Racismo

[Laguiri]

Obviously a very sensitive topic for people. I have to say I was quite surprised by some peoples attitudes in Spain. (I lived there a year) I'm from Canada, which is one of the most multicultural countries in the world, and we are very well adjusted to immigration and people of other cultures. I found however in Spain that there is definately a significant section of the population with bias. Clearly not everyone, by any means, but I ran into it often enough to really take note of it. I'm sure most people already know about what's happened with futbol in Spain and racismo. There is also a program there called Humor Amarillo which I find quite offensive. Asian peoples in Spain are usually refered to as chinos, despite the fact they're japoneses or vietnamitas o lo que sea. Este racismo hacia personas me choco muchisimo porque pensaba que Espana era un pais muy progresivo. Oi muchas veces quejas sobre los gitanos, que son unos vagos etcetera...La cosa es que los espanoles no quieren reconocer este racismo ya que se ven muy progresivos. Siempre hablan del racismo de EEUU pero nunca del racismo que sigue en su propio pais. No se ve nunca una minoridad en la tele. Entiendo que mucha gente se pone nerviosa con toda la inmigracion que va occurriendo alli que no estan acostumbrados, pero me parece que el problema es que no quieren reconocer esto. Antes de vivir en Espana me parecia que habia mucho machismo lo cual no halle, sino este racismo que no esperaba. Esto lo digo por mi experiencia personal. Que os opinais? Did I just have the chance to run into these particular people with biases?

[ValenciaSon]

I have heard of some professional football players of color complain of the treatment they receive in some locations in Spain, while playing. I think a large part of that comes from those extremist groups whose names I forget but are sort of Spain's contigent of the skinheads and other such ultranationalists who want a "pure" Spain. I wouldn't say that fairly characterizes what Spain is like as a whole as I've also heard that other footballers of color like Rodinho love it in Spain and has moved his family from Brazil to live in Barcelona permanently.

As an American,I definitely can't tell you what it's like to live in a country without racism. But then again, who can?

[Flexichick]

I'm curious about what your race/ethnicity is and what specifically you encountered in Spain.

I live in NYC, which obviously is a very culturally diverse area.

One thing I noticed in Spain (granted, my exposure is mostly to caucasians in Spain who are 30-50 years old) is that they seem to be a lot less politically correct. They often use "labels" and stereotypes that we would find a bit offensive in North America (not that we aren't guilty of thinking them here, you're just less likely to hear them out loud). However, I don't think this just applies to race/ethnicity/stereotypes as my friends in Madrid would be quick to tell me if I was getting "fat", or if something I was wearing was "ugly" or if I looked "like crap" that day.

I'm used to being very direct, but even still, some of the things I find in Spain still take me by surprise sometimes.

[ValenciaSon]

Flexichick, are you asking me about my race/ethnicity?

Isn't it obvious?


I'M SCANDINAVIAN!:rolleyes:

But you can call me Jose

[Flexichick]

Not asking you, Valencia, am asking Laguiri!

[Brian]

As long as there are humans, there will be racism, unfortunately.

José --- sounds quite Scandinavian to me! ;)

[parubin]

Racism is everywhere and the most racist people are just the ones that deny by all means they are ethnically biased.

Racism is a disease that occurs in all ethnic groups, even among those who are racially discriminated.

It is true that in Spain, political correctness is not as acute as in the US, and most people would just refer to Asians as 'Chinos' without neccesarily having to have a negative significance.

I couldn´t tell if in Spain there is more of a racist attitude as in any other country of Europe, or the US.

One other thing has to be taken into consideration. The inmigration inflow in the last decade in Spain has been tremendous, about the biggest in the world. Until the mid nineties Spain was the most homogeneous ethnic country in all of the western world, now one out of every ten people living in Spain were born abroad and almost 20% of the newborns in Spain have inmigrant parents.

The advantages of multiculturalism are obvious, and I think an ethnic diverse society is a richer one, but some problems have also arosen, and it is particulary dodgy to point them out, but in the end some people are liable to simplify the diagnosis of the problems of a complex society by labeling people in ethnic groups, which is just the root of racism.

[richardksa]

One thing I noticed in Spain (granted, my exposure is mostly to caucasians in Spain who are 30-50 years old) is that they seem to be a lot less politically correct. They often use "labels" and stereotypes that we would find a bit offensive in North America (not that we aren't guilty of thinking them here, you're just less likely to hear them out loud). However, I don't think this just applies to race/ethnicity/stereotypes as my friends in Madrid would be quick to tell me if I was getting "fat", or if something I was wearing was "ugly" or if I looked "like crap" that day.

While deploring racism of any kind I say bravo to those who do not pander to this contemporary madness we call "political correctness". In fact in my experience, the use of pc euphemisms just makes things worse. It seems their users are hiding their real feelings. Far better to call a spade a spade.

Mind you, I do not advocate that sort of "home truth" bluntness that tends to downright rudeness. However, as a weight enhanced, vertically challanged, silver haired wrinkly I do not see why I can't be short, fat and getting on a bit, which is the truth of the matter. (Though I'm seriously doing something about the weight bit!)

The arabs with whom I work address anyone they can't remember the name of by the nationality. It is not uncommon to hear, "Hey! Paki, Filipini, Malti" when they wish to attract someone's attention. "Asian" in the UK refers to someone from India or Pakistan. If someone is black, brown, yellow or pink why is it worse to describe them as such then tall, short or hunchbacked?

[Edith]

As an American,I definitely can't tell you what it's like to live in a country without racism. But then again, who can?

Real racists (the ones who believe in racial purity and who believe there is a connection between pigmentation and intelligence) can be found anywhere.

Last week, a white supremacist on a Dutch discussion board said I didn't have the right to call myself Dutch because of my appearance (he had found my picture on Flickr, the same avatar I use here). Some people are just full off ****.

[Edith]

While deploring racism of any kind I say bravo to those who do not pander to this contemporary madness we call "political correctness". In fact in my experience, the use of pc euphemisms just makes things worse. It seems their users are hiding their real feelings.


You've got a point there.

[Brian]

Real racists (the ones who believe in racial purity and who believe there is a connection between pigmentation and intelligence) can be found anywhere.

Last week, a white supremacist on a Dutch discussion board said I didn't have the right to call myself Dutch because of my appearance (he had found my picture on Flickr, the same avatar I use here). Some people are just full off ****.

Wow, that's horrible. Perhaps he might be a bit surprised if he had a DNA test- he might find a few drops in his gene pool to be unsettling. >:D

[richardksa]

Last week, a white supremacist on a Dutch discussion board said I didn't have the right to call myself Dutch because of my appearance (he had found my picture on Flickr, the same avatar I use here). Some people are just full off ****.

You should have been wearing clogs and standing in front of a windmill. That's how I aways tell a dutch person.:rolleyes: Er, what is a real dutch person meant to look like then?

[Brian]

You should have been wearing clogs and standing in front of a windmill. That's how I aways tell a dutch person. Er, what is a real dutch person meant to look like then?

Argh! The stereotypes!!!!! Pure racism!!!! So politically incorrect!!! ;D ;) ;D

[Flexichick]

You should have been wearing clogs and standing in front of a windmill. That's how I aways tell a dutch person.:rolleyes: Er, what is a real dutch person meant to look like then?


Better clogs than these things (crocs). Have you guys been seeing them around? They're all over the US and supposed to be super-comfortable, but I don't think these things belong in public (unless you happen to be gardening in public).


http://shop.crocs.com/pc-15-4-beach.aspx?reqid=15&reqProdTypeId=41p&subsectionname=footwear&section=products


Signed,
Flexichick (a "white girl" who now prefers to be called "pigment challenged" ;D ).

[Edith]

Wow, that's horrible. Perhaps he might be a bit surprised if he had a DNA test- he might find a few drops in his gene pool to be unsettling. >:D

Methinks so too! :D

[Edith]

You should have been wearing clogs and standing in front of a windmill. That's how I aways tell a dutch person.:rolleyes:

;D ;D ;D ;)

@ Flexichick

Better clogs than these things (crocs). Have you guys been seeing them around? They're all over the US and supposed to be super-comfortable, but I don't think these things belong in public

Arrgh they are ugly! :-)

[omeyas]

Better clogs than these things (crocs).

They sell them here in UK too, I fail to see the attraction! All right for on the beach I suppose, but they hardly look the height of fashion, do they? :)

[Ashley]

;D ;D ;D ;)

@ Flexichick



Arrgh they are ugly! :-)


But sooo comfortable! Walk a mile in a pair of crocs and you'll see why people wear them, regardless of appearance. I sported a hot pink pair all summer, but no matter how comfy, I just can't bring myself to go for the crocs with socks look.

They also float, which I'm sure will come in handy one day...

[Edith]

But sooo comfortable! Walk a mile in a pair of crocs and you'll see why people wear them, regardless of appearance. I sported a hot pink pair all summer, but no matter how comfy, I just can't bring myself to go for the crocs with socks look.

They also float, which I'm sure will come in handy one day...

LOL, they are way too rubbery and sweaty for me, viva las sandalías! :D



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/tetabiakti/Trekkingsandals.jpg

Anyway, at the beginning of this thread we were talking about racism in Spain. Is it really that bad compared to other countries, including Canada? I mean, how about Native Americans (First Nations) in Canada for instance, I remember the Oka crisis which started about sixteen years ago when Mohawks and French Canadians clashed in Québec... there were some ugly incidents over a golf course, including effigy-burning of 'Mohawks' by angry whites. Holland has got its share of racism - and a questionable colonial past - and so do other countries IMO. What else is new? In their New World colonies, the Spanish and Portuguese intermarried with natives and Africans, something which the Dutch and the British hardly ever did. It's true the colonies in Latin America were pigmentocracies too, but these rules were not as rigidly enforced as in the north. Spanish and Portuguese colonial societies in the New World were racist to be sure, but the infamous 'one-drop rule' never existed over there.

[Andy Woolley]

I watch football in Spain quite a lot and there is definitely more overt racism than in Britain. This has not been helped by some utterances by Luis Aragoneses the national team manager.

I support Tenerife and a few years ago we had two South African international players in our team who are black and they got some racist abuse even from the home fans. However, these days the main group of supporters the "Frente Blanquiazul" to which I belong proclaims itself proudly antifacist and antiracist unlike many of the "ultra groups" that exist at even the top clubs in Spain.

The first attached photo is of a large banner displayed at one of our home games. There are often other hand held ones like the one shown.

[Steve W]

I have definitely heard the casual use of labels such as Paki here, mainly referring to the late night shops that are often run by people from Asia. Very much like being in the UK 25+ years ago.

The most shocking racism that I have witnessed here was a Falla sculpture in Valencia of a obscenely caricatured black African immigrant, supposedly destroying Europe by his very presence. This was in one of the smaller, local Fallas near to where I was staying.

I do think that Spain is going through the process of immigration that a lot of other countries such as the UK have passed through many years ago. There are not many second generation immigrant communities here yet. Maybe just the Latin American ones, in some cases.

I find it very odd to see skinheads walking around my neighbourhood, dressed exactly like their English equivalents of the 70s and 80s.

[deecree]

Wow, that's horrible. Perhaps he might be a bit surprised if he had a DNA test- he might find a few drops in his gene pool to be unsettling. >:D


In the UK some time ago there was a TV programme about a few different people looking into the details of their genetics. One of the expert gene-tracing scientists, while telling an anglo-looking Estadounidense male he had numerous African-origin genes, said that a figure of around 75%(I don't remember exactly) of white Americans are also of part-African descent, more-so in the southern states. :)

[deecree]

Racism is no more or no less silly that the various other ism's that humans develop and perpetrate by labelling those who are different from them and then acting upon those with that label, be it to discriminate, declare war on or convert.

Tribalism is alive and well. It is engrained on our psyche, even in those of us who do our very best to try and control it with logic and sense, even in us it dictates the vast majority of our decisions whether we notice or not.

[Brian]

Tribalism is alive and well. It is engrained on our psyche, even in those of us who do our very best to try and control it with logic and sense, even in us it dictates the vast majority of our decisions whether we notice or not.

Unfortunately, logic and sense go out the door when it comes to dealing with racism.

Racism shows its ugly head because of a fear of the unknown culture, norms, and living habits of other people groups. Educated people learn to accept the differences (so long as they aren't committing crimes against humanity), while uneducated people feel threatened by them.

[ValenciaSon]

Not that I condone racism but I think that with societies that were otherwise homogenous, there is a learning curve to co-existing with other cultures and Spain has been fairly homogenous up until recently. Look at the US. How long have we've been this "boiling pot" of diversity and yet we still struggle with racism.

[Brian]

Not that I condone racism but I think that with societies that were otherwise homogenous, there is a learning curve to co-existing with other cultures and Spain has been fairly homogenous up until recently. Look at the US. How long have we've been this "boiling pot" of diversity and yet we still struggle with racism.

This is true. Have we progressed? It's pretty obvious that the Americian racism of the new century is toward anyone of Arabic origin.

[teapotmonk]

Where isnt it? I was born in ¨multi-cultural ¨London and lived thru years of intense racial disharmony - partly why I left in the end. Bit of myth the cosmopolitan nature - I always felt. Soon found it again anyway - on the streets of Toledo living amongst the Portuguese gitanos who suffered continuously at the hands of the green wax jacket brigade. Its everywhere, look around you and you will see it, hear it smell it. Spain just doesnt tuck it out of sight so well as other places. Not sure it thats a good or bad thing.

[Andy Woolley]

Racism is always a bad thing.

No debate, no argument - hating people because of what they were born is wrong.

So if Spain is up front about it that is the sign of an immature society (or one which still has ultra right leanings within some of its population) which doesn't realise that forcing it underground avoids making it seem legitmate to coming generations. Keeping it in the open allows people to think - "well maybe I am right because s/he thinks like that too".

[deecree]

Racism is always a bad thing.

No debate, no argument - hating people because of what they were born is wrong.

So if Spain is up front about it that is the sign of an immature society (or one which still has ultra right leanings within some of its population) which doesn't realise that forcing it underground avoids making it seem legitmate to coming generations. Keeping it in the open allows people to think - "well maybe I am right because s/he thinks like that too".


I guess I'd agree with that. In the UK its a huge taboo to be thought of as racist even to the racists - this may create an annoying level of paranoia in what you can say in public and of political correctness - but at least it keeps it out of day-to-day life and it's not something that's always in your face. But, I guess the only person who could give a valid opinion on whether hiding racism in society is better than it being out in the open - is someone of a minority group who has lived, for example, in both the UK and Spain.
Didn't Ben once interview an Asian businessman from the UK who moved to Madrid? I don't remember if they were close or not...

