Comment from raytibbitts
Time: October 23, 2008, 2:15 am

While I disapprove of hunting for sport; at least he didn’t use poison to try to kill it. Maybe if wolf tasted better…

Comment from Graeme
Time: October 23, 2008, 8:05 am

I think they are planning to shoot over100 wolves this year in Castilla Leon - they claim that there is overpopulation and that other regions wouldn’t take the surplus. On the other hand they like to hand out hunting licences. They did it in a memorable a few years when the owner of a herd of cows died - they invited hunters to go and shoot the cows who were loose, and obviously extremely dangerous, on the mountainside. Imagine how difficult it must have been to stalk a cow.

Comment from bill (Legazpi)
Time: October 23, 2008, 9:57 am

I read an article a few years ago that said wolves are making quite a big comeback in many parts of Europe. I think the reason given was that a lot of land which had previously been farmed is now being left to go wild again, since it is no longer economical to farm it. I don’t think wolves are considered to be endangered, so I guess you could argue that it is better to shoot them instead of bears for example. Personally I’ve never seen the attraction in hunting, but I see no clear reason to prevent others from doing it, provided it is done in a responsible manner.

Comment from Tom
Time: October 23, 2008, 10:22 am

While there’s something charming about knowing that wolves run around in the same country you live in, I can understand the human urge to shoot wolves: we have a long history of enmity and even though they probably don’t pose much of a threat these days, it’s natural not to want the lanes and woods near your farm to be populated by wolves.

But I suspect that most of these wolves are nowhere near people’s farms (except, perhaps, during the tough winters when food is scarcer), so some proper justification needs to be offered before a cull is permitted.

Hunting for sport (as opposed to food or protection) is a stupid, unnecessary pastime and shouldn’t be allowed. It’s destruction for fun. Get a PS3!

Comment from Parubin
Time: October 23, 2008, 10:25 am

… due to recent and increasing overpopulation I believe.

The local governments hand out compensations to livestock farmers for damages caused by wolves to their cattle. Still the compensation only covers about 50% of the market value.

And yes, wolves were an endangered specie in Spain some years back (in the early 80’s) but thanks to the work of wildlife activists (like pioneer and legend Felix Rodríguez de la Fuente -anyone knows this guy???-) the public perception towards these animals increased and programs intended to extend wolve population were put into practice.

I read a while back that wolve population in areas of Galicia, Castilla León, and southern Asturias and Cantabria had increased so much that it was somewhat of a plague. Licenses were handed out to keep under control their growth.

I agree, nevertheless, that the image of a dead wolve staining in red with blood the white snow below is disgusting.

This is what happens when wildlife disturbs us humans. The little creatures always pay the price. I always found it disturbing when in most cities (at least in Spain) they have to capture and poison (apparently a painless death, so they say) hundreds of pigeons living within the city limits once a year. Otherwise the overpopulation would be unbearable and the cost of cleaning all the mess they leave behing would be a little too high.

I don´t specially like city-peagons (being quite dirty as they are) and I agree the measure is a sensible one. Anyway I still find it quite unconfortable the concept to capturing and killing pigeons by the hundred, with the symbol that doves embody and all…

Comment from Tom
Time: October 23, 2008, 11:30 am

@Parubin - I’ve actually been considering starting a campaign to wipe out all pigeons from Spanish cities. They’re vermin and they ruin buildings and streets. I completely loathe them.

Doves would be protected, especially considering they are the symbol of the second summer of love!

Comment from bill (Legazpi)
Time: October 23, 2008, 11:38 am

@Tom wrote “Hunting for sport (as opposed to food or protection) is a stupid, unnecessary pastime and shouldn’t be allowed. It’s destruction for fun. Get a PS3!”

Hmmm, I can think of more reasons for banning PS3s than for banning the hunting of wolves for sport.

Comment from bill (Legazpi)
Time: October 23, 2008, 11:44 am

@Parubin, Tom

I think you’ve both touched on an oddity in the Spanish language - it doesn’t seem to distinguish between doves and pigeons (they are both “palomas”). Hence in English you can kill pigeons without killing the bird of peace (a dove), but in Spanish you can’t!

Comment from jeremy
Time: October 23, 2008, 12:07 pm

I’m always suprised by how tiny animal populations are compared to humans. Cities tend to be overrun with people! And they make a huge impact. The animals were there before the cities and towns, so I think we should just get used to them.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: October 23, 2008, 12:13 pm

But PS3s come with a Blu-Ray player and wolves are part of an ecosystem so why is the PS3 more worthy of banning than hunting a species to extinction and disturbing the ecosystem?

