radicalism in the show, from both sides.
In the foreable future, I don´t see bullfighting dissapearing or eveng losing all its interest among younger urban generations. Maybe 72% of Spaniards are not interested, that’s fine. 40% are not interested in fútbol and it is obviously our national passion.
9) I’m completely aware too about the blunt brutality towards the animal, but I like to think that the bull dies in such way for a reason. I know this is a rather romantic and irrational view of such controversial topic (opposers to bullfight could say that it is even a senseless, stupid, unjustified argument to defend this barbaric slaughter, and I’d have to agree with them).
10) I don´t think there is future grounds for a consensus between those who understand the nobility and purity of the fight and those who don´t.

Bullfighting neccesarily implies killing a bull in such manner, and this is absolutely incompatible with animal rights. Because I realize this incompatibility I do not think there is grounds for discussion. Either you like it, or you don´t. That’s it.

Comment from Stephen
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:14 pm

It all seems pretty cowardly to me. If bullfighting was an even contest then it would be banned. The bulls I’ve seen on TVE often don’t seem to want to fight much. I remember seeing a British TV prog years ago that alleged the bulls were doped and had their horns weakened in some way. Any truth in that?

Those guys in America who ride the bulls really are brave. Or complete idiots!

Comment from Bill
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:18 pm

@MrMark - I take a similar line with discussions on the morality of bullfighting. A fighting bull has a pretty good life (not far off that of a racehorse) and probably a lot better than most of the bulls that end up in the hamburgers, etc that are avidly consumed by many of the opponents of bullfighting who I have met.

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:19 pm

Ah , Bill
Good idea
That would be the same as catch and release. South America and Southern France are all very closely tied to Spain , that is not very global. Quite often I veiw these magnificient animals on my walks through the lovely Spanish country side , grazing in their fields. Why not leave them there , people could veiw them in the purest form not half tortured to death. As for the economic side of things I think they make enough money out of other sports in Spain and other countries.

Comment from Tom C.
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:23 pm

I enjoy watching the bullfights, and I will miss them when they stop having them. For the bulls it is a Quicker and more humane death than in the slaughter houses here in the US.

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:32 pm

I think it is also a question of supply and demand ! As long as there is a demand for bullfighting there will be no end. This then lies in the hands of those that attend bullfighting. As long as there is big money involved it is likely to carry on for years on end.

Comment from Andrew
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:49 pm

Ben, could you stop posting these ridiculous hate-comment provoking predictable posts and find something interest about Spain to write about.

Thanks.

Comment from Ben
Time: May 13, 2008, 1:55 pm

Hi Andrew, thanks for your thoughtful comment. I knew perfectly well that this would be a hot topic of debate, but in no way did I write anything provocative, or intend to incite hate. This is a fascinating topic, that could easily be ignored. But is seems to me that the 15 comments so far show that people are interested in expressing an opinion about it, therefore it was worth bringing up in response to an interesting article in the Guardian.

Also, my main question was ‘how long has bullfighting got?’ - a pretty innocent question if you ask me, directly based on the article. Why not share your thoughts on that Andrew?

Anyway, you suggest I “find something interesting about Spain to write about” - sorry this doesn’t fit your criteria, any ideas for things that would?

Comment from Urgellenk
Time: May 13, 2008, 2:04 pm

The banning of bullfighting is not an issue right now and even if most of the citizens of Spain abhor of those brutal practices, they will do very little to fight against them for the sake of the almighty “traditions”. Moreover, even the most timid comments against bullfighting from high level officials arouse irate reactions from the right-wing sectors, who present them as an attack to the national identity. So efficiently and deeply has bullfighting been engraved in the spanishness under decades of Franco regime (and even before).

Bullfighting will continue to thrive for years, even if it ceases to be a lucrative business. After all, being called “torero” seems to be still an honour in Spain (people will cheerfully shout that at anyone who stands out in no matter what field); The most important ferias continue to be a must-be-seen place for the so-called beautiful people (even the royal family attends bullfighting shows) and I do not really see that the intellectual classes distance themselves from that horror. Rather the opposite, bullfighting seems to arouse romantic emotions even among the most liberal of the thinkers and praising that sport (I love the way English speakers refer to this practice) seems to equate having an appreciation for arts that puts them above the average of the mortals who only see a blood bath in it.

