El Imperfecto del Subjuntivo Aaaagh!!

[Jan]

Just started this. ¡Es un pesadillo!
I note there are 2 choices of ending!
-ra and -se.
Please can anyone tell me whether one
type of ending is used more than the other
in spoken castellano or are they interchangeable?
Why would one use -ra rather then -se and vice-
versa :confused:
Aaaagh!
Jan

[Ben]

I believe it is entirely up to the speaker, and has no effect on meaning at all. I have always used -ara, Marina tends to use -ase. I would pick one and stick with it!

[omeyas]

There´s some serious info here, (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0018-2133%28195609%2939%3A3%3C345%3AS-A-%22V%3E2.0.CO%3B2-1&size=LARGE)
but like Ben, I opt for the -RA ending. So long as you know they both exist, I'd opt for one (the-RA endings seem much more common to me) and concentrate on that

[Jan]

Muchas gracias a Ben y Frank.
I may choose the -se endings as
I've found with the -ra endings I'm
getting mixed up with the endings for
the future tense although I know they
have different roots and are spelt differently.
Please tell me there are no more tenses after
this:eek:

[rod]

There are more tenses after this, but they're all compound. Which is easier.

[cubix]

When I was first learning the Imperfect Subjubctive, the teacher told us to pick one and stick with it for the rest of our life, becasue if we try to mix the two it will just get more confusing. I picked ra, it just seemed easier to remember, and sounds cool ;)

Does anyone know why there are two endings?

[greytop]

W
Does anyone know why there are two endings?
According to the WordReference forum it's all down to those b----y Romans

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Re: Imperfect subjunctive
They were derived from different Latin tenses. (http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Spanish/Grammar/Spanish-Verb-Tenses_Simple.html#First_Imperfect_Subjunctive) The -se- imperfect was originally a pluperfect.

[tad]

says they are interchangeable but mentions ....The -ra form is more frequent everywhere,is gaining ground,and in some parts of Latin America has all but replaced the -se form.

[Nic]

In my Spanish class in the next couple of weeks we are due to start the Imperative Subjunctive and by the looks of things I'm in for a great time with it :rolleyes:

[Bolboreta]

Actually, they were both pluperfects, but -ra ending comes from the Latin indicative pluperfect. And it still has that value in some literary texts (taken from here (http://culturitalia.uibk.ac.at/hispanoteca/Grammatik-Stichworte/Gram%C3%A1tica%20espa%C3%B1ola/Imperfecto%20subjuntivo%20literario.htm)):
«Aunque por su significado las formas -ra y -se son equivalentes en la lengua moderna, no siempre pueden sustituirse entre sí. La primera procede del pluscuamperfecto de indicativo latino (amaveram); la segunda, del pluscuamperfecto de subjuntivo (amavissem). Una y otra absorbieron además significados propios de otros tiempos del indicativo o del subjuntivo respectivamente. La identificación de significados entre amara y amase es el resultado de un largo proceso histórico que los ha ido aproximando progresivamente, sin que haya llegado a ser tan completa que permita permutarlos entre sí en todos los casos, como veremos a continuación:
Amara, como pluscuamperfectode indicativo equivalente a había amado, predomina en los textos literarios medievales. Según los cómputos estadísticos que se han realizado, parece que en el siglo XV se inicia el predominio de amara con valor subjuntivo, el cual sique avanzando en los escritores del Siglo de Oro. En la segunda mitad del siglo XVII son ya muy poco frecuentes los ejemplos de amara (= había amado) como indicativo. Los escritores de fines del siglo XVIII y los románticos, por imitación de los textos antiguos y especialmente del Romancero, restauran el uso primitivo en muchos casos. Esta restauración literaria, ajena a la lengua hablada, persiste más o menos debilitada hasta nuestros días:
No es ya Montevideo la ciudad humilde que él dejara al partir. (J. E. Rodó)
Clarín, el buen maestro, fracasó también en la ayuda que me prestara. (Azorín)
A San Fracisco de Asís le habrá dado un vuelco el corazón en el pecho; aquel pecho abierto al amor de los animales, que en verso piadoso cantara el pagano Rubén. (C. J. Cela)
They're the same thing on current Spanish though. Unless you're Galician like me:

Los empleos de –ra como ‘pluscuamperfecto de indicativo’, por otro lado, son característicos del español peninsular noroccidental siendo las estructuras más arcaizantes de sistemas verbales como el del gallego, que han conservado el valor etimológico de cantara (< lat. cantaveram, ‘pluscuamperfecto de indicativo’), las que se imponen en el español establecido en estas regiones. Nótese que las construcciones periodísticas del tipo
El jugador que marcara el gol de la victoria.
no suenan incorrectas al oído lingüístico de un gallegohablante, mientras que sí disuena cualquier aparición de cantase con este pretendido valor, lo que constituye una prueba del carácter indicativo de estos usos particulares de la forma en -ra. [...]
I grew up hearing the -ra ending as an indicative tense, I and still use it that way if I'm distracted (I try not to, because it's not correct and it confuses the hell out of anybody not from my area). As it says there, I can't use the -se for the indicative pluperfect, and many times I have to check whether only one or the two versions sound right to be able to figure out which tense is the correct one :blush:

For this very reason I always use the -se ending when I need the past subjuntive, otherwise I might get confused. However, I'm pretty sure Galicians win the "weirdests Spanish verb usages" contest (we completely forget there are such things as compound verbs), so I won't even try to tell anyone which one (-se/-ra) they should use.