Comment from luke
Time: October 23, 2008, 12:20 pm

@bill
I think most languages don’t distinguish between pigeons and doves. And I think, in English, pigeons can also be called rock doves. The etymological origin of ‘pigeon’ is from the French and ‘dove’ is from the German. Our urban pigeon/doves are a horrible nuisance and the wood pigeons/doves look and sound lovely and taste pretty good too.

Comment from bill (Legazpi)
Time: October 23, 2008, 12:55 pm

@ValenciaSon

Who said anything about hunting a species to extinction? We’re talking about hunting a species for sport, in areas where it is not endangered. If hunting wolves in a certain area has a dangerous effect on that particular ecosystem, then you have a case for banning it in that area. However that doesn’t appear to be the case in Spain.

A case for banning PS3s is that it encourages kids to spend all day in their bedroom, getting fat, while they are hooked into some meaningless virtual environment (a bit like NFS ).

As I said earlier, I can’t think of a clear case for banning hunting for sport, provided it is done in a responsible manner.

Comment from Parubin
Time: October 23, 2008, 2:20 pm

More about this : I’ve just read a couple of articles.

Apparently Spain has the biggest population of wolves in Europe and they have (re)gained territories in which they had not been seen in almost a century (like Catalonia and the Madrid Region) and in general terms the number of pack of wolves has increased and are more visible almost everywhere in rural Spain.

Castilla y León authorities say that 100 wolves need to be killed every year in that region so overpopulation doesn´t get out of hand.

Anyway, the wolf-issue tends to raise controversy among conservationists and farmers, who have opposite views. But what almost everyone agrees on is that the wolf is not an endangered specie in Spain (although it was up untill the 70’s and early 80’s) and the population has grown significantly in recent years.

A few of these articles :

http://www.portaldelmedioambiente.com/2005/03/04/el-lobo-campea-de-nuevo/

http://www.elmundo.es/papel/2004/09/13/madrid/1690848.html

http://blogs.20minutos.es/cronicaverde/post/2008/06/02/el-lobo-llega-cataluaaa

http://www.lavozdeasturias.es/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=392874

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/Espana/extiende/caza/lobo/elpporsoc/20061112elpepisoc_3/Tes/

Comment from Urgellenk
Time: October 23, 2008, 2:26 pm

Wolves are not endangered but thriving in North Spain. Hunting them in a responsible and controlled manner does not disturb the ecosystem, but helps to preserve it.

Comment from Espanglish
Time: October 23, 2008, 3:14 pm

When I lived near San Francisco, the pigeon problem was awful. San Francisco is known for being the greenest, most liberal city in the U.S. There was a plan to poison the pigeons, but there was a huge public outcry, so they developed a plan to build nests and move raptor birds such as falcon and hawks into the city to hunt the pigeons. Just saying…

Comment from Edith
Time: October 23, 2008, 3:36 pm

Unfortunately, this anti-wolf hysteria is not unique to Spain - many if not most Westerners have always harbored an irrational fear towards wolves. I say ‘irrational’ because Native Americans view the wolf in an entirely different light, even pastoralists like the Navajos. Why is it that we still want to wipe every predator off the face of the earth while these same animals have always been honored in Native American cultures? I’m talking about wolves, bears, birds of prey, etc.

Comment from Edith
Time: October 23, 2008, 3:40 pm

This is a must-read for anyone who is really interested in the cultural aspects of human-wolf interaction:

Barry Lopez - Of Men and Wolves

http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-Men-Barry-Lopez/dp/0684163225

Comment from bill (Legazpi)
Time: October 23, 2008, 3:46 pm

@Edith wrote “Why is it that we still want to wipe every predator off the face of the earth…”

Who exactly is trying to wipe every predator off the face of the earth?

Vast sums of time, effort and money go into protecting predators and their environments all round the world, from African game parks, to South American jungles, to Spanish mountains. I’m also unaware of any “anti-wolf hysteria” going on in Spain, or anywhere else for that matter.

Comment from Urgellenk
Time: October 23, 2008, 3:51 pm

According to wikipedia, in English the terms “dove” and “pigeon” are used somewhat interchangeably in general parlance. In ornithological practice, there is a tendency for “dove” to be used for smaller species and “pigeon” for larger ones, but this is in no way consistently applied.

Spanish also uses the term pichón. Although it technically refers to squab or to any immature chick of any species, I see it all the time used interchangeably with paloma (except in gastronomical terms, when it is always used). Then, there are also the tórtolas (turtle doves).