There are signs of hope, though. In several regions, bullfighting is absolutely marginal and even non-existing. Things evolve at a tremendous pace in Spain - who would have believed just ten years ago that Spain would be one of the pioneer countries in legalising gay marriage? – and I am confident that this stiff ritual that just masks plain brutality is bound to disappear in a not so distant future.

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 2:19 pm

@ Ben

Ben I admire your marketing skills for if you did not entice a bit of ” Lets have a go ” you would lose some interest.
Keep up the good work
” Espana Va bien “

Comment from Graeme
Time: May 13, 2008, 2:45 pm

I think it’s interesting that there are now protests from Spanish people over bullfighting, I passed one in Barcelona the other week - and there was another in Madrid when the bullring was invaded by protestors. I admit that I don’t really care that much about its existence but some of the arguments used to defend it are too ridculous, the conservation one in particular. I seem to remember foxhunters using that one in the UK too. Apparently someone commented on the protestors in Madrid that their protest wasn’t valid because they would all be in favour of abortion!

@ Parubin

I understand much of what you say but don’t forget that bullfighting doesn’t necessarily imply the death of the bull. There are countries that have bullfighting without killing the animal. One of the worst things of the whole spectacle is seeing the matador miss with the sword thrust that is supposed to kill the bull.

Viva la Liga.

Comment from Simon
Time: May 13, 2008, 3:08 pm

@Parubin.
Well Said. You seem to have encapsulated the ambivalence (or fence-sitting) I feel for bullfighting. I had to walk out of my first corrida for the pain it caused my English sensitivities. Since then I have been able to appreciate more of the art involved, despite my innate distaste for the treatment of the animal.

I’m going to be harangued for making the clumsy comparison, but here goes, in the same way I abhor violence, I can appreciate a good boxing match.

The only argument I’ve seen on here that falls flat on its face goes to pescador…
…grazing in their fields. Why not leave them there , people could veiw them in the purest form not half tortured to death.

If it were not for the corrida you would not see any bulls in the fields. No one would spend 5 years rearing and maintaining herds of 500KG chunks of charging muscle if it were not for the final trip to Las Ventas.

As the original article says… Bullfighting is essentially an updated Roman gladiatorial contest that has endured for over 2500 years, so back to my original comment, it probably has a generation or two left in it yet.

Comment from Mistress
Time: May 13, 2008, 3:15 pm

Ben as you wrote there´s a lot of financial interest behind all the bullfighting ‘industry’ that makes very difficult for the goverment to ban this cueltry.
Few years ago the goverment changed the animal rights law, making a ‘criminal offence’ to cause pain or abandon an animal. But what happens to the bullfighting or all the ‘vaquillas’ parties, the running of the bulls and so on?, It´s really hypocrite and a very difficult issue to handle for a goverment,Why did they ban the dog and cock fights and not the bulls?, Is only the tradition or the financial face of all of this? but if the brits did it with the fox hunting, why not us?? Maybe we really need a people´s movement to make this happen. Is true that most of the spaniards don´t like bulls but sadly few of us make something to make this change.

Comment from bill
Time: May 13, 2008, 3:28 pm

@soy pescador

I think that having an established market in half the inhabited continents on the planet is enough to count as being global. BTW I’m counting North America (e.g. Mexico), South America and Europe as the continents where a market for bullfighting definitely exists. I also remember reading somewhere that bullfights were being shown on Chinese television, and were becoming popular, though I’m not sure to what extent this is true.

Comment from Jonk
Time: May 13, 2008, 4:02 pm

Bullfighting is something I haven’t seen being in Australia but it does interest me a lot in terms of how it represents Spanish history and culture.

It’s interesting how some people hide behind the internet to be like they are. And Ben’s patience is astounding sometimes.

I just had a thought after reading people associate bulls with the right wing politics. Is it a bit like the NRA in the United States?

Comment from Urgellenk
Time: May 13, 2008, 4:40 pm

Jonk:

There are some liberals (leftists) in Spain who are notorious for being corrida aficionados. But bullfighting is indeed clearly linked with right-wing political positions, who like to present this sport as an intrinsic part of the Spanish soul (it is not).

The lobbying activities of the corrida supporters are much more subtile than those of the NRA. Mainly because so far the issue triggers little interest amongst the population and only people directly involved in animal treatment NGOs have cared to voice out their opposition to this barbaric tradition.