[Bacalao]

se (literatura) vs. ra (conversacion)
has anyone else been taught this way???

[88keys07]

When I spent some time in Panama, one guy told me that over there they us the se and ra endings for different meanings and for different situations. So, it can also depend on the country or region that you are in. But apart from that, I believe that everyone else is correct: it is interchangeable.

[tad]

How about these examples from Harry Potter 5 then? It would seem there are circumstances where you might mix them.

Yes I know I asked in another thread but nobody cared :(

Interesting construction for all you grammarians out there:

No sabía cómo lo sabía, pero lo sabía: Voldemort, estuviera donde estuviese, hiciera lo que hiciese, estaba de muy mal humor

wherever he was, whatever he was doing I suppose: I haven't seen this before -is it a standard phrase, using the two subjunctive forms together like that?
The next page also has one:

Cabía la possibilidad de que Voldemort estuviera furioso porque todavía no había podido hacerse con el arma, fuera cual fuese (?)

[eldeano]

If at first you don't succeed....

[greytop]

If at first you don't succeed.......fail again

[angeltreats]

I think a lot of times if you've got two imperfect subjunctives in one sentence, you'll use the two different forms. Probably just to make it sound better more than anything else.

Personally I tend to use -ra because to me -se sounds weird. I would probably never say "si hubiese whatever". But I might write it if I had already had a -ra in the same sentence.

Reading back over this, I don't even know if it makes any sense - it did in my head though!

[Don]

I think a lot of times if you've got two imperfect subjunctives in one sentence, you'll use the two different forms. Probably just to make it sound better more than anything else.

I agree. It's a stylistic choice in this case. Here's a snippet from El Príncipe de la Niebla:

"Max esperaba que ambos le contradijesen o que con palabras de sensatez
que él no acertaba a encontrar, le tranquilizasen y le hicieran ver que sus
inquietudes no eran sino producto de un día demasiado largo, en el que
habían sucedido demasiadas cosas que él se había tomado demasiado en
serio. Sin embargo, nada de eso sucedió."

In this song by Ricardo Arjona he switches back and forth when it suits the song.

Si yo fuera

Si yo fuera diputado
Seria un tipo bien intencionado
Promoveria la industria
Sin olvidar a chepe el del mercado

Si fuese cardenal
Censuraria el sermon si se repite
Conseguiria una novia
Para no andar jugando al escondite
Por eso no soy
Ni diputado ni cardenal
Soy marioneta del carnaval

De ser rey de inglaterra
Empezaria por devolver las tierras
Que se las han robado
Justo a los que no pueden darles guerra

Si fuese Demi Moore
No habria proposicion indecorosa
Por menos de un millon
Me hubiese ido a acostar con cualquire cosa
Por eso no soy
Rey de inglaterra ni Demi Moore
Soy aprendiz de cantautor

Buscando historias en los cocktailes
Puritanas en los burdeles
Buscando genios en los cuarteles
Mordiendo tiras en los retenes
Buscando flores en la basura
Buscando ilesos en las dictaduras
Buscando humanos en las caricaturas
Buscando enanos con estatura

Si yo volviera ser niño
Seguro no le haria caso a nadie
Te heredan sus complegos
Iglesia y hasta equipo de futbol

Si fuese lo que soy
Seguro pensaria esta todo bien
Que es lo que puedo hacer
Si ya soy pasagero de este tren
Por eso no soy
Ni niño ni lo que soy
Soy otro plato mas en el mantel

Buscando historias en los cocktailes
Puritanas en los burdeles
Buscando genios en los cuarteles
Mordiendo tiras en los retenes
Buscando flores en la basura
Buscando ilesos en las dictaduras
Buscando humanos en las caricaturas
Buscando enanos con estatura

[evelyn0666]

I was taught that the -se endings are much more formal, and so tend to get used mostly in written texts rather than speech, especially in older texts. And I think that's certainly true where I am (Peru) - I think I've only heard a -se ending once in the last 5 years!! But perhaps it depends on the country, or even differences between Latin American Spanish and Spanish from Spain. I think the -se endings are used more in Spain than LAM...what do people think?

[angeltreats]

Actually, I really don't think I notice things like that in speech, only when reading. Is that weird? I haven't been to LA but I've been to various parts of Spain and used to work in Gran Canaria and I couldn't tell you whether I've heard -se used in speech at all.

I'll have to be more observant!

[kari]

Just started this. ¡Es un pesadillo!
I note there are 2 choices of ending!
-ra and -se.
Please can anyone tell me whether one
type of ending is used more than the other
in spoken castellano or are they interchangeable?
Why would one use -ra rather then -se and vice-
versa :confused:
Aaaagh!
Jan

hola,,debe decir: es una pesadilla..!

suerte;)

[jubilee]

se (literatura) vs. ra (conversacion)
has anyone else been taught this way???


Like Bacalao and Evelyn above, I was taught that they are interchangeable but that -se tends to be more formal and more the written form and -ra tends to be more the spoken form. After being taught that, that is what I see/have heard. So, interesting to read in this thread that it ain't necessarily so..but perhaps there is a bit of a tendency that way....?