[Paco]

You won"t be able to undestand Spaniard mind, about races, you have to born in the culture, you may learn the languange but that's something you gets in your mother's milk.
First you have to understand the arabs conquered and abused Spain for 800 years, from raping women killing and stealing children to convert them to the islam to opened persecution against Christians,those thing you can't forget for generations. Spain was saved by GOD grace thru the queen and King of Castilla, they unified Spain and kicked the muslim out of the country. ( I want to make clear in the agenda of today muslim extremist is to take Spain back) also some of the mechanism to make the people of Spain unified was to look at other races as inferior. So when an asian move into our neighborhood, we called "el chino" (the chinese) even if that person is from Japan. is a way of simplify things. Yes some of those coments are not political correct. But in Spain who cares?, if you are dark completion you are even handsome and pretty to them, they may call you "la mora" o "el Moro" but if you are black that's another story. They even paint the devil black in old Spanish paintings They will call you "el negro" "el africano", "el chocolaton" but they have no problems socializing with a black person, even getting married with one. THis is part of their culture. You wont be able to get that away from them for many generations to come. And let's face it the extremist muslims are making this behaviour to stay. So you can't blame Spaniards for this. But be aware if you go to Spain they may treat you like that even is you are blond and blue eye, they may call you "el inglesito" "el gato" (if you have blue eyes) o el gringo o el americano. If you are white form Spanish stock but from the Caribbean or latin american they may call you by your contry of origen, " el cubano" el dominicano" (from Dominican Republic) or " el indio" to resume all the people from their former colonies. but I think the Spaniard culture is more benign treating different races than American White. I never heard of a KKK from Spain, or any killing based only in race or different color in Spain, (with an exception in the past of the Reconquista war, when they killed a lot of muslims, and after that when they made the hundred of jewish people to convert to Catholism). But the topic is open for discussion. Here from Pennsylvania. Paco:)

[ValenciaSon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've learned that the most prosperous years in the history of Spain were those when the jews, the muslims and the christians co-existed in Spain as this period of tolerance helped the Spanish economy to flourish and brought spanish culture to higher levels as each group contributed assets to Spain, still enjoyed to this day, such as architecture, cooking, music and others. It was the expulsion of the jews and muslims which came about from the intolerance that the Spanish royalty decided to finally manifest.

I see this unfortunate turn of events in Spain's history to be the result of prejudice and not some effort to rid a malevolent presence which existed in Spain for 800 years.

[Paco]

You may have your opinion of what is prosperous. When they have they colonies in America, Spain was the richest of the countries in the whole world,. Silver and gold was running like water. Mainly silver from the Potosi mines in Mexico and other things sugar, fruits from the america, animal a lot of exotic animals, slaves, new crops like potato from South America, Sugar Cane from India, and Cattle-meat from the Pampas in Argentina started feeding the new Empire also brought a lot of money to the empire, people started eating better and more, trade was unbelievable and the empire was also related to other kingdoms by blood or realtionship and influence, even people start comming to Spain, Art fluorished commerce fluorished, even archicture but I didnt like this period, the standard of living improved 100%. Now if you want to see the architectual richness of Spain, maybe you have to go to the period prior kicking the muslins out. The riches in those buildings are still visible. The muslims had absolute power, cheap labor and a lot of money so these bulding where absolute gorgeous or (I should say are). La alambra to mention just one. But if you really look into it they have a lot of them still in great shape around Spain. They really didnt kicked out the Jewish and the muslim,( some of them left of course) like Hitler did to the jewish people in Germany, Many jewish among them my greatgrandfather,changed their religion by name only and continued practising underground, also the muslim did the same thing. They even "changed" their last name, ex. from Peretz (jewish) to Perez (cristiano) and we all know which last name is jewish background and which is not. but a lot of them didn't leave the country o yes or some were kill by La inquicicion, and the purity of race was mandatory if you wanted to have a significan position or to marry somebody, "Cristiano viejo" was a term used like a sign of good blood, I dont blame them because the withcraft and devil worshiping was very communand other things (I dont want to go in detail)were commun practice, La Inquisicion was brutal I agreed, was their Gestapo and kept the country from the Reformation big mistake, A country with only Catholic values goes no where. But "neverthless"Spain was a very powerfull empiere for many centuries. La Armada was probably the must powerful army in the world. And is stupid to think it was only one race under their flag. From blacks, indians, white, jewish, muslims, french and italians, portuguese and germans even the royalty in Spain have a lot of german blood on them even english blood and other races mediterraneans like greeks and Italian were living under one flag, and one shield and one religion the catholic religion and the Lion of Castilla . But racially they were very multicultural if you will. But this concept was not available at that time. I do not agree with your statement "Spain started loosing their power when they kicked the muslins and the Jewish people out", when countries like France (los francecitos cabrones) started feeding ideas MONEY a lot of Money and weapons to the english and Spanish colonies to make them "FREE" and make both empiere weak, they suceed with Spain and also with England (they lost USA) ( and this bit them in the ass later on, when MarieAntoniette and Luis's heads were biting a basket after the guillotine cut their head off and the best of the french race (and looks) was lost in the stupid french revolution, they are still paying for it, the best of the french race was wasted). Them they created division in the empire and of course the Revolutions that we all know, creating small countries all around the world because el patriotismo now we are a poor fractioned race without hope and the fragmentation of the empire and the declination of it, we are still paying for it. But Spain was a very powerful empiere for centuries after they "kicked out the muslims and the Jewish people" like you suggested . I want to remind you again I am a decendent of one of those jewish guy one that never left, one, yes lied to la Inquisicion and married a jewish woman and had a family under "El leon de Castilla"and he was not alone believe me he was not alone. Enjoy. Paco

[omeyas]

Mainly silver from the Potosi mines in Mexico

Your grasp of history is very poor, and I won´t bother going into all the detail, but unless they´ve moved it, I was always under the impression that Potosi was in Bolivia. You´re miles out, just like some of your other facts. :)

Potosí is a city, the capital of the department of Potosí (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potos%C3%AD_Department) in Bolivia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia). It is at an altitude of 3967 meters and has about 115,000 inhabitants. It is claimed to be the highest city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_towns_by_country) in the world. It lies beneath the Cerro Rico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Rico) ("Rich mountain"), a mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain) of silver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver) ore, which has always dominated the city

[deecree]

:confused:

[Laguiri]

Mmmm...ok
I would say in my personal opinion:rolleyes: that monkey chants constitute overt racism. Let's see, no-one is suggesting that racism is unique to Spain, that is obviously not the case. However I would suggest that it IS prevalent in Spain and that this problem is currently not very well recognized. Racism is not going to disappear until there is a recognition of its existence. And calling someone (for example) of Japanese heritage or nationality a chino IS offensive. I know bc as a kid my best friends were Vietnamese and they were genuinely offended when people called them Chinese. Its not just simplification, that's what stereotypes are born of. Also, its not just being politically-correct its about being polite and respecting other human beings, there's no need to be offensive when it is so easily avoided. As I said in my original post, I made my comments because i personally witnessed various examples of blatant racism and it shocked me because I had not seen it in Canada where we have a far greater variety of races and ethnicities. Now given this there DOES exist racism is Canada, but it is far less prevalent and accepted. This I attribute to Canada's long history of immigration, something fairly recent in Spain. Also these comments about Muslims for example and Spain's history hold little water, I heard comments about muslims from the mother of one of my old students, however i also heard far more times derogatory comments about oriental asians, who as far as I know...have no history within Spain...Perhaps part of the problem lies in Spain's sudden altering of values that has occured since the end of the dictatorship, ie introduction of gay-marriage etc. And the fact is that a lot of people simply have not really changed their beliefs, but now that Spain is a "progressive" country admitting to a racism problem might be seen as a step back so its just denied or ignored.

[Brian]

Laguiri,

I would agree with about 90% of what you said, except that your example of someone calling a Japanese person 'Chinese' is not really racism. It's insensitivity, perhaps even ignorance, but I don't see how that crosses the line into feelings of supremacy concerning one's race. I appreciate your point, but I just felt that it was important to interject into this very controversial issue.

Mmmm...ok
I would say in my personal opinion:rolleyes: that monkey chants constitute overt racism. Let's see, no-one is suggesting that racism is unique to Spain, that is obviously not the case. However I would suggest that it IS prevalent in Spain and that this problem is currently not very well recognized. Racism is not going to disappear until there is a recognition of its existence. And calling someone (for example) of Japanese heritage or nationality a chino IS offensive. I know bc as a kid my best friends were Vietnamese and they were genuinely offended when people called them Chinese. Its not just simplification, that's what stereotypes are born of. Also, its not just being politically-correct its about being polite and respecting other human beings, there's no need to be offensive when it is so easily avoided. As I said in my original post, I made my comments because i personally witnessed various examples of blatant racism and it shocked me because I had not seen it in Canada where we have a far greater variety of races and ethnicities. Now given this there DOES exist racism is Canada, but it is far less prevalent and accepted. This I attribute to Canada's long history of immigration, something fairly recent in Spain. Also these comments about Muslims for example and Spain's history hold little water, I heard comments about muslims from the mother of one of my old students, however i also heard far more times derogatory comments about oriental asians, who as far as I know...have no history within Spain...Perhaps part of the problem lies in Spain's sudden altering of values that has occured since the end of the dictatorship, ie introduction of gay-marriage etc. And the fact is that a lot of people simply have not really changed their beliefs, but now that Spain is a "progressive" country admitting to a racism problem might be seen as a step back so its just denied or ignored.