AFAIK, none of the major political parties in the Spanish Parliament advocates publicly for a ban on bullfighting. The exception are just some of the nationalist parties from Catalonia, Galicia or the Canary Islands, as bullfighting is not traditional in those regions.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 13, 2008, 5:20 pm

@ Urgellenk,

You just raised a very interesting point there. For some intuitive reason, I have always associated bullfights with Franco-ism: ‘pan y circo’ for the masses to keep them happy, isn’t that what it’s all about? Why did Franco outlaw ancient Spanish traditions like carnival while promoting bullfights as an ‘art form’? Surely, this kind of barbaric blood sport appealed to the mind-set of his political followers.

Comment from bill
Time: May 13, 2008, 5:30 pm

@Urgellenk - none of the main political parties in the UK were actively opposed to foxhunting either. It only got banned because a labour backbencher was allowed to propose a bill under unusual circumstances (much to Blair’s annoyance).

BTW outside North America the word “liberal” does not mean “leftist”. In terms of economic policy, in the europe at least, liberalism is in fact more associated with the right (e.g. people like Thatcher and Reagan). I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but it’s worth pointing out as it does cause confusion.

Comment from Perro Callejero
Time: May 13, 2008, 5:56 pm

I am torn on the issue, seeing both the brutality of the practice as well as the beauty. I have only attended one bullfight before, but to be quite honest, I rather enjoyed it. As one of the previous posters stated, there’s something about a corrida that is hard to put into words…a sort of infectious energy that is uniquely special.

I would be sad to see the corridas go. I do believe they’ll probably fade out eventually, but I think it will either not be in my lifetime, or be at the very end. As the article states, corridas=jobs and with the employment situation in Spain, it would be a tough pill to swallow to eliminate such an industry anytime soon. Not to mention the fact that there ARE Spaniards who enjoy seeing the corridas. There may be a growing number against them or indifferent to them, but one still can’t ignore the driving force behind the corridas: money, and that money comes from supporters, like it or not.

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 6:16 pm

@simon

I have walked through the countryside in England and France and encountered Bulls , maybe not 500kgs , but they are BULLS ! A question for you ” How are baby bulls made ?They are not all destined for the corridas.

Comment from Urgellenk
Time: May 13, 2008, 6:18 pm

Edith:

Bullfighting was extremely popular before Franco arrived. I do not have much knowledge of blood sports, but I have read the golden era of “tauromaquia” was during the early 20th century with Belmonte and Joselito. It was equally popular among the two contenders in the civil war (Hemingway, for instance, was fascinated by bullfighting and he supported the Republic).

The Franco regime was known for its exacerbated nationalism and for the appropriation of the national symbols, including the so-labelled “fiesta nacional”. Bullfighting was certainly promoted and instrumentalised by Franco but somehow managed to survive the regime, yet retaining that certain outmoded flair of señoritos repeinados, fan-toting ladies, bota, boina y bocata de chorizo, and many other clichés that most Spaniards would associate with long gone times. Yet, many intellectuals and wannabes still pretend to feel seduced by what they call art, in a vain attempt to feel superior or different to the mainstream feelings of the present Spanish society.

The carnival is a totally different matter, as it was prohibited because the catholic church, one of the pillars of the regime, deemed it was a pagan festival that did not suit the catholic moral.

Comment from Urgellenk
Time: May 13, 2008, 6:25 pm

bill,

In the Spanish parliamentary system party discipline is the rule. It is not imaginable that a single MP propose a bill to ban bullfighting. And if someone did, it would never be passed in the present circumstances.

Both the PSOE and the PP have used all their influence to avoid that the issue gets even discussed (not even condemened) at the European Parliament level.

Comment from frank
Time: May 13, 2008, 6:29 pm

“They are a bunch of Fairy’s prancing around in their tight trousers ”
“It all seems pretty cowardly to me.”

So you two would have no problems going in and facing a fighting bull, dressed in tights, and with only a cape to defend yourself? I´m neither strongly for nor against the bullfight, but I feel that anyone that does step into that ring, has much bigger cojones than some of the contributors here. Not even €450,00 would tempt me in there! For me, especially when compared with the modern day primadona footballers, (a bunch of Fairy’s prancing around, comes to mind) the toreros are good value for money.

Comment from frank
Time: May 13, 2008, 6:34 pm

“I have walked through the countryside in England and France and encountered Bulls , maybe not 500kgs , but they are BULLS ! ”

Indeed they are! But they are prime breeding stock of a breed of bull that produces a highly desirable meat product. Unfortunately the Spanish fighting bull is good for fighting, but not much else. Whatever your stance on bullfighting, I think it is generally agreed that the future of the Spanish fighting bull would be very much in doubt without the corrida.

