Will anyone smoke in 20 years time?

[Ben]

I think we are all pretty amazed by the smoking ban in many public spaces in Spain, the UK looks set to follow, and things are already pretty tough in the US. Is this the beginning of the end for the cigarette? Will smoking be outlawed completely in the next 20 years? In the West at least?

[Brian]

As long as Tobacco is the biggest money-producing cash crop in the Tobacco states in the US, I'm afraid that there will be smoking.

It amazes me in the States the creativity that smokers have in getting their smokes in. And if they are parents, you can almost guarantee that their children will pick it up.

[ValenciaSon]

Optimistically, I think smoking will be viewed as an archaic practice in the more developed countries as the tobacco industry continues to shift its target to the lesser developed nations.

Realistically, this won't happen overnight or maybe even in just a couple of decades but one can hope.

[Brian]

Optimistically, I think smoking will be viewed as an archaic practice in the more developed countries as the tobacco industry continues to shift its target to the lesser developed nations.

Realistically, this won't happen overnight or maybe even in just a couple of decades but one can hope.

I hope that you're right. I'm not being pessimistic, but I did grow up in one of the tobacco states, so I realize how ingrained it is in the culture.

[guapo]

I spend a lot of time in Italy which introduced a smoking ban for bars and restaurants last year. On the positive side, I think the ban has helped people who were already thinking about giving up. However, I still see a huge number of kids smoking (particularly girls) so I don't think the tobacco companies will be shutting up shop any time soon....

[cubix]

It just amazes me that people to this day still smoke, and that teens start smoking.

I guess I can understand the addiction and how hard it is to quit, but I know kids who start smoking in high school. You'd think with all the anti-tobbacoo, drugs, and alcohol classes and education shoved down our throats that we would avoid the stuff(atleast they in the EEUU)

[Davood]

I think cigarets are useless things and I never use it at all, but I think thek smoks will continue in the world because there are a lot of money in this bussineshttp://qsmile.com/qsimages/294.gif

[pablo]

Here in SF smoking is even banned in most outdoor places, including parks, public squares, and piers. The smoking ban in bars and restaurants happened years ago. Furthermore, there is considerable social pressure / antagonism against smokers with not-so-furtive dirty looks, fake coughing, and comments. Still, I know quite a few smokers. Not nearly as many as when I lived in other states where bans were more recent and not so pervasive, and the social climate more tolerant, but there are plenty of smokers here. I think it will be much longer than 20 years before it dies out, if it ever does.

[Ben]

So where do people smoke in San Francisco? Only in their own homes? It's funny how fast the world changes sometimes - until recently the Malboro smoking cowboy was inseperable from the image of American cool...

[pablo]

So where do people smoke in San Francisco? Only in their own homes?

I don't know anyone who smokes in their homes, but I do know people who smoke on their balconies at home. I think even that is illegal because of how close together properties are here, but very difficult to enforce. I have a neighbor who likes to smoke cigars , and I have to close my window when he does or my whole house smells of it. Pues nada, when I see people smoking, it's normally in their cars or on the sidewalks. I think technically it is illegal ($100 fine first offense, $200 second, and up) to smoke within a certain distance of the entrance to a bar or restaurant, but they do it. In short, my guess is that most smokers now regularly break the law :).

[Edith]

I think we are all pretty amazed by the smoking ban in many public spaces in Spain, the UK looks set to follow, and things are already pretty tough in the US. Is this the beginning of the end for the cigarette? Will smoking be outlawed completely in the next 20 years? In the West at least?

Let's hope so! I've got asthma and after a lifetime of inhaling second-hand smoke from other people, I think enough is enough...!!! :smug: My parents smoked (especially my father) but I never picked up the habit. None of my friends smoke and I don't allow smoking in my apartment. Unfortunately, Holland is still a nation of smokers and even though smoking has been banned in the workplace (thank goodness) you can't go to a restaurant or a bar without being exposed to those obnoxious fumes! Even though everyone knows how dangerous smoking is, lots of young people still pick up the habit. Smokers often do not seem to realize what kind of impact their habit may have on other people, especially those with breathing difficulties. Small children in the vicinity of smokers are also at risk because they might develop all kinds of problems such as middle ear infection. How can we persuade youngsters that smoking is not cool?

[guapo]

I remember working in The Netherlands a few years back when they first introduced those "shock" messages that cover half the the cigarette package.