[Edith]

This discussion looks interesting, but I haven got my reading glasses with me and I haven got the time,l but I will join this discussion after treturning to Holland. in 10 dAYS TIME.

[Paco]

Yes that was a lack of "quality ControL" Potosi is in Bolivia. However My dear Mexico and Peru produced a lot of the silver taken to Spain during the coloniztion.
Yes I am opening myself to attacks, and insults. Mainly those anti-semitics people in this site and in others. God bless Israel now and for ever. Paco

[Paco]

Are the french Canadian loving the rest of the country? Not the last time I checked. Yes I know Canada probably one of the most liberal countries that I know. But even there you can find perjudism. Believe me! Paco

[deecree]

:confused:

[Brian]

:confused:

What decree said.

[Edith]

You may have your opinion of what is prosperous. When they have they colonies in America, Spain was the richest of the countries in the whole world,. Silver and gold was running like water. Mainly silver from the Potosi mines in Mexico and other things sugar, fruits from the america, animal a lot of exotic animals, slaves, new crops like potato from South America, Sugar Cane from India, and Cattle-meat from the Pampas in Argentina started feeding the new Empire also brought a lot of money to the empire, people started eating better and more '

The spoils of war, and the cant of conquest... it beats me why some people still feel the need to justify mass murder and slavery to this very day., just like the Turks who are still in denial about the Armenian genocide.Why do you think the gold was running like water? It was taken by force from the Indians. Hundreds, perhaps even thousands of indigenous nations were defeated or wiped off the map in both Americas after 1492 and in some areas, like Brazil and Paraguay, tribes are still on th verge of becoming extinct. Many have died because they fell victims to European diseases, but many were also killed by the sword.

And where did all those other riches come from? It was produced by Indian and black slaves. Even though thge Indians were officially exempt flom slavery, many were enslaved as prisoners of war. (and whatś in a name anyway)

The hacendados of southern Argentina had to kill off the Indians of the pampas first before their estancias became profitable. businesses. These wars are known as the ' Guerras del Desierto

It goes without saying that the Incas and the Aztecs were cruel too, but this doesn't justify the glorification of European (I' m not only talking about Spain!) colonialism in any way. Even the Pope has shown some remorse. because of what has happened.

Perhaps I will go a little bit more into this subject when I return home, because I like to check some sources first before delving deeper.

I didn't get your story about crypto- Jews in Spain. Are some people actually suggesting that the Jews in Spain practiced some kind of witchcraft? Since I don believe in witchcraft anyway I would say that is a pack of lies emanating from the Inquisition and their ideological cronies. An ugly pack of lies wich cost the Jews dearly because they became the victims of ignorance and prejudice in its vilest form.

[Patty]

Edith - I liked reading all your comments. You appear to have a lot of knowledge on the matter. I have read a little about the Jewish population in Spain during the inquisition and I would say that I agree with your thoughts. Never have I heard of crypto-Jews nor the connection with witchcraft. I have read one book about that time period and would recommend it anyone....unfortunately at this hour of the morning I can't remember the name but will get it if anyone is interested.

[ValenciaSon]

Hey Patty, I'm interested and would greatly appreciate it if you can get a hold of the title and author and post it.

Thanks:)

[Edith]

Edith - I liked reading all your comments. You appear to have a lot of knowledge on the matter. I have read a little about the Jewish population in Spain during the inquisition and I would say that I agree with your thoughts. Never have I heard of crypto-Jews nor the connection with witchcraft. I have read one book about that time period and would recommend it anyone....unfortunately at this hour of the morning I can't remember the name but will get it if anyone is interested.

Hi Patty,

Learning about new books is always interesting! When you remember the name, please let us know! :)

Crypto-Jews who went into hiding during the Inquisition, for instance by pretending they were Christians and/or by changing their surnames. Some people have held this against them, but of course it was just a way to escape from persecution. Some other ethnic groups have done this too while they were facing similar circumstances. During their persecution by the Mexican government around 1900, the Yaqui Indians of northwestern Mexico reacted in almost eaxctly the same way as the Crypto-Jews did, i.e. by changing their surnames and by assuming a new identity.

During the Middle Ages, Jews were accused of many things, e.g. poisoning wells or adding the blood of Christian children to their matzos (even though Jewish religion strictly forbids the eating any kind of blood product, even to the point of rejecting eggs which may contain a tiny little spec of blood). Like Muslims, observant Jews will not eat anything which is not in accordance with their dietary laws., and ritual cannibalism is unheard of in both religions. But medieval people were very superstitious, and prone to believe just almost any kind of rumor they heard about the Jews.


According to some historians, some of the old Hispano families in New Mexico are descended from Crypto-Jews and some may actually still be practising some Jewish customs. Kathleen Alcalá is a Mexican-American writer of Jewish and Opata Indian descent wo writes about these issues in her semi-autobiographical novels. She says both her Jewish and her Native American ancestors were persecuted in the past. I can look up the names of these novels for you if you want when I get home.

[Edith]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've learned that the most prosperous years in the history of Spain were those when the jews, the muslims and the christians co-existed in Spain as this period of tolerance helped the Spanish economy to flourish and brought spanish culture to higher levels as each group contributed assets to Spain, still enjoyed to this day, such as architecture, cooking, music and others. It was the expulsion of the jews and muslims which came about from the intolerance that the Spanish royalty decided to finally manifest.

I see this unfortunate turn of events in Spain's history to be the result of prejudice and not some effort to rid a malevolent presence which existed in Spain for 800 years.

I agree 100%! Apart from some less fortunate episodes during which Al-Andalus was ruled by more strictly Muslim caliphs, coexistence seems to have been the norm. because Islam was a much more tolerant religion back then. Under Muslim rule, the sciences flourished and even though Jews and Christians were classified as dhimmies (unbelievers), they were not forced to convert to Islam and they could practice their religion openly. Jews and Muslims actually had lots in common, i.e. dietary practices and the use of ritual baths. The jews often acted as cultural mediators between Muslims and Christians, translating books by the Greek philosophers which had been saved by the Arabs into Latin. IMO, it' s very unfortunate that Islam, for whatever reason, became a much more intolerant religion after their Golden Age ended.

[deecree]

It goes without saying that the Incas and the Aztecs were cruel too, but this doesn't justify the glorification of European (I' m not only talking about Spain!) colonialism in any way. Even the Pope has shown some remorse. because of what has happened.


The militaristic Incas were less cruel that you think, the majority of their empire was formed by 'peaceful' means where regional kings were coerced into joining the empire by money and threats. Read here (http://enperu.blogsyte.com/blog.aspx?b=179) about a conquistador's deep regrets about exterminating a peaceful, friendly and good people.