Comment from Urgellenk
Time: October 23, 2008, 3:56 pm

Wolves are protected under European Legislation. Only in populations which are deemed healthy enough (like Spain North of the Duero, North Greece and I believe also now in parts of Romania) is controlled hunting allowed.

Ironically, this limited hunting is a source of very high revenues for empoverished human populations in remote areas that are starting to look at their former enemies with different eyes and thus becoming a warrant for the perpetuation of the species.

Comment from John Ross
Time: October 23, 2008, 4:01 pm

Wolf populations have recovered in the North of Spain to the extent that they are killing livestock. This is normal behaviour for wolves. It means population pressure is giving rise to hunger which causes them to overcome their fear of human activities. Farmers are unhappy that the compensation they are given for dead animals is something like half their real value, and would like to see the wolves kept at a distance. This is normal for farmers. Hunters enjoy killing wolves and almost anything else. This is normal behaviour for hunters. What’s the problem? If wolf populations have recovered to this extent, we should all cheer. And pass the ammunition.

Comment from Margot
Time: October 23, 2008, 5:21 pm

Lo peor de lo peor:

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2008/09/08/sarah_palin_wolves/

Comment from Edith
Time: October 23, 2008, 5:22 pm

@ Bill,

Despite all conservation efforts, anti-wolf sentiments are still part and parcel of Western culture (i.e. Europe and America) - I recommend reading Barry Lopez’ book on this issue.

Comment from Margot
Time: October 23, 2008, 5:26 pm

…..almost makes bullfighting appear benign

Comment from graham
Time: October 23, 2008, 10:25 pm

Shoot a wolf. Butcher a pig. What’s the difference?

Comment from raytibbitts
Time: October 23, 2008, 11:05 pm

… almost, but not really.
Making a show of it makes it worse, IMNTBHO.

Comment from margot
Time: October 24, 2008, 2:20 am

@graham
…..welllll one does become food (I’m not saying that justifies the slaughter) while the other becomes……well just dead.
@raytibbitts
a link to a show about a show (of pointless, predictable horror). Ben I just posted this link in forum so remove this if it’s “overkill”.
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:5SAnunTGNKoJ:www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/16/60minutes/main4526581.shtml+60+Minutes+%2Bbullfighting&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Comment from raytibbitts
Time: October 24, 2008, 5:22 pm

Well, if 60 Minutes did a show about them, they MUST be important… *gag me with two fingers.

Comment from Jonk
Time: October 24, 2008, 7:38 pm

Some dude was around the house I am staying with the other day for dinner. He was talking about shooting wolves as if it was the most natural thing in the world…

Comment from Jonk
Time: October 24, 2008, 7:39 pm

To clarify, this is in Madrid.

Comment from Edith
Time: October 24, 2008, 11:21 pm

@ Jonk,

Your anecdote reminds me of those local clodhoppers in ‘Jaws’ who went out with their boats to capture and kill the big shark, but came back empty-handed. Remember how they hooted and hollered?

Comment from graham
Time: October 25, 2008, 12:22 am

@margot

I’m sure that that must reassure the pig no end

But don’t worry, I’m not here to proselytise.

I just find it interesting that people are willing to hold apparently contradictory views: tacitly encourage all that is entailed in the process of bringing a nicely packaged end product to your plate, and yet at the same time express concern/abhorrence/outrage (fill in your own level of sentiment) at the killing of non-livestock animals.

Put it this way - which would you rather be: a wolf living your life free to roam the countryside but brought to a swift end by a hunter’s bullet; or one of these: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=V_7PxtrCaCU

Again, don’t worry - there is nothing explicit in the video… but I’m sure you can imagine what is coming next.

In fact there was far more explicit footage of ‘la matanza’ shown not so long ago on the BBC in a series about Spanish cookery. Now *that* wasn’t something for the faint-hearted to witness.

Comment from leftbanker
Time: October 25, 2008, 11:48 am

This matter is particularly close to my heart as wolves ate my grandmother, or at least they did in the stories my mother read to me as a child. Once wolves develop a taste for grandmothers, their hunger for grandchildren is only a few mouthfuls away, at least that was my thinking back then. My parents refused my request for a high powered rifle back when I was 6 years old. If I remember correctly, wolf-on-pig violence was also rather prevalent in her stories. I can’t imagine a greater threat to the sanctity of Spanish life than wolves eating our hallowed swine.