My dutch colleague took me to see the smoking room where they had collected all the variations of the messages and stuck the packets on the wall to create a display. It was like a large stamp collection and they were very proud of it. So my guess is that smoking will not disappear for some time there...

[Edith]

I remember working in The Netherlands a few years back when they first introduced those "shock" messages that cover half the the cigarette package.

My dutch colleague took me to see the smoking room where they had collected all the variations of the messages and stuck the packets on the wall to create a display. It was like a large stamp collection and they were very proud of it. So my guess is that smoking will not disappear for some time there...


In Holland, many people roll their own fags to save money and one particular kind of tobacco is called zware shag. A friend of mine says it smells like wet monkey hair. ;D


http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:YvSZ_OFmOsMjrM:www.user.cityline.ru/~jugas/tobacco/maschzw.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.user.cityline.ru/~jugas/tobacco/maschzw.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.user.cityline.ru/~jugas/tobacco/cigtob.htm&h=160&w=300&sz=19&tbnid=YvSZ_OFmOsMjrM:&tbnh=59&tbnw=111&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dzware%2Bshag%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%2 6lr%3D%26sa%3DN)

[Brian]

A friend of mine says it smells like wet monkey hair. ;D



Thank heavens we don't have to smell THAT! ;)

[Edith]

Thank heavens we don't have to smell THAT! ;)

;D ;D ;D

[greytop]

In Holland, many people roll their own fags to save money and one particular kind of tobacco is called zware shag. A friend of mine says it smells like wet monkey hair. ;D

I remember a pipe smoker who used Dutch tobacco that smelt like vanilla. That´s about the only one I can think of that was not too unpleasant (& I'm an ex smoker) It probably did as much harm however - just a more pleasant way to die!
Around the part of Spain where I live the Spanish ban has had little effect on the local bars which all seem to fall into the <100 sq. metre category and all continue to allow smoking (presumably to stop their customers leaving)
There was an article in the press the other day which seems to suggest the Valencian parliament are to try to modify the law to allow temporary partitions in places >100 sq. metres and other forms of air purification. Some of the older properties in cities used as restaurants etc. are almost impossible to modify to meet the law which requires solid walls.
Smoking in the streets continues unabated.

[Marbella]

In Holland, many people roll their own fags to save money and one particular kind of tobacco is called zware shag. A friend of mine says it smells like wet monkey hair.


I don't know what wet monkey hair smells like.

Do you think there might be a lot of hype around the dangers of passive smoking? As a non-smoker (never have) I'd prefer not to have to breathe cigarette smoke but there are far more objectionable smells and dangers we face each day without much complaint. If I go to a pub or bar I expect that there will be people smoking; so I do have a choice.

Perhaps the worry about passive smoking is more detrimental to health than passive smoking itself. I do speak as someone whose mother smoked throughout pregnancy and in our house during my childhood and apart from a funny shaped head, huge bulging eyes and a rasping cough I'm perfectly normal.

Look, relax, we don't even need to eat our veg now:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1791200,00.html

[Edith]

I don't know what wet monkey hair smells like.

Do you think there might be a lot of hype around the dangers of passive smoking? As a non-smoker (never have) I'd prefer not to have to breathe cigarette smoke but there are far more objectionable smells and dangers we face each day without much complaint. If I go to a pub or bar I expect that there will be people smoking; so I do have a choice.

Perhaps the worry about passive smoking is more detrimental to health than passive smoking itself. I do speak as someone whose mother smoked throughout pregnancy and in our house during my childhood and apart from a funny shaped head, huge bulging eyes and a rasping cough I'm perfectly normal.

Look, relax, we don't even need to eat our veg now:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1791200,00.html

I've got asthma

[Edith]

I remember a pipe smoker who used Dutch tobacco that smelt like vanilla. That´s about the only one I can think of that was not too unpleasant (& I'm an ex smoker) It probably did as much harm however - just a more pleasant way to die!
Around the part of Spain where I live the Spanish ban has had little effect on the local bars which all seem to fall into the <100 sq. metre category and all continue to allow smoking (presumably to stop their customers leaving)
There was an article in the press the other day which seems to suggest the Valencian parliament are to try to modify the law to allow temporary partitions in places >100 sq. metres and other forms of air purification. Some of the older properties in cities used as restaurants etc. are almost impossible to modify to meet the law which requires solid walls.
Smoking in the streets continues unabated.

