subjunctive question

[landlady]

Hope this is in the correct forum.....

I have just started learning the subjunctive, my teacher is putting me in a more advanced class next week and I'm panicing as I know I'm going to struggle and don't want to hold the others in that class up who have been working on the present subjunctive for several weeks now. He has given me a private lesson on it, but so far, only given me some examples of when you would use it as he didn't want to overwhelm me with too many. I have a list of sentences to work on and translate using it.

The ones I am having problems with are these:
We won't be able to tell her what he said unless we see her.

I think I use it after unless (ver verb), ie.
No podremos decirla que dijo a no ser que la vea.
but do I use it on the tell her bit too? (decir)

Another is:
I won't be able to rest until we get to Madrid.

He didn't tell me if I use it with until, but Im guessing that I do and use it with (descansar) so would it be correct as:

No podré descanse hasta llegaremos a Madrid - or should it be after the until (llegar)
No podré descansar hasta llegeremos a Madrid?

Any help, tips, good websites etc. on learning and practising the present subjunctive would be appreciated.
thank-you. http://img115.exs.cx/img115/1319/2x25kf.gif

[landlady]

Just thinking this through - it can't be on the descansar can it because it has to be in the infinitive ? http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209050.gif

[timg]

We won't be able to tell her what he said unless we see her.
...
I think I use it after unless (ver verb), ie.
No podremos decirla que dijo a no ser que la vea.
but do I use it on the tell her bit too? (decir)

Another is:
I won't be able to rest until we get to Madrid.
...
No podré descanse hasta llegaremos a Madrid - or should it be after the until (llegar)
No podré descansar hasta llegeremos a Madrid?


Just thinking this through - it can't be on the descansar can it because it has to be in the infinitive ? http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209050.gif

You're getting there! You're right in saying that you don't apply it to the infinitive (decirla (should be decirle) and descansar).

You'll also notice that the subjunctive is often used in a subordinate clause introduced by the word que. A subordinate clause replaces what would otherwise be a much simpler phrase (a noun or similar simple element) when necessary (to express extra conditions or complex conditions, usually involving a second verb).

eg:
"no puedo hacerlo hasta el martes" - normal
"no puedo hacerlo hasta que venga mi madre" - with the subordinate clause.

Take a peek at http://timandangela.org.uk/spanish/ lesson 27ff. I'm sure there are other (better) explanations out there (in English, too!)

Some googling about subordinate clauses or 'frases subordinadas' might help, too.

Have fun! ;)

[Marina]

¡Animo!, ¡tu puedes con esto y mucho más!

For the first sentence:

Instead of using decir twice you can use contar so it doesn't sound so repetitive
Also "unless WE see her" is plural so it should be veamos instead of vea.

No podremos contarle lo que (el) dijo a no ser que la veamos

For the second sentence the second option is nearly correct, but the second verb should be lleguemos

No podré descansar hasta que lleguemos a Madrid.

[landlady]

Thank you, that was very helpful and I shall look at that link timg. Using contar is a better idea too. Learning that the present subjunctive of llegar changes the spelling to eu is a bit of a headache though :eek: I will never remember that. Looking it up in my verb book, I see it also changes for the first person in the preterit.

[greytop]

Thank you, that was very helpful and I shall look at that link timg. Using contar is a better idea too. Learning that the present subjunctive of llegar changes the spelling to eu is a bit of a headache though :eek: I will never remember that. Looking it up in my verb book, I see it also changes for the first person in the preterit.

Try and say it out loud without the "u" and it does not work. The u makes the g hard again when it is followed by e.
So llegé sounds wrong - hence llegué - but llega, llegaron, llegado are fine

[greytop]

A few useful links for Spanish grammar - each has it's own strengths, have fun deciding what they are.

Links to resources, York university (http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/ltc/lfa/spanishgrammar.htm)
Spanish language lessons (http://www.cuyamaca.edu/ddetwile/Resources/spanishgrammar.asp)in grammar
Reglas grammaticales (http://www.indiana.edu/%7Ecall/reglas.html) Indiana university
Study Spanish (http://www.studyspanish.com/tutorial.htm) site tutorial Learn Spanish

Sorry if these have been posted before but seemed like a good place to do it again;)

[landlady]

Thanks greytop, good tip on saying it out loud - I will visit those links tomorrow. I have been studying the subjunctive for several hours now and it is starting to make some sense (I think) I'm going to my last lesson with my previous group in a minute, no subjunctive tense to do tonight thank goodness. I will miss them, we have had some good giggles in the class, but its time to step out of the comfort zone and push myself in the more advanced group.

[omeyas]

. I have been studying the subjunctive for several hours now and it is starting to make some sense (I think) .

I have been studying it on and off for years, and it still causes problems! :)
Once you have learnt to sucessfully conjugate the verbs "en el maldito subjuntivo" it's then the problem of when to use it! Some cases are obvious, others not so obvious. There are lots of set phrases that use the subjunctive, others like "aunque" that do and don't depending on context. It's not easy for us Brits, it's a tense we rarely use, and I don't think there are any short cuts, it just takes a lot of work.:confused: But you'll find that things start to drop into place, and when people tell you that your Spanish has improved a lot, it begins to seem worth it. It's certainly "doable", just takes time and effort, and you sound keen, so that's half the battle.

[cubix]

Ahh I had an awesome packet that went super in depth, I will see if I can dig it up to give you some tips. The biggest things with the subjunctive(and spanish for that matter) is that really you just have to practice it enough to where it becomes normal, becuase we really don;t use it in english(yes it's there, but when was the last time you used it in normal conversation.

There is a nice acronym that I learned when I first started the Subjunctive, let me find it also....

[landlady]

I look forward to it cubix, I need all the help I can get.

[lifeinperu]

Just the word makes chills run down my spine!

I made a major breakthrough with Subjunctive when I finally realized that it's a mood. It's got a whole different feel to it than indicative mood. And the bottom line is . . . it takes a while before you can get the feel of it. In the meantime, you gotta keep doing exactly what you are doing. Study. Learn the rules. Practice, practice, practice.

Here's a free video download (http://www.lulu.com/content/496969) using some subjunctive. It might help you start tuning your ear to the subjunctive.

[Brian]

For me, the most frustrating bit is when I use the subjunctive in a sentence that I feel should have it, and the wife says, "no, no subjunctive there." And I ask why. She replies, "Well, it just doesn't sound right to me."

Back to the drawing boards, eh? :rolleyes: