Where not to go...

[spanishlearner]

I tried to learn Spanish and have tried different schools with very different results.

I am myself a language teacher and have a pretty good idea what modern and good teaching looks like. Here a short summary of my experiences:

International House:
I had different teachers at IH of which one was good. I was there during the summer and I heard that some of the regular personal might have been on vacation. I also attended a teacher training course in which it became clear, that the methodology that is taught in IH is modern and oriented on communication.
Conclusion: good school with also has some bad teacher (like every other school in the world).

Escuela oficial de idiomas: Basically for free, 2 hours a day, therefor apply. There are usually more applications than places. Read the instructions carfully, it is a little bit of paperwork.

Universidad Complutense: Teaching here is total crap! Well, if you like sitting in a classroom and hearing somebody talk about grammar for 3 hours it is not that bad. But I have not found anybody here who knew at least a little about teaching languages. The only!!! form of exercises I have done at this place are gap filling activities. I still wonder how they dare to offer classes like that at a university. After all there should be a reputation to loose, right?
Conclusion: outrageous that this can happen at a university, where modern teaching should not just be used but DEVELOPED. The place where academic excellence is formed is certainly not Complutense.

[Ben]

Thanks for the tips! I learned Spanish at International House Madrid on various occasions and was generally happy, especially in the last course I attended, when I studied for the DELE Superior exam with a great teacher called Naomi.

[Marina]

Universities lenguages departments are appolling. My sister is attending to the Universidad Autonoma de Madrid (UAM), recently she went to fill in the application to attend to English classes and she found out that the higher level they had was First Certificate (Cambridge Exam) - which is more or less the level they teach in the last year of highschool. So what is the point then to have a lenguage department!!!

[rod]

I spent 28 weeks in International House schools over the last year, the last 18 at Clic in Sevilla. Overall I was very happy with them - I was lucky to have two extremely committed and effective teachers while I was there. But I think inevitably (especially if you are there for a long time) you will have problems at some point or other and the measure of a good language school is how they are able to deal with that. For example, on a couple of occasions at Clic during the 18 weeks I felt I badly needed to change the classes I was in (not actually because of the teacher), I went to the Director of Studies, said what the problems were, and they were able to accommodate a change of classes without any problem.

I was thinking of drafting a list of tips about Spanish language schools based on my own experience (I doubt that many people here have spent quite so long in them as me!). Would anybody be interested?

[Ben]

I was thinking of drafting a list of tips about Spanish language schools based on my own experience (I doubt that many people here have spent quite so long in them as me!). Would anybody be interested?
Definitely! If you put it in a new thread in this section that would be fantastic!

[que]

Definitely Rod, very interested to hear.

Out of interest then, you spent 28 weeks in a language school? around 7 months? What was your level before, and what is it now?

I would like to hear. Also, i went to a language school for 3 weeks, it was fantastic, but everyone just wanted to speak English with me, although they were all really cool people, this was a slight issue. Im also wondering where would be a good place to go, and how to avoid speaking English, whilst gaining friends that you could speak in English in if you felt you wanted the break.

[Rizzo La Rata]

Hola!

spanishlearner:
As you are a language teacher yourself, could you give some hints, tips or some sources on "modern methodology"? I ask because I take classes myself, but I do not like the way it is taught. Since I know the teacher quite well I might convince her way of teaching a little bit.

rod:
Yes, I'd also be very interested in you're tips.

André

[gary]

I was thinking of drafting a list of tips about Spanish language schools based on my own experience (I doubt that many people here have spent quite so long in them as me!). Would anybody be interested?


yes please - I am thinking of enrolling in the summer for a short course and any advice that allows me to get good value for money would be great

[edespagede]

Is without going to any formal classes at all. Start with one of the better computer learning programs. The one I used, began with Spanish and stayed in Spanish, offering you various images (screeens) to go along with a particular phrase. For example, "El muchacho esta nadando", with four different choices, a boy jumping, a girl jumping, a boy swimming (the correct answer), and a girl swimming. When you are right, you move on to the next question, when wrong, you keep trying until you pick the right image. I found the method to be extremely effective. After the basic, intermediate, and advanced course, you will be can start reading dual-language books, listening to podcasts, etc.