I know the vanilla smell; actually it's a lot less unpleasant than cigarette smoke. But most people in Holland have quit smoking pipes. IMO, cigars are even worse than cigarettes.

An acquaintance of mine, who lives in Los Angeles, told me the bar on smoking in California bars had very little effect on the number of visitors, because the smokers were replaced by non-smokers (or because the smokers quit smoking).

[simonb]

Speaking as a monkey, wet hair is not that unpleasant!

[Brian]

Speaking as a monkey, wet hair is not that unpleasant!

rofl ;D

[Edith]

Speaking as a monkey, wet hair is not that unpleasant!

;D ;D ;D :p

[greytop]

Speaking as a monkey, wet hair is not that unpleasant!
But very hard to light?

[Polly]

Before I travelled there, I had read in several places how Spaniards smoked everywhere - like chimneys - how smoking bans in Madrid were scoffed at and outright ignored, most of the time. These articles were so adamant about the profuse smoking habits of Spanish citizens, that I had visualized clouds of blue-grey smoke hanging over everyone's heads!

Imagine my surprise when I got there, and saw nary a smoker in public. No - infact, the few smokers I did see were very much like the furitive puffers here in the US - who are banished in groups of two or three to the outdoors, the corners of bars, or casino gaming floors - isolated and alone in their addictive predilictions.

I believe the public smoking ban is true for the entire state of California - not just SF... has been for about 6-7 years now. Although there are still designated smoking areas in the "open air" - behind buildings, bars & restaurants and other private property, though clearly prohibited on public streets.

Utah has always had a ban on public smoking. Even back when you could still smoke in airplanes (and that's going back some!) they had a smoking ban in the air space over the state. Doesn't hurt that 80% of the population (including a majority of its lawmakers) in that state are Mormon, and smoking is prohibited by the religion.

Wisconsin, where I live, is slowly adopting full public smoking bans -- but so far outside of government buildings, it isn't a state-wide initiative, but instead, up to the individual municipality (city or township) on whether to impose full ban s in restaurants, bars, and other pubic gathering places.

Frankly, as a long-time smoker, (started as a teenager) who has had one heck of a time quitting (I'm on again, off again depending on the week) - I appreciate ANY and ALL smoking bans -- because it means far fewer opportunities for me to indulge in this expensive, nasty, smelly, and dangerous addiction. The tougher you can make it on me to smoke, the better it is - for me, and everyone else.:thumbs-up:

[Edith]

Hi Polly,

< The tougher you can make it on me to smoke, the better it is - for me, and everyone else >

This is really a class act, thanks for posting. Perhaps you will be able to quit smoking altogether one day. Keep on trying and remember: there is so much you can do with all that extra money you don't spend on cigarettes! Buying a CD, a book, a bottle of quality wine, treating yourself on a new pair of shoes, etc. :) Both my parents died from cancer and in my father's case it was a direct result of his nicotine addiction. Kicking the habit is always difficult, whether it's smoking or something else doesn't matter. My vice is eating too many snacks like cheese, tapas-like things, pastries, pasta, ice cream, etc., and I have discovered that going to the gym once in a while may actually help to reduce those cravings. Andale pues, you can do it!!! :thumbs-up: :thumbs-up: :thumbs-up:

[Polly]

Lol. Thanks Edith.

Actually I'm at the gym 4-5 days per week, and in or on the water, every day (avid swimmer / kyack-er). It's REALLY hard to light up when you're in the water, or on a boat, in't it? (c:

The trouble is -- I like to smoke in the car, on my way to and from the gym! BLECH!!!
Evenings by the computer are another trigger time.

Food: well, that's another "addiction" :blush: that's why so much exercise -- keeps me ahead as I can get of much temptation !

Yes -- it's the old - two parents smoking that started it. Actually , both parents and one grandparent who lived next door. Out of six siblings THREE of us are cigarette smokers. A fourth is a cigar smoker and chewing tobacco user. Dear old dad died of throat cancer -- mother still puffs away. I quit for a week, a month, two months -- then find myself back in the habit, hating it all the while.

That's why I fight it every single day...and will champion any cause that makes it tougher (for me) to smoke.