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 6:44 pm

@Frank

I have surfed some 20ft plus waves along with some of the top big Wave surfers in the world.
Now that takes Cojones. Purely mother nature and yourself. I have no doubt it must be pretty scary having a 500kg bull baring down on you . But do remember that this bull has been subjected to who knows what before this great show.

Comment from Parubin
Time: May 13, 2008, 6:59 pm

@ Edith
Urgellenk said :
“Bullfighting was extremely popular before Franco arrived. I do not have much knowledge of blood sports, but I have read the golden era of “tauromaquia” was during the early 20th century with Belmonte and Joselito. It was equally popular among the two contenders in the civil war (Hemingway, for instance, was fascinated by bullfighting and he supported the Republic).”

That is absolutely correct. There is not a link between bullfighting and left or right wing politics whatsoever. You may find people for and against it in between voters of both PSOE (left) or in PP (right) at simmilar porcentages.

You can find prominent bullfighting enthusiats among the liberal (=leftist) elites. Pablo Picasso (notable communist exiliated from Spain) comes to mind. He was a great bullfighting fan as it is shown in many of his paintings.

In fact the popularity of bullfighting in places such as southern France and Mexico was in part promoted by the influence of thousands of leftists Spaniards exiled after the republican side had lost the Spanish civil war.

All in all, I’d say there isn´t nowadayas or hasn´t been in the past a clear straightforward connection between fans or detractors and political views.

As for the two main parties in Spain (PSOE and PP, left and right) the issue of the possible ban on bullfighting is not in their agendas and it is not likely to be in the near future.

Comment from bill
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:09 pm

If bullfighting were banned, I wouldn’t have a problem with the Spanish fighting bull going extinct. I don’t see why resources should be set aside for protecting them if they cease to produce anything of value.

OK you could in theory just leave them to graze in their fields (as Soy Pescador seems to suggest), but come the harsh Spanish winter, without any hay set aside, they’d probably meet a death more grizzly than what they’d have met in the bullring anyway.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:14 pm

@ Parubin and Urgellenk,

I stand corrected, you’re right.

@ Soy Pescador,

Hats off to the surfers in South Africa. Yesterday I saw a documentary on the National Geographic Channel about a guy who was attacked by TWO great white sharks while riding the waves. Miraculously, he only sustained some minor injuries on his hand while his surf board was almost bitten in half. Cojones indeed! * thumbs up*

Comment from Ben
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:14 pm

@Bill and @others, Apparently today’s fighting bull is a descendant of another much larger and fiercer creature that was originally used in the ring. This animal was so dangerous in the ring however, that eventually they ceased to breed it and it ceased to exist. So in that sense they’ve done it before, they could do it again.

I think I got that info from a really great book called On Bullfighting by A.L. Kennedy.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:16 pm

@ Bill,

How about protecting them as a heirloom species?

Comment from John Ross
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:35 pm

“Steers comprise the majority of cattle fattened for slaughter. They are slaughtered when about two and a half years old after having been fattened for six months or thereabouts on lowland pastures.”

For those whose first language is not English, a “steer” (American English) or “bullock” (British English) is a castrated bull.

I won’t say much about the hellishness of slaughterhouses, I’m sure you all have an idea. The Judas goat is a trained animal which sheep or cattle will follow into the slaughterhouse to their doom, in spite of the terror the blood and the smell and everything else about it fills them with. No, slaughter isn’t nice, and is no less horrible because it occurs out of sight, on the contrary - bullfighters at least get booed if the crowd considers the animal is being caused unnecessary suffering. A slaughterhouse worker who doesn’t stun the animals properly isn’t likely even to be reprimanded. And if are of a nervous disposition, don’t look up “captive bolt pistol.”

The point I want to make is that humans treat beef cattle and other farm animals far less humanely than they do fighting bulls, which may be killed in the ring but are at least treated with respect during the rest of their lifetime. There are valid arguments against bullfighting as a spectacle - cruelty is not one of them.

And by the way, the Portuguese bullfight is not much better - the bull is slaughtered after the event, out of view, it has to be. Once “toreado,” a bull is impossible to “lidear” again.

Comment from frank
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:37 pm

“I have surfed some 20ft plus waves along with some of the top big Wave surfers in the world.”

