Comment from IHaveADream
Time: May 26, 2007, 2:51 pm

Ben,
How would you know that this isn’t representative of attitudes in Spain? Have you done a survey of racially ethnic immigrants/tourists in Spain? Don’t be so quick to assume that what was expressed in that restaurant isn’t representative of something sick and twisted in modern-day Spanish society. Here’s the thing: Nobody, not a single person in that restaurant, publicly voiced any disdain, disgust or disagreement about what all those people said. There wasn’t even anyone who said “Would you people mind keeping your opinions to yourself? I’m trying to eat.”

The guy who recounted the situation noted that he didn’t say anything. He just eat his meal and left. Silence = acquiescence. It’s all good and well to blog about one’s disgust but it would’ve been so much more effective and telling if that Spaniard had said something, anything, to express his displeasure with his compatriotas. The fact that he said absolutely nothing, combined with the bile that shot out of not one, not two, but three people’s mouths in a public place that illegally denied service to someone based solely on their ethnicity, to me, IS representative of something.

Comment from Ben
Time: May 26, 2007, 3:06 pm

“How would you know that this isn’t representative of attitudes in Spain? ” - Because I spend a lot of time here with my eyes and ears open and that is the experience I have formed. Most educated people here feel great sympathy for those that immigrate here and have such a hard time. As for the uneducated, of course you will hear stories such as the one above, but what do you expect from idiots?

And just becuase the guy voted with his feet rather than his voice does not make him a bad person. Not everyone has to be outspoken to be morally correct.

Comment from Carl
Time: May 26, 2007, 3:52 pm

The Spanish have not dealt with immigration for very long. I’m afraid the truth is they are afraid, resentful, worried, don’t like change, in short, perfectly normal and just like everybody else in the world. I just wish they would admit it. I have had many discussions with Spaniards castigating Americans for our horrible racism when they had absolutely no immigration issues. Now that they do, they have some adjusting to do and it will take time.

Comment from Stuart
Time: May 26, 2007, 3:56 pm

I have to say, I wouldn’t have quickly eaten up and left, I would have left immediately without paying, perhaps mentioning why as they protested.

Comment from Ben
Time: May 26, 2007, 4:12 pm

Carl, you hit the nail on the head.

Comment from Edith
Time: May 26, 2007, 4:56 pm

I agree with Carl, and his observations appky to other European countries as well. A couple of years ago, a lunchroom in The Hague gained our headlines by refusing entrance to women wearing a headscarf. I wrote them a polite yet firm letter about this, but I never received a reply.

Personally, I don’t want to frequent an establishment where guests are discriminated against on the basis of their ethnicity. If I had witnessed the conversation mentioned in the Symphony in D blog I would probably have been extremely upset and I would have left the restaurant right away without finishing my meal.

Unfortunately, racism is still alive and well among some people but it would be wrong to label entire countries as being racist. Using the restaurant example to tar the entire Spanish nation with the same brush would be like blaming all Americans for the racist attitudes which still exist in Jena, Louisiana.

Nevertheless, incidents like this are very troubling and it makes me wonder whether racism will ever go away. Europe and America have got a particularly nasty history of racism-related events, but so do countries like Japan (World War II!).

Comment from Frank
Time: May 26, 2007, 9:26 pm

“The Spanish have not dealt with immigration for very long.”
Only since the year 711! The Spanish have not got a very good track record when it comes to dealing with immigrants, be they Arabs, Jews, or whatever. After finally defeating the Arabs, the then proceeded to kick them all out, and Torquemada, despite his grandmother being a converso, a Jew, then took charge of kicking all the Jews out. Well the lucky ones, that weren´t killed. Unlike Ben, I don´t live in Spain, but have visited on dozens of occasions, and I have to say I find Spain quite a racist country.

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: May 26, 2007, 10:15 pm

So Frank, tell us about your racial utopia.

Comment from leftbanker
Time: May 27, 2007, 5:39 pm

I’m just glad that I come from a country (USA) that has never had any sort of racism whatsoever.