[Paco]

My ancestors were Jewish, and they covered themselves with the the Cross to survive, I still eat Kocher today, and I am protestant not jewish, but I am jewish by race. A lot of them survived that way.
Now they were not practicing withcraft, well I guess some of them did it, like a lot of other people at that time. And the Inquicicion were always hunting for this, we can't forget, it was very commun in Europe at that time, to practice whitchcraft, and espiritismo, and espiritualismo. For the Inquisicion was all Withcraft, and once they accused you of that you were history, maybe some of the Jewish practices were seen as whitchcraft? I dont know maybe.
Regading the comment about the "loving aztecs" I think you are right to a certain point, some people jointed there empire just because they were very scare but others were forced to joint there empire, they always needed slaves and humans for the human sacrify practice, also they practiced cannibalism. The same goes for the Mayas. A missconception is the poor Indians in America were contaminated by the European with terrible diseases, yes probably this was true, (we are not sure if Syphilis was introduce to America by the European we are unable to find any description of the disease prior Cristobal Colon and his adventure, and after this we had an outbrake of Syphilis in Europe like you never seen before, thats when make up for women and men became very popular and wigs because one of the things Syphilis do is to make you to loose your hair and to have spots in the skin, but please if you find any description of the sickness prior the discovery of America let me know so I will be able to read it)but also sickness like cholera came from the Indian population other like "Chagas" was unknow in Europe and still is very exotic but a lot of other New Sickness contaminated the European so I think we have to keep the mind opened to learn what really happened back them. America WAS not a paradise and this I can tell you is a fact. Paco.;D

[ValenciaSon]

Jews may share origins and therefore have similar HLAs in their genotypical makeup but they are not a race, they are an ethnicity. Forcing jews to convert or leave is part and parcel of the expulsion carried out by the Spanish royalty so for the jews who remained, they essentially had to change their identity or leave. Claiming to have jewish heritage does not give one the moral license to perpetuate antisemitic ideology. The expulsion was one brutal example of intolerance to difference which has to be avoided today as Spain becomes more and more diverse from the influx of immigrants.

It was the indigenous populations of the Americas which suffered infestations from Europeans and not the other way around. That is evidenced by the fact that whole indigenous communities were wiped out completely within a century after the arrival of Europeans. If the converse were true than European communities would have been wiped out like so many natives were in the Americas, but that simply wasn't the case.



Bottom line: Immigrant influx means tolerance to diversity in, xenophobia out.

[deecree]

It stands to reason that Amerindian populations passed diseases to Spanish invaders that they came into contact with (many of which probably died of them long before arriving back onto Spanish shores - I am sure I have read about conquistadors becoming sick and dieing in the new world).

It's a little ridiculous, however, to deny the well documented deaths of millions from strange new diseases in North and South America brought by Europeans.

[Paco]

I see myself as a race, I am semitic and I look semitic I am pro-Israel 100% And I want to make that clear.

[ValenciaSon]

I see myself as a race, I am semitic and I look semitic I am pro-Israel 100% And I want to make that clear.


Raza: El término raza refiere a cada uno de los grupos en que se subdividen las especies (humanas y no humanas). Las categorías raciales humanas más usadas están basadas en los carácteres biológicos (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car%C3%A1cter_%28biolog%C3%ADa%29) visibles (especialmente el color de piel (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_de_piel) y las características faciales (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cara)), y los genes (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen).

[Señora]

I'm just dipping my toe in here, because the last time we had a similar discussion, I appeared to have put both my feet in...big time.!

It is well documented that Captain Eucyer distributed blankets and an handkerchief infected with the smallpox virus, from the already infected Fort Pitt during the Pontiac Indian war.
The smallpox virus wiped out more people than diseases like measles, chickenpox, typus, diphtheria, etc etc. all put together.

The diseases mentioned above are highly contagious communal diseases, and as the Indians lived in sparse communities up and down the plains, and with the exception of veneral disease, they were free from communicable diseases, therefore they had no immunity to the "white mans" infectious dieases that had ravaged Europe and Asia for centuries ....the white man brought the disease to the Indians...otherwise how can we account for them flourishing and existing in a hard terrain prior to the invasion of Europeans.?

Also, the Indians practised the procedure of "isolation" hundreds of years prior to the "white man" acknowledging that it would prevent the spread of disease....anyone sick in a village would be taken outside and assigned a "nurse" usually an old woman who "belonged" to nobody.

[Señora]

I see myself as a race, I am semitic and I look semitic I am pro-Israel 100% And I want to make that clear.
I personally don't see the reason for posting such a statement, and I find it racist and provocative in nature.

I'm going to put both my feet in here, by saying that the jews are not a semitic race.....there is no such race as a jew.
The word "jew" came about from the translation of latin scripts which do not have the letter J.
In the first translation of the English bible, Wycliffe referred to Jesus as a "gyu" and that word went through many changes like giu, iuw, iwe, iow, etc etc...until finally jew.

Anyone born in Judea was called a Judean, and Jesus was referred to as a Judean.
The Eastern jews who form 92% of the worlds population that call themselves jews were originally Khazars.
The only people who are semitic are the Arabs.

[Edith]

The militaristic Incas were less cruel that you think, the majority of their empire was formed by 'peaceful' means where regional kings were coerced into joining the empire by money and threats. Read here (http://enperu.blogsyte.com/blog.aspx?b=179) about a conquistador's deep regrets about exterminating a peaceful, friendly and good people.

I running out of euros sooo fast here!!! ;D (I using one of these computers which have got a slit to put money in) Next week I will read the Inca article and post a more extensive comment. This is interesting stuff and I always enjoy discussing it. Hasta pronto., I'll keep in touch.

[Edith]

Jews may share origins and therefore have similar HLAs in their genotypical makeup but they are not a race, they are an ethnicity. Forcing jews to convert or leave is part and parcel of the expulsion carried out by the Spanish royalty so for the jews who remained, they essentially had to change their identity or leave. Claiming to have jewish heritage does not give one the moral license to perpetuate antisemitic ideology. The expulsion was one brutal example of intolerance to difference which has to be avoided today as Spain becomes more and more diverse from the influx of immigrants.

It was the indigenous populations of the Americas which suffered infestations from Europeans and not the other way around. That is evidenced by the fact that whole indigenous communities were wiped out completely within a century after the arrival of Europeans. If the converse were true than European communities would have been wiped out like so many natives were in the Americas, but that simply wasn't the case.



Bottom line: Immigrant influx means tolerance to diversity in, xenophobia out.


:clap:

[Tali]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1355583,00.html
An article about racism in Spain.

[Paco]

I thought the majority of those "wiped out" group of indians. Was more because they were forced to work in terrible conditions. That's why el Padre Las Casas. Came to the king and queen of Spain asking them for help to releive the indians from these forced work they were not use to work so hard. And they did help. However this also started the black slavery. Slavery is a terrible thing. But human being always are looking for somobody else to don the dirty work. We are still doing it, and we will continue doing it.

[deecree]

I thought the majority of those "wiped out" group of indians. Was more because they were forced to work in terrible conditions. That's why el Padre Las Casas. Came to the king and queen of Spain asking them for help to releive the indians from these forced work they were not use to work so hard. And they did help. However this also started the black slavery. Slavery is a terrible thing. But human being always are looking for somobody else to don the dirty work. We are still doing it, and we will continue doing it.

In the Caribbean I believe those who didn't die of disease were worked to death, yes.

[deecree]

Last week, a white supremacist on a Dutch discussion board said I didn't have the right to call myself Dutch because of my appearance (he had found my picture on Flickr, the same avatar I use here). Some people are just full off ****.

You got me thinking how Un-English Mr Ben Curtis looks, everyone knows Englishmen look this this...
http://www.sterlingtimes.org/englishman2.jpg

Ben... You are a fraud. A fraud I tell you!

[ValenciaSon]

You got me thinking how Un-English Mr Ben Curtis looks, everyone knows Englishmen look this this...
http://www.sterlingtimes.org/englishman2.jpg

Ben... You are a fraud. A fraud I tell you!

Where's the cuppa tea?

[deecree]

Where's the cuppa tea?

It is currently not tea time (30 seconds since the last cup and 30 more until the next.)

[Teo]

Racism is everywhere and the most racist people are just the ones that deny by all means they are ethnically biased.

Racism is a disease that occurs in all ethnic groups, even among those who are racially discriminated.

It is true that in Spain, political correctness is not as acute as in the US, and most people would just refer to Asians as 'Chinos' without neccesarily having to have a negative significance.

I couldn´t tell if in Spain there is more of a racist attitude as in any other country of Europe, or the US.

One other thing has to be taken into consideration. The inmigration inflow in the last decade in Spain has been tremendous, about the biggest in the world. Until the mid nineties Spain was the most homogeneous ethnic country in all of the western world, now one out of every ten people living in Spain were born abroad and almost 20% of the newborns in Spain have inmigrant parents.