I have spent a lot of time in the mountains of British Columbia but have never seen a wolf. Washington state, where I lived, has no wolves…yet. Naturalists have been trying to coax them back into the mountains there. I think they are using grandmothers and little piggies as bait.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: October 25, 2008, 6:34 pm

If you have to kill a wolf, buy a PS3 and get a gym membership. If you have to kill a pig, make it iberico and call me.

Comment from margot
Time: October 25, 2008, 6:51 pm

@Ben: What’s to be done about the shooting of wolves?

To return to Ben’s original query: It does imply that something SHOULD be done (shoot the shooter? …I’m joking)… at least have laws/regulations..well…something.
But it’s obvious from this thread that there’s fierce disagreement/passion even amongst those who aren’t hunters at all but simply don’t want to see any restrictions imposed on their (wrong) “rights”.
Meanwhile “They Shoot Horses Don’t They” could be re-made/retitled/re-cast…..

@Graham:” I just find it interesting that people are willing to hold apparently contradictory views: tacitly encourage all that is entailed in the process of bringing a nicely packaged end product to your plate, and yet at the same time express concern/abhorrence/outrage (fill in your own level of sentiment) at the killing of non-livestock animals.”

I do agree entirely..I’m aware of the self deception - actually I’m a “semi-vegetarian (I know: that’s like being a “little bit pregnant”) - never eat meat, eggs, cheese, rarely even eat chicken - but love my leather shoes, handbags…you get the point: she’s just another self-delusional hypocrite

Comment from Edith
Time: October 26, 2008, 11:00 am

@ ValenciaSon,

Do you mind if I join you at the table?

Comment from sven
Time: October 29, 2008, 9:47 pm

do not kill wolves anywhere they have a role in the natural balance

Comment from raytibbitts
Time: October 31, 2008, 7:12 am

For some reason I just remembered a somewhat related story.
Let’s say that a friend of mine, just in case the statute of limitations isn’t up yet, killed an enormous eastern diamondback rattlesnake.
He was alone on a construction site, against company (and OSHA) guidelines. It was getting late in the afternoon, and a snake appeared, distracting him from doing his assignment of completing a quality-control checklist, and replacing a few twisted studs, before they could start sheetrock.
If he went ‘inside’ it followed him inside, outside - outside, howbeit more slowly than him, as he strolled about completing his tasks.
He became dismayed when it began to follow him more closely as he went to the truck, parked near the tree line, to fetch some tools. So he tossed a hammer at it to see if it would go away, but completely missed, and the serpent began to get too close for comfort. So he tossed a larger, sledge-sized one at it, and it appeared to bounce off it’s head. (Maybe he missed again?)
It then began to coil and angrily shake its rattle, appearing to get bigger, thicker, and taller. It lunged at the air a little, and the guy got up in the bed of the truck, and decided he was never going to get his job done before it got too dark, unless he got rid of the snake.
There were several large cinder blocks in the back of the truck with him, and he first thought of dropping them down and just pinning the snake to the ground with their weight, at least until he could finish his job. He really didn’t want to kill the animal, but adrenaline was making some of his decisions for him, as the snake was now between him and his own vehicle, he didn’t have keys to the truck, there was no cellphone coverage, and no neighbors for at least half a mile.
He tried to just drop a block as directly onto the rattler as possible, but it was just too far off the tailgate get the angle right, and it was looking right back at his face the whole time, and he actually missed, AGAIN. The snake moved to the side a bit, but no closer to the pickup. The next block he hefted over landed on the midsection of the snake, and it sank, snake and all, half the depth of the brick into the soft clayey soil, which was all the more softened from the rains earlier that afternoon.
At first, it looked like it was going to work, and he started looking for a 2×4 he could use later to free the snake, before he left. When he looked back towards the snake, it had wiggled forward about six inches, exposing the portion of its body that had sustained the impact of the brick. It was about to inch forward again, but blood appeared, gushing up from the little mud cave that formed around it, from under the block. It was writhing in what he assumed to be pain, and he felt immediate remorse, and a little disillusioned that such a big strong snake was so easy to hurt.
He chose to ‘put it out of its misery.’ Selecting a heavier, solid concrete block, (the first one was one of those hollow kind,) and he slammed it down closer to the snake’s head, as it had managed to work itself most of the way free. Now that it was pinned again, and didn’t have enough free length to strike, he jumped down, and ran quickly to get a long, sharp-edged piece of metal, and cut the head off in one stroke.
He took photos, and a video of it, which he showed to his wife once, when he was trying to explain what took him so long to get home that night. She demanded he tell it to her family. Ever since he showed his in-laws, he decided to never show anyone else, ever again.
It really bothered him how he was trying to tell it like he felt forced into having to kill something that he wished had just gone away on its own, but they were obviously hearing it like some amazing story of a monster being slain, by an the guy ‘you-never-would-have-thought-had-it-in-him’ no less.