Never quit quitting -- that's what they say, isn't it? ;)

[Edith]

All I can say is: keep on trying and promise yourself something really nice if you succeed! Ever tried acupuncture or nicotine plasters? All this wonderful Spanish food will taste so much better once you have quit! :D

[lumpsuckerpig]

I have never been a smoker and in my 46 years of life have always found it to be a very unpleasant habit. Smoking killed my father, hard to prove, but the fact his heart and lungs were shot at by a lifetime of smoking must have had a big part in it. My mother is not too well either, smoking related illness also, and struggles to breathe properly. Curiously, last year, I think it was last year, a smoking ban was introduced in Ireland. (Correct me if I'm wrong here), and I was on holiday in the resort of Santa Ponsa in Mallorca which is very popular with the Irish people, there are loads of them there. My wife and I would normally go out to a restaurant for an evening meal and then visit a few bars for a couple of drinks. It didn't occur to me at first, but there was hardly anyone smoking in the bars. I then realised that the vast majority of people in those bars were Irish and apparrently they must have sub-consiously been carrying on the Irish smoking ban in their bars over in Mallorca. It was great to breathe clean air. Interestingly, I was reading an article in the newspaper yesterday regarding 'Green shares' on the investment markets. The conclusion was that it was still more profitable to invest in shares from companies whose activities were bad for the environment and public health, such as tobacco companies, than it was to invest in companies whose activities were good for the environment and health.

[Marbella]

Did anyone see this story yesterday? European employers are free to refuse a job to smokers, in fact, one Irish company placed a job ad that stated 'smokers need not apply' and this is entirely within the law.

"EU anti-discrimination law prohibits discrimination on the grounds of racial or ethnic origen, disability, age, sexual orientation and religion" BUT discriminating against smokers does not fall under any prohibited grounds.

This is dangerous territory isn't it? I can immediately think of a couple of quite brilliant people who enjoy a cigarette but would be excluded on this basis. If smoking is an addiction is it fair to discriminate?

[Marbella]

And now this. An actor cannot smoke as part of a live performance in Scotland!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5252054.stm

[Catica]

So where do people smoke in San Francisco? Only in their own homes? It's funny how fast the world changes sometimes - until recently the Malboro smoking cowboy was inseperable from the image of American cool...

There is actually a decent American film called Thank You For Smoking (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/thankyouforsmoking/) that you might enjoy. Basically, the Marlboro Man got lung cancer!

There was a predicted decline in San Francisco's nightlife, but what ultimately happened was that the smoking ban meant now even more people could go out at night. Smokers at work, what few are left, take breaks and go outside to smoke.

Most smokers I know don't even smoke in their own homes, believe it or not. They'll go outside.

I see two benefits to smoking: a) you get to take a lot more breaks at work and b) it is a fantastic conversation tool. Can't think of just the right word to express yourself? Take a drag on your cigarette - the internationally accepted sign of "Hold on, I'm going to say something important" - and you will still have the floor. I much liked this when I was living in Prague. Everyone smoked in all the cafes, and everyone was incredibly interesting, too. I still never took it up, though. I just learned to talk faster. :)

[Edith]

I much liked this when I was living in Prague. Everyone smoked in all the cafes, and everyone was incredibly interesting, too.

:eek:

You mean people become more interesting because they smoke? :confused:

Eastern and Central Europe are probably the last bastions of mass tobacco addiction... and what I really don't get is the fact that the Germans, who tend to be very involved with environmental issues, don't mind inhaling heavily polluted, carcinogenic particles in their own homes and offices. And then there is the unwholesome stench of nicotine-stained clothing, skin and hair.

* stepping off soap box * ;)

[Catica]

:eek:

You mean people become more interesting because they smoke? :confused:


Come to think of it, there were more than a few pints of beer on the table as well. :rolleyes:

Eastern and Central Europe are probably the last bastions of mass tobacco addiction... and what I really don't get is the fact that the Germans, who tend to be very involved with environmental issues, don't mind inhaling heavily polluted, carcinogenic particles in their own homes and offices. And then there is the unwholesome stench of nicotine-stained clothing, skin and hair.

I think smoking is terrible and I truly have no idea why people do it or why they fight so much for their right to do it. My mother is one of these people. She feels the smoking bans are discriminatory to smokers. And I say, yes, exactly. ;)

[Edith]

Come to think of it, there were more than a few pints of beer on the table as well. :rolleyes:


I think smoking is terrible and I truly have no idea why people do it or why they fight so much for their right to do it. My mother is one of these people. She feels the smoking bans are discriminatory to smokers. And I say, yes, exactly. ;)

Once I talked to a Native American elder and he told me that in the old days, Indians used tobacco mainly for ceremonial purposes (tobacco is a Native American cultivar). Ironically, Native Americans were not able to handle alcohol and the Europeans were not able to handle tobacco...

[greytop]

Thought this (http://actualidad.terra.es/provincias/valladolid/articulo/establecimientos_disponen_maquinas_nuevas_mando_11 11869.htm) was an interesting way of limiting availability of cigarettes to under 18's.
It is a remote control for cigarette machines!
It puts the onus for control back on the bar staff whereas now kids simply walk in off the street, put their money in and take the ciggies.

[Ashley]

I never understood how cigarette machines could be legal when any kid could use them to buy cigarettes without id. If there have to be cigarettes in the first place, the remote control idea is a pretty good one, as long as bar staff actually check for proof of age.

[Flexichick]

Thank You for Smoking was very good. Of course, I don't mind looking at Aaron Eckhart for a few hours ;)

We have had a smoking ban in NYC for several years. It started with a huge outcry and bar/restaurant owners swearing they'd all have to shut down due to lost business, but I can't see that it truly has hurt them that much.

I'm thrilled not to come home and have smoke in my hair, on my clothes, etc. Whenever I travel I remember how glad again.

Then again, I'm 39, so I remember when movie theatres and airplanes both had smoking sections (as if the air is really going anywhere!)

[Cynthia]

Then again, I'm 39, so I remember when movie theatres and airplanes both had smoking sections (as if the air is really going anywhere!)

I wonder when New York State banned smoking in state buildings... My (public SUNY) university was built in the 1960's and it actually has ashtrays built into the walls in the hallways! :o (For whatever reason, they haven't removed them yet. Perhaps it's wishful thinking on the part of the maintenance department...?)

As a perpetual quitter, I actually appreciate that I'm not allowed to smoke in bars and restaurants (or indoors anywhere, really) because it creates some strong negative incentives for me to cut down if I have to go outside to smoke when it's 10 degrees Fahrenheit! Hopefully, one day, those negative incentives will build up enough for me to quit for good... Between that and the price of cigarettes, and of course the health implications, the costs of smoking should far outweigh the benefit I get from feeding the addiction by now. But, alas, I remain a weak-willed smoker (for the time being--as I mentioned, I'm perpetually trying to quit, and one day I actually will!)

[Flexichick]

I used to smoke 2 packs a day (3 packs if I was out with friends/at bars, etc.). I quit cold turkey ....before the days of the patch and the gum, etc.

It was U-G-L-Y. I had to keep myself away from people for a while because I was not fit for socializing.

It finally got better and I can say now that it was both one of the hardest and one of the best things I ever did. Then again, if I could be a casual smoker (like my friends who can smoke just a few times a year), I would.

I still remember when and where I was when I quit - on Nov. 6, 1990 at 6:45PM. Almost 16 years ago ;D ;D ;D

[SimonS]

Some pretty funny responses have gone past before I got to see this but more seriously, sitting in the UK, this is the way I see it:


The USA was probably seen as the smoking capital of the world once but this is also where the public smoking ban initiatives seem to have started.
In the UK&I, we usually end up adopting anything North American in the end and the smoking bans in public places are no exception.
In Ireland, amazingly, it was the first place that they introduced a total ban on smoking in pubs, a couple of years ago. Scotland seems to be following suit an this is the trend in the rest of the UK.
Despite the bans (or more probably because of them) more teenagers seem to be smoking than ever before.
My view is that if the trends continue, the bans will utlimately lead to less people smoking (probably a good thing for society as a whole).When I have been to the US in the last few years, it has mostly been to SF and the Bay area where - as commented above - you don't see people smoking in public. However, I recently went to Richmond Virginia, a town with an industrial past, and noticed a lot of people smoking in the streets and in bars and thought it was strange. Then I realised that Richmond had been (or still is) the capital of the tobacco industry in the US, duhhh.:p

[omeyas]

I remember the big protests when smoking in bars/restaurants in Spain was announced, and I said to my wife, it'll probably be like most Spanish laws, they'll never be enforced! We have just come back, and I pointed out to my wife in every bar we went into, everyone permitted smoking. We never saw a bar that had banned it. :)