For me, the key has been finding interesting material with which to practice and learn, not boring, school book stuff. For example, I like Earnest Hemingway's books. His "The Old Man and the Sea" can be found in both English and Spanish versions. One of my first projects was to read the Spanish version, referring back to the English version when I needed help. For even simpler reading, I got a book of fairy tales "Cuentos de hadas", reading them with the help of a Spanish/English dictionary.

Now all of my reading for pleasure is done in Spanish. I still refer frequently to my dictionary and Spanish verb handbook, but am doing so less and less.

After about 18 months from starting the first computer program, I'm now able to hold conversations with Spanish speakers on just about any topic, even over the phone, which I find particularly challenging.

I've looked at a few books on grammar which helped a little, but I think the best way to learn is just listen, read, and speak the language everyday until through repetition it just "sounds right".

[omeyas]

Definitely Rod, very interested to hear.

Out of interest then, you spent 28 weeks in a language school? around 7 months? What was your level before, and what is it now?



I would think even if he started at a very basic level, after 7 months studying in Spain, he should be extremely fluent. After 7 months , even without a language school, should be enough to learn quite a bit. I remember I did a 2 week course, and the marjority of the students on the course had already been studying for 6 months, and they were pretty good!

[rod]

Out of interest then, you spent 28 weeks in a language school? around 7 months? What was your level before, and what is it now?
I would think even if he started at a very basic level, after 7 months studying in Spain, he should be extremely fluent. After 7 months , even without a language school, should be enough to learn quite a bit. I remember I did a 2 week course, and the marjority of the students on the course had already been studying for 6 months, and they were pretty good!

Before I went to Spain I'd been doing evening classes for a year in a University continuing education department. I'd done a fair amount of grammar (up to the indefinido and perfecto, for example) but hardly any conversation practice. So I did have some basic grammar (on the department's scale A-H I was supposed to have passed B). But my conversation skills when I started in Spain were more or less nil.

Afterwards, indeed, well before the end of the 28 weeks I had covered all the grammar (all the tenses, uses of subjunctive etc) and the grammar classes that I had progressed into were really more about advanced usage. I still have to look a lot of things up and keep revising my grammar but I think I have a very good understanding of the principles. Also I think I have developed very good reading and writing skills, have a wide vocabulary (including colloquialisms/slang), understanding of regional accents, differences between castilian and latin american use, and so on. So grammar fine, I would say higher advanced.

But extreme fluency in conversation - no! Fluency perhaps - by the end I had got to the stage where I was thinking first in Spanish and I could easily communicate well enough to live there. Some examples: I could hold a meeting in Spanish with work contacts at the University; at one stage I had to deal with a difficult medical problem in Spanish because neither the staff or the doctor spoke English; and most of the time when socialising with other students who spoke English we did try to avoid speaking it. But I have to say that by the end speaking Spanish still did not come as naturally as I would have hoped it did at the beginning. Ben says nine months to become fluent, and I think he's probably right, I could have done with another month or two. So on conversation, lower advanced, maybe even just higher intermediate.

I think if you are devoting to a lot of time and money to studying in a language school there is a danger of having unrealistic/overambitious expectations of how your language ability will develop that can just lead to frustration if you think you are failing them, and can just lead to putting yourself under too much pressure (which isn't helpful). Different people acquire different language skills at different speeds, indeed I found it was a process of ascents and plateaus, some weeks I thought I was making massive progress, others if anything, going backwards.

I'm now back in Spanish classes in the same continuing education department as I started at at Level G on an A-H scale, and that is about the right level. So in terms of level, my time in Spain could be said to be equivalent to four years of evening classes in the UK.