The advantages of multiculturalism are obvious, and I think an ethnic diverse society is a richer one, but some problems have also arosen, and it is particulary dodgy to point them out, but in the end some people are liable to simplify the diagnosis of the problems of a complex society by labeling people in ethnic groups, which is just the root of racism.

What are the advantages of multiculturalism? They are not obvious to me, other than a diverse selection of restaurants. This is a serious question. I am not trying to be funny.

[ValenciaSon]

It brings different perspectives to bear on problems, hence newer solutions. It also keeps a society from becoming monotonous.

[deecree]

It brings different perspectives to bear on problems, hence newer solutions. It also keeps a society from becoming monotonous.

Exactly.
If everyone has the same background they have the same perspectives and ideas and they go about solving a problem in the same way.
If some people have different backgrounds and different perspectives they will have different views on how to solve a problem, which may be better but at least offer more choice.

You will see large corporations these days realising this and getting rich off the back of their recruitment policies that positively discriminate in favour of minority groups that bring these different perspectives.
A representative from a large investment bank in London once told me about their recruitment policy - to seek out people with interesting backgrounds (from Bengali immigrants, to Brits that lived some time in another country), and explaining the vast benefits multiculturalism is having on the economies of the western world.

There are people getting very rich from realising the benefits of multiculturalism.

[Andy Woolley]

..... and of course it is not just a diverse selection of restaurants but of music, literature, drama, athletes and sports stars and so on. Britain has been a multicultural society since recorded history - we have been mixing together the various sorts of celts with, angles, the saxons, the normans, the romans, the Jewish diaspora, black africans, "moors" and more recently people from all over the World particularly the former British Empire but by no means exclusively (the largest immigrant group currently are Polish people).

Take them away and you would have nobody left - our whole cultural history is based on the input of these migrants, some who came in peace and some who didn't.

At the same time we brits have been going all over the World making other places more diverse because of our presence as settlers elsewhere.

[Edith]

I thought the majority of those "wiped out" group of indians.

Working people to death is genocide too:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gendef.htm

[Edith]

P.s. Deecree: I haven't forgotten my promise to look into your Inca article and to reply to it. Laters!

[Edith]

What are the advantages of multiculturalism? They are not obvious to me, other than a diverse selection of restaurants. This is a serious question. I am not trying to be funny.

You should realize though that 'they' are here because 'we' were there! During previous centuries, Europeans colonized large parts of the world, displacing or even wiping out many indigenous peoples in the process. We also imposed our rule on regions whose population we didn't kill, like in South East Asia or in parts of Africa. Now the chickens are coming home to roost, so to speak. I am not trying to be ironical.

[Andy Woolley]

You should realize though that 'they' are here because 'we' were there!

Absolutely right Edith but more than that as I said in my previous post we should recognise that "we" are not a homogenous group and that sometimes "they" are here because they wanted to be "here". The idea that "we" were a racially homogenous group until a few years ago is ridiculous. People have always been economic migrants and political refugeees and the World has benefited as a result.

I have moved 300 miles to get the job and the environment I wanted - what difference is that to someone who has moved 3,000 miles. If the colour of their skin is different, so what?

[Edith]

You should realize though that 'they' are here because 'we' were there!

Absolutely right Edith but more than that as I said in my previous post we should recognise that "we" are not a homogenous group and that sometimes "they" are here because they wanted to be "here".

Very true, but I also feel that Europe is now paying the price for its past colonial exploits. Some groups, like the North Africans in France, do have trouble integrating but the very reason they came to France in the first place (and not to Britain or Norway) has got to do with these historical ties.

I know at least two examples of forced migrations from the colonies to Europe: the Indo-Dutch (Indische Nederlanders) and the South Moluccans. The first group was ousted from Indonesia by Sukarno a couple of years after independence because he considered them to be traitors, and they had no other option but to come to Holland. The South Moluccans were actually compelled by the Dutch authorities to come to Holland after Indonesia's independence because their men were soldiers in the Dutch colonial army. BTW, the 500,000 Indo-Dutch are a real success story because they have become part of Dutch society without giving up their identity. They are doing very well and I'm not aware of any special problems concerning relations with the other Dutch.

Among the South Moluccans, there is still much bitterness because they feel betrayed and neglected by the Dutch government. In the 1970s, this resulted in two dramatic train hijackings in the northern part of Holland. Another group of terrorists kidnapped dozens of school children but fortunately, this drama did not turn into a Dutch Beslan. I do sympathize with the Moluccans because the colonial authorities turned them against other groups as part of their divide-and-rule strategy. But I do not condone terrorism in any form. Thank goodness, the hijackings are now a thing of the past and the Moluccans are finally finding their way into Dutch society.

I do believe cultures can live together peacefully under certain circumstances, and this often enriches society. In the past, Dutch society benefited greatly from migrants such as the Sephardic Jews from Portugal, the Huguenots from France, and the Indo-Dutch to name but a few. Or the Hungarians, the Chileans and the Argentinians (political refugees all).

On the other hand, I do not believe in excessive political correctness which forces us to keep silent about the many problems related to migrants from Muslim countries. There are many decent Muslims but I do feel radical Islam is one of the greatest threats Europe is facing at this moment. As a woman, I do feel affected by the appearance of burqas and other full-face coverings on our streets. I also know that radical Islam is on the increase within the Islamic world itself. This is a time bomb waiting to explode. While in Tenerife I heard that some groups are actually trying to get sharia law off the ground in the U.K. Fortunately, similar attempts have been nipped in the bud by the Canadians. The Somalis practice female genital mutilation (which is not an Islamic practice, although they claim it to be) in Europe. It's illegal but it happens. In Holland, anti-Semitism among Moroccans is a big problem and Jewish men can no longer wear their yarmulke in certain Amsterdam neighborhoods. Amsterdam, of all places! (Amsterdam has always been a very 'Jewish' city). Gays have also been attacked by young Moroccans. Until quite recently, Amsterdam was the place to go if you were gay or lesbian.

I don't think these problems will go away by themselves if we keep ignoring them.

This is got nothing to do with racism because Islam is a religion, not a race. Anyone can be a Muslim, regardless of skin color or ethnicity. Racism is Jim Crow or apartheid. Racism is hatred of people whose skin color is different from your own.

And do remember that Muslims are free to practice their religion and to build mosques all over Europe, but that Christians and Jews are often kept from doing so in Muslim countries. Turkey even wiped out 90% of its Christian (Armenian) population during World War I but the denial concerning the Armenian genocide continues to this very day. In Turkey, there is even a law against mentioning the Armenian genocide in public. Nobel Prize laureate Orham Pamuk was almost sent to prison for doing so! In school, Turkish children still learn they are the master race. Kemal Atatürk, the founding father of modern Turkey, was a great advocate of ultra-nationalism and state racism which denied the rights of Armenians and Kurds. He is still revered in Turkey as a national hero. So why should we allow this country to join the European Union, as long as they don't seem to have a clue about human rights?

So if we want to talk about intolerance and repression, I think some Muslim countries should sweep their stoop first before accusing us of curbing the rights of their citizens in Europe. In societies with a Muslim majority, other people are often second-class citizens, a few exceptions notwithstanding. Unfortunately, these arguments - which DO make sense - are often hijacked by the extreme right, which uses them for their own purposes. I do not like the extreme right and I would never have voted for a clown like Pim Fortuyn, who wanted to abolish the welfare state even though the working classes revered him.

[Andy Woolley]

I agree entirely that religion is a problem - ironically as we are in a forum about Spain - the Iberian peninsula was a much more tolerant place prior to 1492 and the "reconquest".

I believe the equation of race and religion has done enormous damage to race relations and the idea that we cannot criticise Islam or any other religion because would be racist to do so is dangerous nonsense.

[Edith]

I believe the equation of race and religion has done enormous damage to race relations and the idea that we cannot criticise Islam or any other religion because would be racist to do so is dangerous nonsense.