[greytop]

I remember the big protests when smoking in bars/restaurants in Spain was announced, and I said to my wife, it'll probably be like most Spanish laws, they'll never be enforced! We have just come back, and I pointed out to my wife in every bar we went into, everyone permitted smoking. We never saw a bar that had banned it. :)
That's the way it seems round here too. They have made a mistake by allowing bars under 100 sq.m to choose, so of course no-one wants to be first or their customers will go down the road.
I think it has been more effective in larger establishments like bingo halls, discos etc - but I don't use those so not sure.
There is also a lot of debate round the Valencian region as to how to implement the law. The original idea was for a solid wall to separate smokers/non-smokers but the bar and restaurant trade want to use filters etc. You can see their point when they are in an older building, many of which are unsuited to building new walls.
So the "changeover" period seems to have stretched whilst they sort that out between Valencia and Madrid.
I think what the Irish did was more effective a sthere was no room for manoeuvre.

[gary]

All the bars were no-smoking in the Costa del Sol, but it wasnt a problem - if you wanted to smoke you could do so at a table outside. This immediately blurs the line as with some bars 'outside' is contained between folding glass shutters and a canopy roof and I imagine the line wont get any sharper with time....

I have to say that I dont notice so many people smoking these days in bars in England

[omeyas]

I think what the Irish did was more effective a sthere was no room for manoeuvre.

Agree. The Spanish will make all sorts of excuses for not implementing it, but when it was introduced in Ireland (and when it is in England,Wales etc), there are no excuses, no exceptions. Spain also has very similar laws to UK as regards drinking and driving, traffic offences, wearing of crash helmets, etc, the difference being that in Spain, they are rarely enforced.:)

[omeyas]

All the bars were no-smoking in the Costa del Sol,

That´s an area I try to avoid! :) That still surprises me though, as most of the ones we went into had a sign proudly announcing "Aquí se puede fumar"

[Edith]

Spain also has very similar laws to UK as regards drinking and driving, traffic offences, wearing of crash helmets, etc, the difference being that in Spain, they are rarely enforced.:)

Which is why there are so many serious traffic accidents in Spain, more than in northern Europe. A twenty-year old youth who sustains severe brain damage in a motorcycle accident may have to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair or worse. This is hardly a laughing matter. I believe most of these laws are implemented with a purpose, i.e. to protect the people from themselves.

[Brian]

Which is why there are so many serious traffic accidents in Spain, more than in northern Europe. A twenty-year old youth who sustains severe brain damage in a motorcycle accident may have to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair or worse. This is hardly a laughing matter. I believe most of these laws are implemented with a purpose, i.e. to protect the people from themselves.

A lack of enforcement surprises me greatly, given the new carnet a puntos system.

[Edith]

A lack of enforcement surprises me greatly, given the new carnet a puntos system.

True. Perhaps Ben or Marina know some more about this.

[omeyas]

Which is why there are so many serious traffic accidents in Spain, more than in northern Europe. A twenty-year old youth who sustains severe brain damage in a motorcycle accident may have to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair or worse. This is hardly a laughing matter. I believe most of these laws are implemented with a purpose, i.e. to protect the people from themselves.

It wasn't meant to be a laughing matter, far from it! The emoticon was to indicate the complete indifference of the local police in these matters. They fail to take it seriously at all, it all seems a big joke to them. I think you have read my post completely the wrong way, my whole point was that they pass laws, but patently fail to implement them, which goes some way to explaining why the number of road deaths in Spain (third highest in Europe after Portugal and Greece) is two or three times of that in UK.(the lowest in Europe). In Spain, nobody thinks twice about having a drink and jumping in the car to drive home, as they know fair well their chances of being stopped are very remote. It may be different in places like Madrid, but certainly in Andalucia, "la polic&#237;a brilla por su asusencia"

[richardksa]

Apparently the number of deaths halved after the introduction of the points system, so that does seem to work.

Be that as it may, I like a fag with my coffee (US readers please check your OEDs) and feel that are enough cafés in Madrid to accomodate non-smokers and smokers alike.

[Brian]

Apparently the number of deaths halved after the introduction of the points system, so that does seem to work.



That's quite remarkable.

[richardksa]

That was in July, the first month they introduced it. They compared July 05 and 06 and the figures were quite dramatic. Apparently on the day of it's introduction five drivers lost their licences.