Anyway I will start a new thread with some tips when I've had a chance to think about it a bit more.

[que]

Thanks Rod, thats helpful.

How many hourse a week/day were you doing?

I was just thinking, and its an interesting point. If you had 6 months/1 year to spend in spain, how could you make the most of it in terms of aiming to become fluent.

By that i mean, if you spend 6-7 months at a language school, are you really in a true spanish environment? Although you are obviously studying the language, after a certain part, the fluency and understanding comes through usage. And through my experience, in these schools you are in an environment of non-natives. So the ability to converse in your mother tounge is easier, than if say, you worked in a shop in a district just outside of the centre, where you are less likely to meet foreigners.

Ideally i would like to take a year off work in the next few years, and always think to myself if i took that year out, how i would spend it. How many months at a langauge school, would getting a part-time job somewhere help, etc.

Any thoughs?

[omeyas]

With a language school, I think you get out of it, what you put into it. If you attend the classes, say 4 hours a day, and then spend the rest of the day speaking English, then obviously you´ll not benefit as much as say, staying with a Spanish family and speaking the lingo for a good part of the day. If, as you suggest, you could get a part time job, that would be great, you´d really benefit. Plus, 6 months in a language school doesn´t come cheap! The fees plus the accommodation will come to a considerable sum. It works out cheaper the longer you are booking for obviously, but I have just enquired about 2 weeks for my wife and I, and it worked out about €750. That's no flights or hotels, so £500 for just the classes.

[rod]

Thanks Rod, thats helpful.

How many hourse a week/day were you doing?

I was just thinking, and its an interesting point. If you had 6 months/1 year to spend in spain, how could you make the most of it in terms of aiming to become fluent.

By that i mean, if you spend 6-7 months at a language school, are you really in a true spanish environment? Although you are obviously studying the language, after a certain part, the fluency and understanding comes through usage. And through my experience, in these schools you are in an environment of non-natives. So the ability to converse in your mother tounge is easier, than if say, you worked in a shop in a district just outside of the centre, where you are less likely to meet foreigners.

Ideally i would like to take a year off work in the next few years, and always think to myself if i took that year out, how i would spend it. How many months at a langauge school, would getting a part-time job somewhere help, etc.

Any thoughs?

The basic is 20 hours a week, 4 hours a day in the mornings (one grammar class, one conversation class). Add in homework, intercambios, extra school activities and going out in the evening and that's more than enough to occupy you. You can do superintensive courses consisting of the above plus an extra session in the afternoon every day but that's really best for those who are there for 3-4 weeks or so.

I wouldn't be bothered about trying to remain in a pure Spanish environment. If you're moving to a big Spanish city on your own you need all the help you can get to get integrated, wherever it comes from (whether staying with a Spanish family; sharing accommodation with Spanish students; intercambios; teachers and other students in Spanish language schools; working as an English teacher or other work; Irish pubs; whatever networks are available). I found my Spanish teachers indispensable sources of local knowledge: what I learnt about Sevilla from them was almost as important as what I learned about the language. Being at the school helped me find roots in the city.

If you're there for six months, you could spend all that time in a language school. I knew about half a dozen students who did at the same time as me. But none for any more. I think what I did is the limit - I loved it but I could not have spent another week more - apart from anything else I was mentally exhausted. So if you were there for a year I think you would need to find something else to do as well.

Finally I would just say I loved the time I was in Spain, and if you're in a position to do a similar thing, I would strongly recommend it. Problem is: could you settle again when you got back?!

[Ashley]

I've just gotten back from a week in Spain (working on a trip report to post later) and I'm now very very sold on the idea of moving to Spain when I graduate this June. While ultimately I'd like to work as a chemist in Spain, I've realized that I need a few months of intensive language classes before I could start any job, except teaching English. Since I have an American passport, a year-long student visa would be the best way for me to get in the country, period. Not that I want to spend a year at a school full time, or that I could afford to, but I believe its better to get a student visa for a year, than try to keep renewing a 3 month tourist visa...