Hear, hear.

[richardksa]

I believe the equation of race and religion has done enormous damage to race relations and the idea that we cannot criticise Islam or any other religion because would be racist to do so is dangerous nonsense.

I agree. Living and working where I do I see intolerance and bias on a daily basis. Religion is the basis for so many cultures it is naive to think that the two are seperate. Until the arrival of satellite TV in Saudi there was a definate move to isolate the population from any influence from other cultures. A retiring British consul summed it up in the 80s by refering to the three "I"s; Ignorance, Isolation and Islam. Of course it created a mini diplomatic crisis, but from a resident's point of view there is much truth in this.

Multiculturalism is a pipe dream and leads to much misunderstanding and frustration. Here is Saudi, to continue to work, I must respect the ways of the land. The same is true anywhere, but I you wish to live in a foreign land you must do more than give respect. You must integrate, even if it means giving up something you cherish. Otherwise you will never have a full roll in your chosen new home. And if you do not want to do that, then go back to where you came from.

[Edith]

Here is Saudi, to continue to work, I must respect the ways of the land.

The Saudis go much further than that. They do not allow Jews and Christians to practice their religion openly (I have been told Jews aren't even allowed to enter the country) while they keep financing ultra-orthodox mosques and Koran schools in Europe where hatred against the secular West is being preached openly. They expect us to respect them while they do not respect us. And Wahabism is spreading fast. >:D Meanwhile, places like Marbella have become a popular hangout for male Saudis who want to enjoy the temptations of the West: sex, liquor...

[Teo]

The Saudis go much further than that. They do not allow Jews and Christians to practice their religion openly (I have been told Jews aren't even allowed to enter the country) while they keep financing ultra-orthodox mosques and Koran schools in Europe where hatred against the secular West is being preached openly. They expect us to respect them while they do not respect us. And Wahabism is spreading fast. >:D Meanwhile, places like Marbella have become a popular hangout for male Saudis who want to enjoy the temptations of the West: sex, liquor, women...

This thread seems to be getting twisted. Probably towards the truth. Europe's problem is a low native birthrate, which will eventually extinguish it's culture. And drives the need to import a foreign work force. I think multiculturalism breeds intolerance. In the '30's the Nazis were reading one book as they practiced intolerance. Now, it's the same thing. Just another book.

[Edith]

I think multiculturalism breeds intolerance. In the '30's the Nazis were reading one book as they practiced intolerance. Now, it's the same thing. Just another book.

:confused:

Just because there is a problem with radical Islam, this doesn't mean multiculturalism is wrong per se. And I don't see any kind of relationship between multiculturalism and Nazism.

IMO, monocultural societies (and people) are often boring. Sometimes, isolation even leads to inbreeding. Ever heard about 'hybrid vigor'?

BTW, I think it takes chutzpah to complain about foreign immigration because we, Europeans, invaded half the world and replaced its native inhabitants in many continents. Apart from that, human migrations are as old as the world itself.

[ValenciaSon]

As an argument for multiculturalism I again point to that era in Spain when the jews, moors and christians co-existed as it represented the most prosperous years in Spanish history.

[richardksa]

That was an era of tolerance we would do well to emulate today. However, while many europeans are happy to welcome immigrants, it would then seem the in-comers then do not want to integrate and are actually intolerant of their hosts. That is what multi-culturalism means in Europe. We do not want another instance of apartheid, even if it is self-induced.

[Edith]

it would then seem the in-comers then do not want to integrate and are actually intolerant of their hosts. That is what multi-culturalism means in Europe. We do not want another instance of apartheid, even if it is self-induced.

We should not forget that there are also examples of successful integration by immigrants, such as the groups I mentioned earlier. BTW, I only expect migrants to give up customs or beliefs which actually clash with ours, unless they keep them to themselves of course. But if someone doesn't want to eat pork or drink alcohol that's fine with me, as long as he doesn't try to force these ideas on us. The same is true for Christian groups such as Mormons of Jehovah's Witnesses - they are entitled to their own beliefs, as long as they leave me alone.

[ValenciaSon]

Besides, what is the alternative to espousing multiculturalism, ethnocentricity, xenophobia? What has that yielded in the past?

[Edith]

Besides, what is the alternative to espousing multiculturalism, ethnocentricity, xenophobia? What has that yielded in the past?

Apartheid, concentration camps, ethnic cleansings, civil wars and dictatorships.

[richardksa]

Multiculturalism is just a polite word for apartheid. I do not want to seperate development of races or religions in Europe. I want to see a fully integrated homogenous society. We should all be marching to the beat of the same drum, no matter what book the drummer choses to believe in.

When I visit towns in the UK I feel I should feel at home, but that in not the case in two distinct suburbs of Leicester.

[ValenciaSon]

Isn't homogenous society just a polite term for ethnocentrism?

[deecree]

Isn't homogenous society just a polite term for ethnocentrism?

:)

[Edith]

I want to see a fully integrated homogenous society. We should all be marching to the beat of the same drum, no matter what book the drummer choses to believe in.

No, Franco tried this and so did Atatürk. It simply doesn't work: the Basques and the Catalans are there to stay, and so are the Kurds in Turkey. And look at what happened on the Balkans, a region full of ultra-nationalists who tried to lay claim to a fictitious past in order to ethnically cleanse 'their' county.

I can live with differences; what I cannot live with is people forcing orthodox religion, cultural backwardness and gender oppression down my thoat. Societies like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or Iran, which force minorities and dissenters to conform or die, simply frighten me to death.

To me, multiculturalism means living in a cosmopolitan society where people share the same values about issues such as gender equality, work ethics, and human rights, but where different languages are spoken and where races intermarry. Places like New York or Vancouver, for instance.

I can understand why the Leicester suburbs frighten you, but isn't that precisely because those people chose not to mingle?

[Paco]

As long they leave you alone... Which happens very but when you have a daughter in "love" with a mormon and this guy thinks about having more than one wife is not wrong. Then you get scare of those groups treating the women like comodities. What do you think?

[greytop]

As long they leave you alone... Which happens very but when you have a daughter in "love" with a mormon and this guy thinks about having more than one wife is not wrong. Then you get scare of those groups treating the women like comodities. What do you think?
I think it is up to your daughter to make her own choices. By all means discuss this with her but at some point you have to let go and be there for support when she needs it.
You think the Mormon is wrong in his attitude to women (& I'm inclined to be with you there!), maybe he thinks you are wrong in your need to control your children for ever.
Even if you don't like that particular choice she could probably have made far worse ones.

[richardksa]

To me, multiculturalism means living in a cosmopolitan society where people share the same values about issues such as gender equality, work ethics, and human rights, but where different languages are spoken and where races intermarry. Places like New York or Vancouver, for instance.

I can understand why the Leicester suburbs frighten you, but isn't that precisely because those people chose not to mingle?

Phrasing it as "... chose not to mingle", makes light of what I see as a serious refusal to integrate. I am not frightened to go there. I felt no threat, just a alien difference that should not exist in my home country. I am completely ambivalent to their religion and their culture. If that is how they wish to live then I will not argue with them. But they, or their ancestors, chose to leave their home and come to live in mine. To put it another way, they chose too come and live with me. I expect guests to respect the rules of the house. Unfortunately, the UK is not the melting pot that is the US, but I wish it were.

I am now chosing to live in Spain. I do so not to bring my culture with me, but to embrace another. The English enclaves along the coast do not interest me. (No offence intended to those who do live there, it's just my way.) I want to live like the Spanish. Otherwise I would stay in the UK. All those who choose to change their lives and live elsewhere should be willing to adopt the mores of their chosen new home - otherwise, what is the point?

[Edith]

As long they leave you alone... Which happens very but when you have a daughter in "love" with a mormon and this guy thinks about having more than one wife is not wrong. Then you get scare of those groups treating the women like comodities. What do you think?

I would probably be very worried about the future of my daughter, just like any mother would.

