Marina, my Madrileña wife, has a theory: that there is less OCD in Spain than the UK.
She bases this idea on the fact that she knows quite a lot of people connected to my circle in the UK who complain openly about having OCD, or knowing people that have had OCD, and, in all honesty, her husband (me) has been through some slightly more obsessive-compulsive periods of life than is strictly useful, helpful or necessary.
But she really can’t think of more than about one of our circle of acquaintances in Spain that falls into the OCD typology. Same socio-economic group, over a similar range of ages (teens to old age), yet only one OCD case here compared to, well, muchos in the UK.
My theory is that this just isn’t true, that it’s just a) more fashionable to admit to having OCD in the UK (as insane as that might sound, and as insulting as it might seem to anyone that has been through the hell of it… like me), and b) that the Brits are just less bothered about admitting such things when they do happen.
(And when I say fashionable, clearly I don’t mean it’s cool, but it’s like ADD – no-one every really mentioned either of these afflictions until a few years ago, and now everyone is happy enough to be labeled with them – in Spain I don’t think OCD has entered the lingual currency enough to be had by enough people yet… am I making any sense?!)
Certainly there are enough people with mental problems in Spain, our psychiatrist friend who works for the social services here and deals with a huge number of schizophrenics, chronic depresessives and drug psychosis cases constantly contests to that.
But is it possible that Marina is right, that the Spanish are less obsessive? That they are just more… well… chilled out in general, and as such less prone to obsessive compulsive tendencies? Or am I right in thinking that OCD, like ADD, just isn’t a recognised part of the mental health landscape here, yet bubbles away under the surface to the same degree that it does out in the open in the UK
Thoughts welcome, about Spain, the UK, or where you come from too…
Mike
14 Sep 09 at 4:56 pm
No olvidas Mujeres al borde de un ataque de nervios !!!
Annie Bennett
14 Sep 09 at 5:10 pm
You’re right Ben. OCD just isn’t in the Spanish mainstream psyche as a possible ailment yet. Interesting to compare with how often Spanish women say they’ve got ‘la tension muy baja’, while their British counterparts can only say they’re feeling a bit hot and tired and their feet hurt when they’ve been shopping on a hot day, with no medical condition to blame it on.
Robin
14 Sep 09 at 5:14 pm
From my visits one of the major obsessions seems to be with cleaning – every hotel I’ve visited, even cheap ones have been spotless with what smells like copious amounts of bleach being used.
On a more general note the Spanish do seem more happy with their lot than in the UK (although without living there that’s only a surface view).
What’s undeniable though is their enhusiasm for food and drink and company which is infectious and heady. I’m sure that can cure a host of minor psychological problems. I know myself that just experiencing that sort of atmosphere can raise the spirits although the canas help as well.
Ben
14 Sep 09 at 5:26 pm
@Annie, how true! Everyone here is obsessed by their blood pressure and the ‘bajones’ it suffers at the least provocation. I’d never even thought in terms of my blood pressure before I got here, but the ladies in Marina’s family are constantly on about it!
Think we should start a list – things Brits get, things the Spanish get!
@Robin, how true also! Bloody bleach, ‘lejia’, is everywhere!
@Mike, great film!
Jessica
14 Sep 09 at 5:30 pm
Si, I think the Spanish are basically just more chilled out in general. My theory is that it’s all the sunshine!! (The fact that siestas have been an everyday part of the culture for so long probably helps the soul too!)
alan
14 Sep 09 at 7:39 pm
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Graham
14 Sep 09 at 8:11 pm
I just think it is different terminology. When we lived in Asturias a friend of ours (Asturian) had her mum cleaning the windows inside and out every day. They lived on the ninth floor. Who is going to notice? She was put on valium.
DBMark
14 Sep 09 at 9:03 pm
The women always seem more self-confident than their British counterparts, but that could be just image.
Bill (Legazpi)
14 Sep 09 at 9:26 pm
In my experience the Spanish are definitely obsessed with cleaning their homes, with their health in general, and get just as stressed out at work as the British do. I think the image of the Spanish being incredibly relaxed and easygoing has partly come about because people usually encounter them while on holiday.
John Keys
14 Sep 09 at 10:20 pm
Hmm – there might be even less OCD in Germany than Spain – I had to google the abbreviation to find out what it meant…
Frank
14 Sep 09 at 11:10 pm
“I had to google the abbreviation to find out what it meant…”
Have to confess to never having heard of any of my relatives or friend suffering from such a condition! I guess we move in less neurotic, less screwed up circles than some here. Based on my personal experiences, I’d hardly agree that there are a lot of cases here in UK, given that I’ve never come across any.
And me!