Okay, honestly, he didn’t tell his wife until that particular house was finished, and he never had to go back, and only after she had been bugging him several times about being careful on distant job-sites, asking him what would happen if he was by himself and something dangerous showed up.

He kept the rattle. (His mother-in-law nearly kicked him out of her house when she came across it, as she was nosing through his belongings.) Served her right, if she really was as terrified by it as she claimed.

Comment from John Ross
Time: October 31, 2008, 2:41 pm

Good story. Are rattlers protected, then? Odd behaviour, I’d have thought - most snakes don’t have nests to protect, so why would it pursue (the person in question)?

Comment from Edith
Time: October 31, 2008, 4:10 pm

Do snakes really sneak up on people, or do they just want to be left alone?
In Arizona, I had an encounter with a western diamond snake once, which rattled at me to warn me I was entering his territory, and after I backed off he disappeared into the underbrush.

Comment from raytibbitts
Time: November 1, 2008, 6:22 am

Eastern Diamondbacks are protected in some areas, and the property in question backed up against public lands. I assume that there is some chance that this particular snake may have been protected. It was not in North Carolina.

This family had all the permits to build on their property, and we built it where they wanted it.
After clearing the trees and brush, and digging the footers, I am convinced that we saw burrows of animals that would have fed many snakes, especially a big one.

It was late in the year, I had the best heat-signature in the forest, and I’m sure the recent lack of food had something to do with the snake’s curiosity, and it may have not been specifically following me, but I perceived it that way. I mean, my “friend” did.

I have had many experiences with Western Diamondbacks in Southern California, and I have never had one stick around in an area that I had entered into. The always run, and then run some more if you happen to be headed in the same direction as them. But if they stop, they usually seem pretty angry about being bothered, and they look dangerous enough that I have never stuck around to find out what would happen, but instead, I have altered my course to avoid them, or gone back out the way I came in.
This was the first time running into a snake when I couldn’t easily yell and be heard by neighbors. It was also the first time where it would have effected my job performance had I decided to just go away.
I still regret that the snake died.

All life is valuable. Poisoning, trapping, hunting, and making sport of killing animals really is wasteful, and it can even come back to ‘bite’ us. I don’t think that it is necessary to abstain from eating meat altogether, but a healthier diet is one with low amounts of animal products in it. Animals don’t have the same basic ‘rights’ as humans, they are not equal with us, and I don’t believe we are somehow enemies of Nature, which is why it is our responsibility to use our greater capacities to keep it that way. Limiting ourselves and making compromises is part of being human, some basic principles should never be compromised, but sometimes it makes sense for an individual to forego certain wants and desires, in order to diminish the impact on wildlife, as well as farm animals. We are the humans, we are the only ones with the mandate to be humane.

Making sport out of their deaths makes us LESS human.

Over the millennia, societies’ perceptions of these ethical questions have evolved. I am gald that there are no longer very many people who only eat meat that they knew personally when it was alive, nor have to hunt to find. I like enjoying a delicious meal, being several times removed from the animals that died to make me happy. Not that I like not knowing, but I like having the choice.

I wonder what the future holds, and how society will continue to evolve around these issues. We are not far from being able to grow hamburger in a lab, without it ever having been a part of a cow. There will be ways to make lab-grown meat that is indistinguishable from certain cuts of actual animals. I wonder how long before it is financially feasible, and how many will choose to eat it, instead of farm-raised meat?

Will I ever lament the possible side-effects of my grandkids eating lab-meat, the way my grandfather suspects that never eating the meat of an animal we hunted (or fished) for ourselves is the cause of general “wimpy-ness” among his grandkids?

I wonder.

Comment from Edith
Time: November 1, 2008, 12:08 pm

Great post, Raytibbitts! I couldn’t agree more.

Comment from raytibbitts
Time: November 4, 2008, 7:15 pm

It just occurred to me (I’m a bit slow) that it may have been more than one rattler…

After seeing this video:
http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/town-rattled-by-rattlesnakes/12117510

Comment from Edith
Time: November 4, 2008, 11:09 pm

@ Raytibbitts,

¿Quién sabe?