So, I'm really interested to hear about any experience that people have had with language schools, how to make the most of the time, etc. Has anyone had any experience with programs like this (http://www.workandvolunteer.com/programmes/lang_spain/index.html)? Working as a live-in language instructor? Teaching a family English for 15 hours a week in return for room and board seems like a pretty good way to offset some of the cost of attending a language school.

[rod]

I was thinking of drafting a list of tips about Spanish language schools based on my own experience (I doubt that many people here have spent quite so long in them as me!). Would anybody be interested?


Last November I offered to write this piece, a few said they were indeed interested, but then after replying to some queries as you can read above, because of a busy period at work I never actually got round to doing it:blush:.

Finally I've made a start. As I go on a bit, I've decided to post this stuff to my blog (http://rodsspanishstuff.blogspot.com) rather than here. It is going to take me a few instalments to write it. I hope that anybody who is thinking of doing a medium or long stay in a Spanish language school might find it interesting/useful - and certainly I'm interested in comments here or on the blog from anyone who has already had similar experience in Spanish language schools:)

[richardksa]

I get lots of vacations, almost as many as teachers(!) and have wondered about attending a school. But could an advanced beginner (he said hopefully) like me benefit from a three or four week course?

[Damian Corrigan]

Clic in Sevilla



I also studied there and agree completely with Rod.

CLIC is a big school, so they always have other classes available if you want to change. This is why I always recommend big schools over schools with 'good reputations'. A school is only as good as its teachers and teachers come and go with such frequency that the only way you can (almost) guarantee good teachers is by going to a big school where there has to be someone who is good!

Damian

[rod]

I get lots of vacations, almost as many as teachers(!) and have wondered about attending a school. But could an advanced beginner (he said hopefully) like me benefit from a three or four week course?

I would say absolutely. I think when you start in a language school it takes a week or maybe 2 to get into it. Its all subjective, but I would say spells of 3, 4 or 5 weeks are ideal, more than that, I didn't think you get quite so much out of it per week. Also for that number of weeks you could study on a super-intensive basis: ie an afternoon session as well as the morning one.

[rod]

I also studied there and agree completely with Rod.

CLIC is a big school, so they always have other classes available if you want to change. This is why I always recommend big schools over schools with 'good reputations'. A school is only as good as its teachers and teachers come and go with such frequency that the only way you can (almost) guarantee good teachers is by going to a big school where there has to be someone who is good!

Damian


Interesting - when were you there?


I agree that staff turnover is an issue with many schools, but to be fair to Clic, I think its better than most on staff retention. Certainly I got the impression that both my main teachers had been there for some time.

[richardksa]

I have looked at the "intensive" idea, but wondered if I would retain all that I had been taught. The old grey cells don't communicate as they used to. I saw one school advertise an "over fifties" course, but it seemed to rotate around trips to wineries, rather than class work.

[gary]

I get lots of vacations, almost as many as teachers(!) and have wondered about attending a school. But could an advanced beginner (he said hopefully) like me benefit from a three or four week course?

I'll let you know!! I am going for three weeks to Barcelona this summer... I'm really quite excited about it - I want to consolidate my grammar and extend my vocab - but just being in Barça for almost a month will do!!

[Acosta]

Nice start on a Blog Rod.

I do find for myself I am not on the quick side of language acquisition and any and all sources, experiences etc are great encouragement.

Thanks

[rod]

I have looked at the "intensive" idea, but wondered if I would retain all that I had been taught. The old grey cells don't communicate as they used to. I saw one school advertise an "over fifties" course, but it seemed to rotate around trips to wineries, rather than class work.

I found the mornings-only courses quite enough to deal with most of the time, particularly in the first week or two. You need to have time to do other things: homework, meetings with intercambios, etc. But I met a couple of people who were doing the superintensive courses for 5-8 weeks or so and seemed to be getting quite a lot out of it.