RayT
15 Sep 09 at 9:29 am
My mother-in-law (Spaniard) is the very embodiment of Monk.
http://www.usanetwork.com/series/monk/
-the over-cleaning
-the fear/worry of all things unworthy of concern
-the ability to see right through her daughters’ most elaborate of lies
-most importantly, her ability to get her way, through grinding persistence, despite being inconvenient to everyone else involved.
But, not even her fiancé had heard of OCD.
He has now, and he LOVES knowing about it!
Dan
15 Sep 09 at 9:56 am
You may find that many Spanish women are obsessed about bleach. I never knew there were so many different types of bleach and so many uses for it until I came to Spain.
I also can’t quite get my head around being overly tidy inside the house and leaving the streets a mess. Maybe it perfectly balances out leaving the Spanish population miraculously free of OCD.
Slightly more seriously, I think the Spanish are quite obsessive. Those that are still religious have their religious rituals, and many other things are done because ‘se hace así’.
Parubin
15 Sep 09 at 11:54 am
I travel by plane quite a lot (maybe I catch two or three planes a month on average) and still I have this obsession with checking and re-cheking the boarding card: “flight number, boarding gate, time of boarding, have I got my id, the luggage stickers, is everything in place… etc”. When I travel with family is even worse since I have to take care of everyone’s documents and ids and make sure a number of occasions that all’s just fine : when packing, when driving to the airport, when entering the airport, when checking in, when going trough the scanner, when in the boarding hall, while waiting at the cafetería, etc. Mad really!!
I know that is obsessive and it drives my wife crazy (at first it made her laugh, not anymore) but I think that is the only bizarre obsession I can think of for myself and I don´t know why. I have never missed a flight in my life and I’m pretty much a freewheeling lad when it comes to most other things. It’s not a problem really but it would be curious to come up with a theory on this.
Richardksa
15 Sep 09 at 12:37 pm
OCD, I will HAVE to look that up, some day, later.
Pippa
15 Sep 09 at 12:52 pm
Having worked in both health systems (UK and Spain) I do not think there is more OCD in Britain than in Spain (or the reverse), but certainly more ADD in Spain than Britain.
There is more use of bleach in Spain, and cleanliness, but to have OCD you have to have a repetitive behaviour – and obsessive thoughts-, (for example, I remember a man that whenever he put his shirt on, had to do and undo his buttons eight times, and when he was unwell went up to 16, or 24 times. It used to take him an hour to get dressed. I know this is an extreme case, but is the sort of thing that people do, the most common thing is hand washing repeatedly, checking the gas several times, etc )
Ben
15 Sep 09 at 2:54 pm
Thanks for all the comments so far, I can’t believe how many of you hadn’t heard of OCD! Lucky you!
@Pippa, I’m surprised ADD is more of a problem here, I thought it was a very British problem too.
@Parubin, I have a similar problem with travel docs, drives me mad…
@Dan, ’se hace así’. – so true, that phrase can drive you mad!
@Graham – It doesn’t matter if no-one could see them, she would know they were dirty! Y aqui las cosas no se hace asi!
RayT
16 Sep 09 at 12:53 am
Now speaking honestly, not from the ironic, pop-culture usage of OCD:
I wonder if BPD is any more prevalent in Spain, if OCD isn’t.
Would anyone bother to get diagnosed, and therefore show up in the statistics?
simon
16 Sep 09 at 8:45 am
I think that every housewife in Velez Blanco (and possibly Spain) has OCD. It’s normal to sweep the house clean, even the front step. But the street!, despite the village traffic (little dumper trucks carrying sand etc.) risking life and limb, holding up the school bus, in a force eight off the Sierra Maria!
OCD is obsessive cleaning disorder isn’t it?
ValenciaSon
16 Sep 09 at 12:06 pm
Maybe Spain’s lifestyle in general is less conducive, less than the UK, to exacerbating those individuals who are otherwise genetically coded for OCD.
con Ka
16 Sep 09 at 12:22 pm
I don´t think the Spanish are more chilled out, it’s just that no one speaks about mental disorders. It’s taboo.
May it be the reason to always look for physical disorders (tengo la tensión baja), and not for mental states (me siento triste, deprimido, etc.)?
Saludos
Jules
16 Sep 09 at 4:33 pm
The film ‘As Good as it Gets’, a comedy starring Jack Nicholson, shows what I presume to be OCD. Got to admit, I didn’t think it was a widespread condition
Mark
16 Sep 09 at 9:17 pm
Certainly there is still a big stigma related to mental health issues and there’s often the fear of being perceived as weak with no strength of character . At times of stress, I’ve found myself occasionally checking things more than what might be considered healthy. Keys, doors locked, gas off , lights off, got passport, etc. Kept under control some obsessive traits could be an asset to certain lines of work . A minor physical injury on the other hand, from say a sporting mishap, is often a badge of honour to be shared with friends down the pub. Well from a male British perspective it often is sadly!