Sorry, but as regards danger, I see no comparison between surfing and bullfighting. If I had to do one, no prizes for guessing which one I’d choose! Thanks to modern medicine, not may now die in the ring, but they suffer some terrible cornadas, and normally exactly where you would not want it to happen!

Comment from John Ross
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:44 pm

The association of bullfighting with the right wing comes from Franco’s dictatorship. His equivalent of “bread and circuses” was “a job for life, football and bullfighting.” Whenever a protest or strike was planned, or anything that people might want to protest against (like a rigged election), the regime made sure there was a bullfight to go to and Real Madrid on the telly. Apart from that, bullfighting has always been more associated with left than right-wing, it is considered an art form and until recently it was obligatory for anyone who fancied himself as remotely Bohemian to be au fait with bullfighting. In the days when great hotels like the Palace in Madrid didn’t accept actors as guests because they were too disreputable, they didn’t accept bullfighters, either, they were like rock stars.

Comment from Enrique
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:49 pm

I think Spain’s “live and let live” attitude in the post-Franco era is beginning to erode as more recent generations have less familiarity with oppression and/or culpable memories of human suffering and privation. Bullfighting—which waves a red flag at anyone who hasn’t got enough human death and indignity to bother about—seems to be catching the brunt of this new wave of moralizing. The torture and killing of an animal is horrible, but much better to do it prima facia, confronting an audience who has to admit they’re being entertained by death, than to hide it behind industrial white-washing so that children think meat comes from a supermarket and not from an animal. I don’t think Spain in particular has a problem reminding people where their meat comes from—most local markets have sheep heads, whole chickens, and plenty of exciting casqueria to ogle, not to mention you always know someone who will invite you to their town’s matanza in the fall!—and I think bullfighting is one of the reasons. Although I recognize the revulsion of bullfighting, I also appreciate its role it plays in the construction of Spanish culture. If nothing else, it’s quite photogenic… http://www.flickr.com/photos/ehuelga/184688460/ ).

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 13, 2008, 7:49 pm

Why not put two gladiator men or woman back in the arena , that would be more fun !
I agree with Edith save the Spanish bull as a heirloom species.

Comment from John Ross
Time: May 13, 2008, 8:04 pm

But to answer the question. Bullfighting is not in decline, on the contrary, it is expanding. Perhaps fewer people go to bullfights in Spain than ten years ago, but I doubt it. Madrid now has two bull rings, though it has made do nicely with one for decades, and my understanding is that there are far more bullfights a year than in the sixties, say - there are more “plazas de segunda,” second-rank bullrings, and more festivals. And bullfighting is very much on the increase in France and Japan, and (I believe, I have no evidence) throughout Central and South America. So I can’t see it disappearing any time soon.

Comment from Tom
Time: May 14, 2008, 10:18 am

Much as I loathe it, I suspect that bullfighting will be here for quite some time. Looking at the pathetic failure of Barcelona City Council to actually enforce the animal-cruelty ban they passed, as well as the amusingly piecemeal way the smoking ban has been enacted: this is still not a country where unwelcome change is suffered to occur.

In some ways, that’s a good thing… I just wish it applied to the siesta and not the corrida.

Comment from gary
Time: May 14, 2008, 12:14 pm

@ soypescador

Okay your fish do have a chance, so does the fox and the hare the pheasant, etc. Oh, and sometimes the bull gets to inflict a good bit of damage before it dies. Have you been hospitalised by a carp ot a perch recently?

Should inflicting pain on any animal in the name of sport be avoided?

(sorry - forgot - fish dont feel pain, my son told me that when he was in to fishing)

I am clearly playing devils advocate and have no real strong feeling that any of these should be banned, bullfighting is easy for non spaniards to be holier than thou about cos we dont have it in our culture, nor the matanza - but killing a pig in the street is okay with the brits, it even featured in a slightly condescending programme about spanish cookery on channel 4 recently. Probably battery farming popular in Britain is more cruel than bullfighting…

Comment from soy pescador
Time: May 14, 2008, 12:31 pm

@ gary

Fair play , but do catch and release fishing enthusiasts stick hooks and knives into the fish before they catch them. We also fish with very light tackle and barbless hooks. (ask your son maybe he can educate you on this) . Watching a bulls entering the ring bleeding and half tortured is fun ? Think again !!

Comment from Edith
Time: May 14, 2008, 5:30 pm

@ Enrique

RE ‘Bullfighting—which waves a red flag at anyone who hasn’t got enough human death and indignity to bother about’

In my opinion, this argument is totally spurious. People who care about animal rights are not necessarily indifferent to human rights, and vice versa. I have worked for Amnesty International’s Dutch section in Amsterdam, and many of my co-workers were also sympathetic to animal welfare.
As far as slaughterhouses etc. are concerned: everyone know these are horrible places. But why should their existence justify bullfights, or vice versa for that matter?

Comment from John Ross
Time: May 14, 2008, 6:23 pm

I don’t think there are really any heirloom species of animals, not yet; the term is normally applied to plants, as far as I know. I’m prepared to be wrong about this, though.

Edith, for the moment, the bullfight exists, and the onus is on its opponents to demonstrate that there are convincing arguments for its prohibition, not the other way round. And you are quite right, the fact that livestock is treated with cruelty in, e.g., slaughterhouses is not a justification for bullfights. It is only an example of how people are much more cruel to animals in other contexts than they are in the bullring. And I accept that the relative lack of cruelty of the bullfight is not a justification for it, but it does mean cruelty is not an argument for banning it.

Let’s be anthropomorphic for a minute (if bullfight opponents can be anthropomorphic as they are when they imagine the bull’s suffering, I don’t see why the rest of us can’t be as well). Imagine a mummy cow giving birth to a fine male calf. Which would she prefer, for him to be treated as cattle, have his balls cut off, live some 30 months mostly eating artificial feed made from fishmeal (and I could go on, here) and end his life miserably, or lve to a ripe old 4 or 5 years in semi-wild conditions and die in a bullring?

Comment from bill
Time: May 14, 2008, 7:03 pm

@Edith - If most people are aware that slaughterhouses are horrible places, and are sympathetic to animal welfare, then why do the majority of people still buy battery produced products?

I think Enrique’s point is simply that it is more honest of people to accept that they take pleasure from an activity such as bullfighting, where the animal’s suffering takes place right in front of them, than it is to take pleasure from consuming battery produced products, which try to conceal the animal’s suffering.

Comment from Tom
Time: May 14, 2008, 7:08 pm

@ John Ross - “It is only an example of how people are much more cruel to animals in other contexts than they are in the bullring. ” - I’m not sure that this is held up by the evidence. The point is that for little more than the spectator’s titillation, creatures are tortured until they cough up blood and die. I’m not sure that the same torture takes place in slaughterhouses; indeed, the death is usually much swifter, for economic reasons.

As to the onus being on the opponents rather than the proponents, I’m not with you there either. What is the defence that is most frequently offered for the corrida? That it is a sport. But can a sport with a certain outcome (the death of one of the protagonists) really be called a sport? Perhaps a proponent would use the ‘art/culture’ argument. But while the corrida is stylized in a crudely balletic sense, it would be difficult to describe it as ballet. Does bullfighting enrich our understanding of the world, our community or ourselves? Does Really give much more to Spanish culture than endless discussions of matadors’ girlfriends on daytime TV?

I think that the supporters of bullfighting do have to state their case because we’ve already gone over the arguments against it.

As to the ‘it’s a better life than being grown for beef’ argument, that’s not related to the debate. Straw man!

Comment from bill
Time: May 14, 2008, 7:52 pm

@Tom - I think John Ross as taking the life of the bull as a whole, rather than the last half hour. The animal probably does suffer less in a slaughter house, but perhaps it has suffered more during its entire life so that it can be efficiently offered up on a plate, for economic reasons.

Also, the corrida is not regarded as a sport - and most do enjoy it as an art form - they have a right to their opinion.

I agree that there is a case against bullfighting. However I also think that you have to be a vegetarian or at least extremely careful about the origins of the animal products you consume before you can make that case, otherwise I think it is hypocritical.

Comment from John Ross
Time: May 14, 2008, 9:16 pm

The idea that the bullfight is a sport comes from misinterpretation by English speakers and a misleading translation. There is nothing in any Spanish term related with bull “fighting” to suggest that it could be considered a sport. Not “corrida de toros,” not “toreador,” not “la lidia,” not “tauromáquia.” Bullfighting is absolutely not a sport. There is nothing competitive about it. The bull is not supposed to have a chance of winning.