I met quite a few 'over 50s' on my courses - none of them I don't think would have wanted to be on one of those courses, nor felt they needed to be on one.


Nice start on a Blog Rod.




Thanks:). Keep checking back!

[Damian Corrigan]

Interesting - when were you there?


I agree that staff turnover is an issue with many schools, but to be fair to Clic, I think its better than most on staff retention. Certainly I got the impression that both my main teachers had been there for some time.

I studied there in July/August/September 2002

I agree their staff retention is good. I went back to visit in the summer and my teacher Alberto was still there.

Damian

[Jan]

I´ve just completed the first week of a 4 hour a day 1:1 intermediate
course in Cusco Peru.
I´m sure I am older than you Richard but I am finding that a lot is
going into this old and tired brain.
It may help that my teacher bears a striking resemblance to Johnny
Depp:D
Jan

[Acosta]

I saw one school advertise an "over fifties" course, but it seemed to rotate around trips to wineries, rather than class work.


Wineries, that's my spead. Where do I sign up :):):)

[Dougal1]

There doesnt seem to be much negative feeling on many schools and from my experience the way most schools are run is quite commendable. I also know friends of all ages who have mainly had similar positive experiences. Seems the Spaniards know what theyre doing :)

As Ive mentioned before, Ive used a service called Estudia-Espana to book courses. They have always been impartial and extremely helpful with more than just advising on schools and courses (for example they helped me with a train plan!). And the best thing is that they are actually cheaper than the schools they represent... For my part I can recommend Escuela Mediterraneo in Malaga and definitely Espanole in Valencia.

Keep the info coming by the way! This is an interesting thread...

[Damian Corrigan]

There doesnt seem to be much negative feeling on many schools



I'll burst that bubble then!

I've not studied here in Salamanca, but I've heard quite a few bad things. It seems that schools spring up all the time here to capitalise on Salamanca's history of being (a) a centre of academic excellence and (b) home to the purest Spanish in the country*. Schools therefore struggle to survive and have been described to me as 'money grabbing'.

My girlfriend studies in a class where 50% is Brazilian and 50% is Asian (Chinese or Japanese). Not the most logical of class arrangements in my opinion, considering Portuguese speakers can understand Spanish almost from day one and Asian students struggle with Latin based languages in general. Most people I've spoken to have grumbled about some element of their schools.


*Can I just dispell these two myths:
(a) Salamanca's university is one of the oldest in Europe, but it has fallen from grace. It is now an above average university in Spain, but by no means the best.
(b) The Spanish spoken here has fallen a long way from its pure origins. The 'Madriz, ciudaz" way of speaking is extremely strong here, stronger even than in Madrid (and the locals arrogantly claim this is the only way anyone in the country speaks these days). Some of them even lisp the 'c' when it is impossible, such as in the word 'correcto', which oddly comes out as 'correzto'. I've heard two different people say this - when I questioned the second on it, she said it was the way everyone speaks in Salamanca.


Damian

[Nicole]

I studied here last year and had a great experience not only in the language school - Escuela Delengua but also in the city as a whole. It is an absolutely beautiful and unique place to study Spanish. The language school is only very small and i would definitely recommend it. Being small and independent they are commited to each and every student and classes are given in a friendly and informal way.
I chose to come to Granada for four weeks when my University term finished last year as my Spanish wasn't really improving at all - I only had 2 hours of Spanish a week.
During my time at the school I learnt so much probably more than i had learnt during my time in University! My confidence also improved and I wasn't worried or embarrased when talking to Spanish people. I made so many friends there from all around the world and we still keep in touch now - in Spanish of course!
If anybody is looking to study Spanish I would recommend you have a look at Delengua (www.delengua.es (http://www.delengua.es)) as you will no doubt learn so much here and you can visit the wide range of places of interest in Granada. The school also organises free daily activities so you will get a chance to explore this amazing and historical city.