It wouldn’t surprise me if there were higher rates of metal health issues in Northern Europe as the dark winter nights close in. Where O.C.D. and S.A.D. meet I suppose. Don’t you just love acronyms?! Maybe, as already has been said, in Britain more of us are just a little bit better at admitting to having a few “issues” from time to time?
Mark
Pippa
17 Sep 09 at 7:07 am
@con Ka: I can tell you that people in Spain do not have any trouble at all to talk about mental disorders. It is not taboo anymore. In fact, they even talk about mental disorders when they have not got anything.
@ Ben: Yes, there is an obsession with blood pressure.
@Jules: wonderful film. Yes, that is OCD and it is not widespread.
Colemar
18 Sep 09 at 10:06 am
There probably is more ADD in spain and it is because all the children are constantly tired. The Spanish think it is normal for children not to sleep and as a consequence they are all overtired and then hyperactive and unable to concentrate.
ValenciaSon
18 Sep 09 at 12:02 pm
ADD seems to have a genetic component so I suspect sleep deprivation will only exacerbate those already with the condition. I wonder if those a northern european extract are susceptible to different conditions from those of southern Europe.
con Ka
18 Sep 09 at 12:38 pm
@Pippa: Well, I supose it depends on the area and the people. I live in the north, and from my experience, visiting the psychiatrist has never been something you mention in public, even now. When someone is ‘deprimido’, the family and friends try not to talk too much about it, which turns it in a taboo. That’s my experience, of course, it may be different in other areas, in big cities, etc.
Colemar
18 Sep 09 at 12:55 pm
As one report says:
“Studies have shown a clear link between sleep dysfunction, which causes excessive daytime sleepiness, and behavioral, mood and performance deficits,” says Dr. Ivanenko, who reported her findings recently at the second annual “Sleep and Learning” Seminar for DuPage County educators, sponsored by Central DuPage Hospital. So it may be a case of misdiagnosis. Of course, all these illnesses are subject to culture and fashio, which affects the number of cases. Things like OCD and ADA – or come to that Swine Flu – Gripe A – are not easily measure in an objective way and so the number of cases in a country tell us more about the health systems in those countries than the extent of an illness.
Pippa
19 Sep 09 at 11:22 am
@Colemar: I don’t agree. Psychiatric conditions are nowadays well defined in the DSM IV TR (Criteria for psychiatric illnesses from the American Psychiatric Association) and the CIE 10 (from the WHO) and the diagnosis is reasonably straight forward, many times much easier than an abdominal pain.
What is fashionable is saying “I have OCD” when you just have some habits or are very tidy. According to de diagnosis of OCD, one has to spend at least an hour a day with these obsessions or compulsions beetween other things. Others say “I am depressed” when they mean “I am sad”, but they do not have the other symptoms that are required to have a clinical depression.
@conKa: I am from the north, although I do not live there anymore, I go there quite often. It is true that older people do not talk about it, but I find that cancer is still more of a taboo than psychiatric illnesses (in the sense of people not talking about it)
But I can tell you that younger (up to the age 50 more or less) people talk very happily about there depressions and anxiety states. I have heard it in bars, terrazas, everywhere. I live in a town with a population of 17000, and work in one of 40.000 so it cannot be considered as big.
ValenciaSon
19 Sep 09 at 5:44 pm
Studies with adopted children with ADD reveal ADD children resembled their biological parents more than they did their adoptive parents with respect to ADD. There have also been twin studies where the twins were separated at birth, growing in different environments and yet the majority shared their ADD traits. Genetic markers implicated with coding for ADD have been identified. The only other causes documented for causing ADD is trauma to the brain by considerable impact to the head and exposure to toxins while in utero, such as alcohol and tobacco smoke and lead.
mar
20 Sep 09 at 2:25 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/majornews/2505011/Hospitals-infested-with-rats-fleas-and-bed-bugs.html
Long life to the Sp obsession …
Marina
21 Sep 09 at 8:35 pm
This post comes from a conversation I had with Ben a few days ago. Obviously there is no proof of what I said, but it is true that we know many more (young) people with OCD in the UK, and if you asked me, again only my opinion, I would say it has to do more with cultural traits.
Robin, I thought it was very funny what you said about clean hotels… as much as I can’t stand bleach smell, wouldn’t you prefer to be in a clean hotel than in a dirty one???
Again I think the cleaning standards are also different and I also think that it is cultural thing. Most of the women my mum’s generation and older didn’t work, so they cook for their families and they clean the house EVERY DAY. Some more obsessively than others:-) And I would say that in small villages having your house and your entrance clean is like a pride thing.