Instead, the bullfight is a ritual, a representation, the bull being dominated, progressively brought down, by the man. It happens to end in the death of the animal. In the Spanish version, it must end in the death of the bull, if it doesn’t, there is no sense to the whole thing. You may, if you wish, find the idea of a ritual killing as a spectacle just as unpleasant as if it were a sport, but it is quite impossible that you have ever heard a defender of the bullfight using it’s sporting side as an argument. It hasn’t got a sporting side.

I had to look up “straw man” to find out what I was being accused of. Fortunately Wikipedia (of course, how did we live without it?) told me that “A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.” I am not misrepresenting any opinion, I am presenting my own. I do find it relevant that it is a better life than being grown for beef, and it will take more persuasion than a false accusation of debating trickery to change that.

As you say, you have already gone over the arguments against bullfighting, but that wasn’t the issue, though I’m sure it was the reaction Ben was hoping to provoke. The question posed was “How long did we give bullfighting?” And my answer, which may be wrong, of course, but is, at least, an informed answer, is “A long time, yet.”

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: May 15, 2008, 4:58 am

I give bullfighting until there is no more revenue generated from it.

Comment from canarygirl
Time: May 15, 2008, 9:00 am

Hi Ben, this is my first time to your site, and I like what I’ve seen. Your question of how long bullfighting’s got is indeed an interesting one…here on Grand Canary, we have no bullfighting rings, and the whole culture of bullfighting resides mainly in “Hola” and “OK” (the magazines). I have never been to a fight, and can’t say that I would go…I don’t think I could take it. The actual “dancing” that the matador does is beautiful…if only they didn’t have to stab and kill the animal. Of course, that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn’t it? lol

Comment from Ben
Time: May 15, 2008, 9:39 am

Hi Canarygirl, interesting that there is no bullfighting on the island. Lots of nice food on your site by the way!

Comment from Parubin
Time: May 15, 2008, 10:48 am

I live in Gran Canaria too, though I was born and raised in mainland Spain. The Canary Island is the only region in Spain in which bullfighting has never been part of its culture. In fact, bullfighting is banned in the Canaries (and it isn´t in any other region of Spain). Here, there is not any bit of popular support for the ‘Fiesta’.

It has said before that bullfights were not big in Catalonia. Definately, bullfighting seems bigger in Valencia, Madrid, Castilla, Basque Country, Navarra, Andalucia, Extremadura… and even in places like Nimes, Arles, Breziers (in France). But still it has its own fair share of support in Barcelona.

Living legent José Tomás (arguably the best matador of today, who represents the purity, exquisite style and technique, bravery and disdain for his own life) made a glorious comeback last year after a five year retirement, which caused the biggest of the expectations in the world of ‘tauromaquia’ and and he chose the ring of Barcelona to do so. Of course all tickets were sold in few minutes in Barcelona.

As for defining ‘bullfighting’, it is certainly not a sport nor a competition. In Spain nobody refers to it as a ‘deporte’ or as a ‘competición’. It is called ‘La Fiesta’, or ‘La Feria’ (=a series of daily ‘corridas’ usually one week long -San Isidro Feria in Madrid is 3 weeks long- that take place once a year -twice at the most in some big bull cities-) ‘los toros’, and the whole of everything that surrounds it, ‘la tauromaquia’.

Comment from Tom
Time: May 15, 2008, 3:48 pm

John - don’t place too much trust in Wikipedia! The definition they provide is one from syllogistic logic which is a little more precise than the normal usage (which basically consists of setting up a false argument which could easily be defeated, thus calling into question the opposing position). But that’s irrelevant. As to whether or not something is art, this is generally decided not by the creator but by informed observers and critics, who understand the conventions of what ‘art’ is.

As to your answer to the question, I too had already come to that conclusion. I was merely disagreeing with everything else you said.

Comment from Maria S.
Time: May 17, 2008, 11:36 pm

Tom is right by saying “As to whether or not something is art, this is generally decided not by the creator but by informed observers and critics…”
This is getting a bit technical here, but anybody who knows something about the Theory of Knowledge (TOK), knows there are several viewpoints an art critic can take:

the romantic view of art
the subjective view
the objective view of art
the Semiotic view of art
the random view of art.
the dialectical view of art
etc.

What the Spanish might call “art”, could be “torture” to others.
Not my opinion. I have not been to a bull fight yet.