Two weeks ago I read an article in El País about a young Spanish woman from Mallorca who went to London, met an Afghan, married him, converted to Islam and now lives in Kabul with her husband and two children. Their papers have been stolen and she wants to return to Spain, so she's trying to get them back. She is expecting her third child and hasn't got the money for a hospital (what sort of a hospital would that be anyway in a city like Kabul?). During her last pregnancy - a home delivery with no medically trained people present - her mother-in-law had to stand on her belly in order to make the child come out. On the street, she has to wear a burqa so she won't be molested or raped, and she has to wash her neighbors' clothes to make a living (I don't know what her husband does) . She is glad that Afghan women 'can go to school now' even though the Taliban still drop bombs there, and who knows, maybe in twenty years' time, they will even be allowed to drive cars! >:D Wow! What an accomplishment that would be!

I showed the article to my Spanish teacher and we were both flabbergasted by it. This story did not come out of a tabloid, this was from El País. The choices some women make!!! I mean, she ran right into that trap without even thinking twice, just like people joining a cult. Afghanistan, out of all places: probably the worst country on earth for a woman. If I'd been her parents I would have done anything to stop her, even if this would have meant physically impeding her from going. Just look at the situation she's in right now. Even in a country like Iran she would have been much, MUCH better off.

[Brian]

To me, multiculturalism means living in a cosmopolitan society where people share the same values about issues such as gender equality, work ethics, and human rights, but where different languages are spoken and where races intermarry. Places like New York or Vancouver, for instance.


Are you saying that people in New York all share the same values? All 20+ million of them? ;)

[ValenciaSon]

Well I think it's all relative but there are some cities that are more polarized than others.

[Brian]

Well I think it's all relative but there are some cities that are more polarized than others.

Well, sure, there are probably a LOT of people that think/act the same way in those places. But, my point is that by and large, you won't find a more diverse place, idealogically, spiritually, philosophically, politically, etc., than New York.

[ValenciaSon]

Well, sure, there are probably a LOT of people that think/act the same way in those places. But, my point is that by and large, you won't find a more diverse place, idealogically, spiritually, philosophically, politically, etc., than New York.

As a born and raised native New Yorker, no argument there!:)

[Edith]

Are you saying that people in New York all share the same values? All 20+ million of them? ;)

Claro que no. :D But to me, it seems to be a place which attracts cosmopolitans, perhaps more so than some other places on this planet. Just like Vancouver BTW.

[ValenciaSon]

Claro que no. :D But to me, it seems to be a place which attracts cosmopolitans, perhaps more so than some other places on this planet. Just like Vancouver BTW.

It appears to me that the most successful metrocenters in the world are the ones that have the ability to tolerate a variety of peoples and as a result enjoy a diversity of ideas which sustains their momentum as thriving, cosmopolitan areas.

[Tali]

But is tolerance the same as acceptance? You can tolerate a person or a culture but not fully accept. Without acceptance then social mobility become nigh on impossible...

[Edith]

It appears to me that the most successful metrocenters in the world are the ones that have the ability to tolerate a variety of peoples and as a result enjoy a diversity of ideas which sustains their momentum as thriving, cosmopolitan areas.


I agree with that.

[ValenciaSon]

I don't see how the two have to be mutually exclusive.

[Teo]

It appears to me that the most successful metrocenters in the world are the ones that have the ability to tolerate a variety of peoples and as a result enjoy a diversity of ideas which sustains their momentum as thriving, cosmopolitan areas.

How many of these centers are there? In New York, the elite may tolerate the masses. Same word as tolerance. Why are there black sections, Puerto Rican sections, Indian sections, and others? You might as well be in China as Chinatown. I think real tolerance would be found in Panama City. For every place you may find "tolerance," there are dozens of places that are intolerant. It is the nature of man's evolution. We survived by being members of tribes. One may try to educate your way out of our innate beings, but it doesn't work.

[ValenciaSon]

How many of these centers are there? In New York, the elite may tolerate the masses. Same word as tolerance. Why are there black sections, Puerto Rican sections, Indian sections, and others? You might as well be in China as Chinatown. I think real tolerance would be found in Panama City. For every place you may find "tolerance," there are dozens of places that are intolerant. It is the nature of man's evolution. We survived by being members of tribes. One may try to educate your way out of our innate beings, but it doesn't work.

Not all of New York is organized in such racially/ethnically divided segments. You failed to mention Mid-town Manhattan, Greenwhich village, Brooklyn, Queens and even the Bronx, as areas with a diverse mix. New York may not be a flawless utopia (which place is?), but tolerance is driven by the masses. In a city of 8 million, it has to be. Our biological propensities toward kinship are certainly not hard-wired into us if you look at the increase of multiracial individuals of a span of time. That's pretty much conditioning we can ignore and are.

[Edith]

Our biological propensities toward kinship are certainly not hard-wired into us if you look at the increase of multiracial individuals of a span of time. That's pretty much conditioning we can ignore and are.

And let's look at Latin America too. Of course there is racism and prejudice in Latin America, and of course the conquest was extremely bloody and violent. But it also had a more positive outcome: except for el cono sur, much of Latin American society is characterized by racial mixing. (OTOH, the richer segments of society are usually white or nearly so).

[Brian]

Claro que no. :D But to me, it seems to be a place which attracts cosmopolitans, perhaps more so than some other places on this planet. Just like Vancouver BTW.

Vancouver? :o

Sorry, I'm no cosmopolitan, so pardon my ignorance on this one.

[Brian]

But is tolerance the same as acceptance? You can tolerate a person or a culture but not fully accept. Without acceptance then social mobility become nigh on impossible...

Definitely, there is a big difference. Tolerance means that you are able mentally to get past cultural differences. Acceptance means that you can embrace them. To me, they are varying levels of the same thing. But, to be able to embrace another culture completely is a very, very difficult thing to do, and it would take a very unique individual to be able to do so.

[Edith]

Vancouver? :o

Sorry, I'm no cosmopolitan, so pardon my ignorance on this one.

I've been told it's ethnically diverse, clean (environmentally friendly), and cosmopolitan. The United Nations considers it one of the best places to live.

http://vancouver.ca/aboutvan.htm

[Brian]

I've been told it's ethnically diverse, clean (environmentally friendly), and cosmopolitan. The United Nations considers it one of the best places to live.

http://vancouver.ca/aboutvan.htm

It certainly looks beautiful. What about winter weather?

[Edith]

It certainly looks beautiful. What about winter weather?

I know. Otherwise it would be ideal! :)

[Brian]

I know. Otherwise it would be ideal! :)

Yeah. It's Spain for me, I'm afraid.

[Edith]

Yeah. It's Spain for me, I'm afraid.

For me too. Canarias, to be precise. :D (I mean, to spend the winter)

[Brian]

For me too. Canarias, to be precise. :D (I mean, to spend the winter)

Wouldn't it be great to be "financially independent" so as to live 6 months a year in the Canarias, and the other 6 in Galicia?

[Edith]

Wouldn't it be great to be "financially independent" so as to live 6 months a year in the Canarias, and the other 6 in Galicia?

:clap:

If I were financially independent (i.e. if I would win the lottery) I would probably settle down on one of the Canary Islands and travel all over the rest of Spain, Italy, USA, Canada, Mexico, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, Australia and New Zealand to name but a few. And of course there would be special city trips to New York, London, Rome, Paris etc. Perhaps it would be nice to spend May and June in Vancouver.

[Laguiri]

As someone who lives very near Vancouver, I live in Victoria (on the island) it's not that cold, it's pretty much the same as the climate as where I lived last year, Asturias, Spain!! However housing in Vancouver is supposed to be really expensive. As for cultural diversity, Van has a reputation for having a lot of oriental-asians particularily Chinese. However I believe Toronto is apparently the most multicultural city in the world. As for cleanliness, well here in B.C. people tend to be very environment friendly, lots of old hippies hahah.

[ValenciaSon]

I understand that Vancouver has the largest Vietnamese community except for San Jose, California.