ValenciaSon
22 Sep 09 at 11:44 am
Doesn’t the DSM IV require a majority of listed qualifiers to be present in order to state an individual has that condition?
Dan
22 Sep 09 at 9:05 pm
@Marina: I suppose the Spanish are less screwed up in one way, but more in another. There’s less pressure to do things ‘properly’ in Spain to the point where someone else is wilfully inconvenienced. You know; ya se apañarán, ya se espabilarán.
Pippa
23 Sep 09 at 9:02 am
@ValenciaSon: Yes, that is why I say that many people say they have OCD when they really have not got the clinical condition.
ValenciaSon
24 Sep 09 at 1:19 am
@ Pippa, sorry, my ADD must be kicking in.
Pippa
24 Sep 09 at 9:08 am
@ValenciaSon: Are you against me? or is it my paranoia?
Hollis
24 Sep 09 at 12:45 pm
New York Times blog article on OCD today
ValenciaSon
25 Sep 09 at 11:30 am
Slow deep breaths Pippa, slow deep breaths.
Rai
25 Sep 09 at 2:00 pm
It used to bother me when I would hear people saying the words “depression” “schizophrenia” “OCD” “ADHD” etc. without really meaning the true clinical definitions.
But then I switched from Zyprexa to Solian (and moved to Spain) and now I just don’t care anymore.
Thorsten
29 Sep 09 at 5:14 pm
OCD just like Dyslexia or ADD are used far too often as an excuse for inadequate education (Dyslexia) or too much television and too little physical exercise (ADD). As a result real cases of the among mentioned disorders are often treated wrongly.
Rai
30 Sep 09 at 3:27 pm
@Thorsten: I totally agree, except some confusion over the last three words, “often treated wrongly” – unless you mean “treated” as in, “the general populace treats these words and phrases wrongly in their day-to-day speech.”
I find it very unlikely that the pubic perception of these maladies has much effect on the professional “treatment” of them, rather the ‘treatment’ they get in the media, thus reinforcing incorrect prejudices and misconceptions.
However, I would say that, in general, the general public has greatly improved, over the last several decades, their general perception of mental illnesses and people afflicted with them.
But, as awareness increases, so does the realization of the complexity of all the numerous ways that a person may be afflicted. And for those lucky enough to not be afflicted with a particular disorder, or to live with someone who is, the differences and symptoms begin to seem like such vague nuances, as to almost require an over-simplification, lest we all become specialists or psychologists.
Maybe we just need calm rejection of misinformation, as well as progress by the public and professionals themselves, even if that requires them to come up with re-definitions and new vocabulary, such as ceasing to even use words like “schizophrenia” in favor of more precise ‘medical’ terminology, just as is done in other areas of medicine.
Pippa
1 Oct 09 at 7:01 am
@Rai: Schizophrenia is a perfectly suitable medical term which is very well defined and understood between professionals.
Rai
2 Oct 09 at 5:10 am
@Pippa: As my wife is actually the one with it, I get kind of “obsessed” with it, and read too much sometimes:
http://clinicalsearchtips.com/2009/03/03/dsm-v-author-calls-for-new-definition-of-psychosis-disorders/
Pippa
3 Oct 09 at 10:30 am
@Rai: And do you think that calling it salience dysregulation syndrome is going to be well understood?
Rai
6 Oct 09 at 4:36 pm
@Pippa: I don’t particularly care what professionals come up with to call its diagnosis amongst themselves.
I used to care that the general public used ‘schizophrenia’ to mean something more along the lines of ‘multiple personality disorder’ – and I have had the misfortune of seeing how broad a spectrum there really is among those individuals who actually have schizophrenia, which used to make me wonder whether it really is just one, single disorder, or if in fact, it’s more complicated than a single word can describe. Sadly, I say, “I used to” because I am now beyond caring. Not that I have replaced worrying about it with worrying about anything else – I am just simply apathetic about most everything.
Pippa
8 Oct 09 at 12:17 am
@Rai: You are right that there is a very wide spectrum in schizophrenia, the problem is that some of the patients have very clear symptoms of one of the types of the condition, but others show symptoms of several types. Once we know the organic cause of schizophrenia it will be much easier, but I am afraid we probably are one generation away from it. Epilepsy, about one hundred years ago, used to be a psychiatric illness, and today it is in the neurology field as they found the organic cause and treatments (not always successful, unfortunately) so it is easier to control.
With regards to people regarding schizophrenia as “multiple personality disorder” that is just pure ignorance, but what do you expect, when people do not know even the symptoms for flu. Or they say they are depressed when they are just sad, or they have a natural bereavement reaction.