I just ran my Microsoft Sarcasm check program and it wants me to delete that last sentence entirely. Racism exists every place where two races coexist. One anecdotal account of racism is hardly justification to condemn an entire nation.

Frank says he finds Spain to be racist. Does he know of any place entirely free of racism? And thanks for your history lesson but Torquemada was 500 years ago. People performed human sacrifices in Mexico 500 years ago but we don’t hold modern Mexicans accountable for that (except in Mel Gibson movies and we all know he’s a racist).

I haven’t found that Spain is overtly racist any more than any other country in which I have either visited or called home. Racism is about ignorance, not national borders. Ignorance is everywhere and must be vanquished.

Comment from Sonia
Time: May 27, 2007, 8:33 pm

As a Black British family living in Spain ,I have to say that we have been somewhat taken aback by the overtly ignorant /racist attitudes in Spain. You only have to look at how some of the Spanish treat their black football players ,to see that racism is alive and well here.
Time will change some attitudes ,but lets not kid ourselves!

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: May 28, 2007, 11:36 am

I have heard that about black footballers in Spain and how some left Spain, despite being under contract with a club in Spain because of the racist treatment they and their families received. The attacks didn’t just come from ultra sur and other skinhead-type groups but from local businesses and the local populace. Is this present in every case where there is footballer of color in Spain? No but once or more times is enough to make mention of it. Spain may have more immigration than before but it still is a fairly homogeneous country and it still has a lot to learn about not only tolerance to difference but embracing diversity.

Comment from Theresa
Time: May 28, 2007, 5:06 pm

I have lived in Spain for over 14 years, and of course there is racism, just like there is racism in any other country and there are rude people all over the world. My husband, who is Spanish, was treated quite badly by some ignorant people because he was “foreign” when he was doing his postdoc in the U.S. I have come across rude people in Portugal, France, England, Holland and Belgium, as well as wonderfully open, tolerant ,well-mannered ones. The two examples given here, while unfortunate, are by no means the attitude of Spaniards in general. Obviously, Spain has much to learn about tolerance, but I think none of us is in a position to cast the first stone.

Comment from John
Time: May 28, 2007, 8:14 pm

My opinion: Everywhere you go, the working class is more racist than the middle class. In Spain, the working class is in general quite racist. The middle class is basically not racist, but racist speech in Spain generally does not cause scandal even among non-racists. Most obvious examples: Racist mocking of black football players is not yet socially unacceptable, nor is the use of words like “moro,” “negrata,” and “sudaca.” Even middle-class people who are generally non-racist tend to dislike gypsies, who are definitely at the bottom of the heap in Spain.

Pingback from Racism in Spain - Further Thoughts - Notes from Spain: Travel, Living in Spain, Podcasts, Forum and Photos
Time: May 29, 2007, 7:33 am

[…] In the previous post on racism in Spain, a couple of sensible comments seemed to suggest that while it is indeed a problem, none of us have the right to be too judgemental: “I think none of us is in a position to cast the first stone,” said Theresa. I couldn’t agree more. […]

Comment from ValenciaSon
Time: May 30, 2007, 12:56 pm

If no one casts the first the stone, racism continues unscathed.

Comment from María Madrid
Time: June 2, 2007, 9:59 pm

Frank said: “The Spanish have not dealt with immigration for very long.”
Only since the year 711! The Spanish have not got a very good track record when it comes to dealing with immigrants.

Well, I don’t think being invaded is the same as immigrate.

I don’t think Americans from Spanish speaking countries considered Spaniards as immigrants when they “moved” there in the XVth century. Do people in Britain think of the vikings as immigrants? Did the Turks immigrate to Greece? No, that was about war not about people peacefully trying to start a more prosperous life in another country.

The fact is Spain immigration has been very very limited until recently. For instance, my father has told me there were lots of Chinese immigrants in Madrid until the beginning of the Civil War but then it was time for the Spaniards to be emigrants for some decades (France, Germany, Switzerland). There were some Filipinno immigrants in the 70’s, political refugees in the 80’s… but it’s the first time Spain is really dealing with immigration.