Comment from Bill
Time: May 18, 2008, 11:28 am

@Tom,@Maria - the main point is that in Spain bullfighting is not considered a sport, nor do those who defend it consider it a sport. For example, it does not appear in the sports sections of newspapers, nor in the sports sections of news programs. Whether it is regarded as an art or not is irrelevant.

It was Tom who made the following claim:

“What is the defence that is most frequently offered for the corrida? That it is a sport.”

This is an empirical statement that I believe to be false. Tom, you need to provide evidence to back up this claim, otherwise you are making a straw man of your opponents (which would also be rather hypocritical of you since that is what you accused your opponents of).

Comment from Edith
Time: May 18, 2008, 12:59 pm

‘Art’ or not, how do the bulls feel about it? How about the pain, rage, and anguish they experience? They have no choice in the matter, and they are just being used for purposes which have got nothing to do with human survival whatsoever.

Comment from richardksa
Time: May 18, 2008, 1:39 pm

Re the comments about the bull not having a chance: In a chance conversation this weekend I was told that the “Benign” dictator of Spain, Miguel Primo de Riviera, made a pronouncement that all bulls must be killed in the bullring. Apparently, in order to save money, some bulls were merely teased and used again another day. But the bulls learned the tricks of the torreadores and many fighters were injured or killed. So from that time on no bull was to be given a second chance.
So, if it’s a given who the victor will be, it can never be called a sport. Not an art form either, but there is plenty of pagentry which might be considered entertaining. I watched it on TV over the weekend and was both fascinated and repulsed. Like watching a horror movie, which plenty of people pay to see.
BTW: I can find no online reference to the above “pronouncement”, but the guy who mentioned it seemed to know his history well.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 18, 2008, 5:40 pm

@ Maria S,

I have never been to a bullfight either, but I have seen very disturbing videos shot by animal rights activists. Some deductive reasoning might suffice to draw one’s own conclusion: the animals are suffering.

Comment from Maria S.
Time: May 21, 2008, 10:34 pm

@Edith,

I have never been to a bullfight and don’t see myself attending one either. Something “wrong”, when kept up over so many years, just seems normal to many Spaniards.
This is not an excuse, just an explanation on my part.
I would not enjoy watching an animal die for the sake of entertainment or sports or art or whatever.
This tradition must have been started by the male species….

Comment from Luciana Sarra
Time: May 22, 2008, 11:34 pm

I never thought I would want go to a bullfight. In fact, when my family and friends found out I would come to Spain on vacation, they asked me if I would watch a bullfight, and my answer was a bold “of course not!”

On my first week in Spain, I went to buy dinner at a local restaurant in Madrid, and while waiting for the food I was bewitched by the bullfight that they were showing on TV — locals cheered, yelled, talked out loud as if the bullfighter could hear them. There was intense passion on both the bullfight and the spectators around me. I felt duende!

A week later I visited the bullring in Valencia (only the ring, sin corrida), and I felt the same. As soon as I came back to Madrid, I reserved a ticket for my first (and maybe last) bullfight, which is this Sunday. I will post an update to this post after I watch the corrida.

Comment from Núria
Time: May 23, 2008, 10:21 am

Hola Ben! This is my first time in your blog and got “trapped” in this post! Have to see more

I’m catalan and hate bullfighting, but my husbands loves it! I’m with Canarygirl… would like to see a real “dance” or fight between the torero and the bull in even conditions; no blood, no swords.
And yes, money is behind this “tradition”… tones of money! I don’t think corridas are in danger of extintion… the fight is inside and outside the plaza to get the tickets!!!

Comment from Marta from Barcelona
Time: May 25, 2008, 7:35 pm

It’s a matter of social extraction. Young people in Spain feel Bullfighting as alien to their own identity as Rodeo. Then you have a certain type of Spaniard, the one who fills up the Bullring every Friday, who are really into it and who will support it for generations to come. But I must say those are a minority, despite the fact the fill up the Bullring every friday

Comment from cindy
Time: May 30, 2008, 9:30 pm

things in spain dont progress very fast. i protest by not watching on tv, not buying bullfighting related items, etc…
my silent protest wont turn the events in spain very quickly. but if more people do the same???

it will still take a few more generations to change anything. the little boys in my pueblo just LOVE everything BF. im sure they will support this for many years and probably influance their sons also. probably people will figure out a way to do it even it the event doesnt make money.

Comment from Beckett
Time: May 31, 2008, 4:36 am

NYTimes piece that came out this weekend about bullfighting.

http://tinyurl.com/5dlea5