Getting "Lippy"

[Pepino]

Here's a question for you all.... I've been struggling along with my spanish for a couple of years now and have reached a level of reading and writing that means I can get by fairly easily with written texts, and therefore my actual "enjoyment" level of spanish has shot up and is spurring me on to learn more. All good so far... But there's one problem that I seem to be hanging on to longer than I'd like and I wonder if it's a normal part of the language learning curve or whether (and there's no easy way to say this) I might be mildly abnormal :confused: ...

Basically, I still have massive problems just getting my mouth around most Spanish words when saying them out loud. I can chatter away to myself in my head semi-fluently, but the second my gob opens and actual sounds of words are required, it all goes belly-up and I suddenly sound like a beginner again.

Is it the norm when learning a language that speech skills come last after reading/writing (with listening skills kicking-in somewhere in between)?

I also wonder if the exact opposite is true in situations where absolute beginners have suddenly found themselves surrounded by Spanish voices? Do they become orally fluent first? I guess it would stand to reason, no?

[Polly]

Just a guess here, but might it be that you aren't hearing the spoken language correctly to begin with?

Native speakers of every language tend to run individual words together, use verbal shorthand, and local idioms, etc. That's what often makes understanding conversation so difficult for some learners, even those who can read with near fluency. The technical term is called elision:
— the omission of sounds as words are combined into phrases and sentences.

I met a taxi driver while on the Costa del Sol, who complained of this very thing. He spoke passable English - but allowed as he was quite frustrated and unsure of his own pronunciation, because he couldn't distinguish one word from the next when listening to us "Rapid speaking Englishers" :D
I told him I've often faced the same challenge -- when surrounded by
all-Spanish speakers. (I lived and worked in a large Hispanic community in Detroit many years ago - and struggled mightily to understand every-day conversations that I wasn't directly involved in)

Funny. My conversation with the Taxi driver was almost entirely in Spanish - and he was very cognizant of speaking slowly and clearly with me, so no problem that time!

Of course, nothing beats one-on-one personal communication and feedback, but there are several other ways to practice correct pronunciation on your own:

One possible solution to help you on your way: Seek out Spanish language newscasts - professional presenters tend to speak more distinctly and don't slur things so much. Try to emmulate them when you speak.

Another suggestion: Learn Spanish language songs -- find printed lyrics online and see / hear the difference between the printed words and what you are hearing while you learn to cantar en Espanol! (I learned to sing in Spanish before I started learning to speak it - didn't always understand what I was singing, but it helped tremendously with pronunciation).

Also - try revisitng those old language-lab tools on cassette or CD (or on the ipod!) -- the repeition can be nauseating when you already have the vocabulary down - but you'll be listening for pronunciation, as well.

Finally - I have a language program installed on my PC
"101 Languages of the World" . Along with other helpful interactive tools, the program has a feature where you can practice pronunciation by speaking into an external mic, plugged into your computer. The software "hears" you and grades accordingly.

[cubix]

One thing I found, is to learn(or review) the syllabification rules, it is helpful to be able to look at a word and determine where the emphasis will go.

I watch spanish televesion, here in the us, we get a few channels from Mexico, and I find that they speak really fast, sometimes I will turn on the subtitles(in spanish) i find that that helps a lot.

Greg

[Ben]

Is it the norm when learning a language that speech skills come last after reading/writing (with listening skills kicking-in somewhere in between)?

Something like this happens with young children as they learn their own native language. They will understand a lot more than they can speak and often hold back on speaking to a great extent until they know it is going to come out right. I saw an interesting documentary on it once...

Anyway, when I was starting out with Spanish I definitely found that different skills developed at different paces, and it all depends on which of these skills you are practicing most. For example, if you are reading a lot but not talking to anyone in Spanish then it would be natural for your reading ability to be way ahead.

The good news is that it is easy to boost the part that is lagging behind. My suggestion is to speak speak speak. Find an intercambio if you can, talk to yourself in the shower if you have to, and you will find that in no time your mouth knows how to deal with Spanish words and all the vocab you already have will start to pour out naturally and fluently. :)

[ValenciaSon]

Having spent a year in Spain when I was 8, I was a more fluent speaker. I achieved that fluency by being immersed in the language and culture during my stay. I came back to the US and my expressive fluency diminished over the years but found that my receptive fluency remained mostly intact. It makes me wonder if the expressive skills are the last and most difficult to develop and maintain.

[timg]

Basically, I still have massive problems just getting my mouth around most Spanish words when saying them out loud. I can chatter away to myself in my head semi-fluently, but the second my gob opens and actual sounds of words are required, it all goes belly-up and I suddenly sound like a beginner again.


It all comes down to practice again, I'm afraid. The fact is that speaking a different language often means that you have to form different shapes with the muscles of your mouth and tongue. It just takes time and practice to get over the strange feeling. I remember when I started speaking Spanish it was quite tiring to speak for more than a short time, not only due to mental strain but also due to mouth and tongue feeling tired.

You could try reading aloud when you're reading a Spanish book. And, of course, try to find Spanish speakers to talk with.

Good luck and have fun
Tim

[Pepino]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I've just spent a few hours this afternoon reading aloud to myself and, you're absolutely right, it is extremely exhausting, but in the absence of a Spanish speaker to converse with, it's not a bad second best. The elision issue is a problem in Spanish as it's pretty much the "official" way to speak the language, whereas I guess in English, we tend to do it to a lesser extent unless we're in informal situations, when suddenly, anything goes!

Another positive note is that the company I work for has opened an office in Barcelona, so I think I spy an intercambio on the horizon! :)

[Ben]

... in the absence of a Spanish speaker to converse with, it's not a bad second best...

You could try finding some Spaniards who are in town to learn English, and putting an ad up in their college for an intercambio - google revealed a couple of likely places (http://www.english-in-england.info/castellano/escuela_manchester.html)! You can't beat the intercambio! The company opportunity sounds great though, get to work on your boss!