Maybe everything has happened too fast for some people to adjust to the new situation: so many people moving here in such a short time, no effective immigration policies (if any). On top of that some people are just plain morons…

Comment from morghanne
Time: October 13, 2007, 3:39 am

wwwwwwwwoooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww! i am amazed by this message.

Comment from Jorge
Time: December 20, 2007, 8:28 pm

Well, I don’t know why Spain finds it hard to accept other cultures, especially hispanic countries that are out of South America like the carribean.

No one told their ancestors to have sex with the natives on our respectable islands, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Canary Islands… Etc, Etc. I mean all hispanic people in other countries are descendants from Spaniards because the Spanish language belonged only to that country. Now theres a bunch of countries that speak spanish including most of South America, and we just didn’t learn it from outside sources lol.

So I don’t know about the racism about non-hispanic people, but all hispanic people have one thing in common and that is the language. I never been to Spain but I don’t know how anyone at all could be hypocrital towards their own people.

Comment from Mark
Time: January 19, 2008, 4:32 pm

Hello

All. I seen this post seams to have started way back in May. I found this because am looking to go back to Spain for good.

So I been looking on racism if I can handle it for the rest of my days. Am Black British,
and I have lived in Spain for almost two years up to seven months ago.

I have experienced racism that I have never experienced ever in England. And I have seen things I only read in old American black history books.

Funny though, but an intelligent person knows not everyone is the same, so I met some really nice Spanish people too that made all the difference.

But I have some video shots I took of some events, and I am not talking about Semana Santa because the Spaniards tell me it does not mean KKK and laughed, and some never even heard of em.

But I did go to a festivel where saw a population larger then anything I have ever seen in Nottinghill by a long shot. I did not see a single black face for miles to come, not a single black head in a crowd that looked as big as a football stadium if not bigger.

I did not see a mixed ethinic crowed on the floats, nor any woman (and it was not a gay event), just men in costums and men dressed up as women telling stories in chants and songs.

…and I have to say, though it did not bother me that I would of died that day, I believe in making a difference. But one old woman in front of me did say to me shouting and pointing “Nigga Nigga Nigga Nigga…” on an on and on.

And What more am I supposed to say, I expected more intelligence in the year 2007, so all I said “Mucho Gracias”, she was absolutely shocked, and almost fell backwards and was said something as to ask a question, but I did not know what she said “as I had only been a week in Spain up till then”. So I just left.

To cut a long story short though, when I said “Mucho Gracias” the music stopped playing and the crowed stopped and stared and I heard lots of gasps of shock.

Now its funny because she had four daughters with her, and they smilled at me, in a way and I could see they were not too happy about their mums attitude.

So I went back to my hotel, and went back towards Gibralter and showed my mates, Brits, Giblitarians, Italians, and my other good mate from Greece, and they said to me, “its strange, I never seen a festival like this before neither”.

One person yesterday said I should write a book of some to things I seen, but I said well I was only their for almost two years.

I also had other instances of strange racism, some of my Brits had to back me up because the Guardia Saville Polica seamed a bit trigger happy.

On one other occasion an British lady whom speaks good Spanish caught me in a situation when two Policia Local stopped me in a dark in an empty street, and I it was as if they was looking for some Hill billy action. She said a few words to them that seams to scare them off.

So well, I like to take risks, but I feel sorry for Spain because I know about economics and internation business and what they are about to go through in regards to immigration, it would have been in their best interest if it happened say 70 years ago.

Here is another funny thing the only black people I saw was like immigrants that were selling like CDs and watches.

Well so when I go into a Spanish restuarant I am not surprised the Spanish get confused, they dont know how to take me until I speak.

But they usually know by the way I dress. But after you been in Spain for a while and live there you tend to obviously where the local clothing. So then things just get more complicated, but what the heck, I still prefure the Sun, the lifestyle and the women are truely the most beautiful in the world.

All I can say is buena suerte a España.

Comment from Mark
Time: January 19, 2008, 4:37 pm

Sorry about my above grammar and spelling, I always type in a hurry.