Anti-american?

[acmench]

I just was over at 20minutos.com checking out the comments some people were making in response to the shooting yesterday at Virginia Tech. Sprinkled among the posts expressing outrage at the tragedy were a number of posts spouting rampant anti-Americanism, almost as if the college students deserved or should have expected this simply for being American. I was just wondering what the overall atmosphere is over there, especially for any Americans living in Madrid.

I was living there during 9/11 and, for the most part, Spanish people were interested mostly in what I, as an America, thought of it all. Certainly the global opinion of the US has changed in the past 5 years but has it gotten that bad? So bad that people think innocent kids deserve to die because of their citizenship?

Obviously those comments aren't necessarily the norm, but they are prevalent enough on 20minutos.com to detract from my excitement at moving to Madrid in 2 weeks. Will it be an uncomfortable environment for an American?

[ValenciaSon]

I understand it has become in vogue in the last years to adopt an anti-American sentiment and to view us all as gun-toting, ill-educated, arrogant monolithic entities. I don't suggest that all have those sentiments in Europe but it seems to be on the rise. Those who I have encountered in NFS seem to have avoided that mindset. I would brace myself for some eurosnobbery if I were you. Hopefully I am wrong.

[Markitos]

I think it won't be hard for you and for any other american in Madrid.

This is an interracial city.

Many people in Spain (left-wing policy) talk bad about americans (because Bush), but the same people (not ALL left-wing policy people!)talk bad about self spanish people too!

For example, if you go to the street with an american t-shirt in your country, you are a patriot. If I do the same in my country with a spanish t-shirt, they told I'm a fascist!! Incredible!
If you feel spanish colours here, you are a fascist, ultra-right wing policy, bad people...
Because they connect spanish flag colours with Francisco Franco.

It's complicated and you have to live in spain to understand it.

If you want to understand, you've to read a little about Francisco Franco and "La españa franquista".

[Edith]

I just was over at 20minutos.com checking out the comments some people were making in response to the shooting yesterday at Virginia Tech. Sprinkled among the posts expressing outrage at the tragedy were a number of posts spouting rampant anti-Americanism

Yes, some of the comments were utterly sickening, especially the ones about the professor who tried to save some of his students' lives! What ValenciaSon says is true, Eurosnobbery appears to be on the rise. As a European, this trend really worries me.

But it isn't only a trans-Atlantic problem. At the moment people from around the globe are 'circling the wagons', so to speak, shutting themselves off more than ever from those they do not like. Sad, very sad!

[richardksa]

I don't think it's Euro-snobbery. I think it's an uncultured, ignorant minority. It saddens me, but Europe has its share of red necks too.
Those Spaniards who voiced such sentiments could not have been the same as those who sent messages of condolence to the victims and families of the London Tube bombings.

[Isra]

I think most of the people here (at least in Madrid) wouldn't be rude to a north american just because he/she is north american. To be cruel, in these days, while talking about USA is more a simplistic way to express upset than a real person to person hate. There is a strong anti-american feelling because of the USA politics, that's real, but, in the other hand, it's not common to meet someone that makes you responsible of that.
I guess there is very few people that gets happy with such terrible things as what has happened in that college.

I think it's true that Spain is a very anti-american country, probably one of the most ones in Europe, but most of the people here realizes that that's in a international policy context and is a blurry feelling, not even a racist one.

What i try to say is that you shouldn't worry about how people will behave with you. :thumbs-up:

[jessica]

so that i'm not reiterating what everyone else has said, I'll just keep it simple....
unfortunately anti-american sentiments are alive and well in this world and a lot of them, i might add, with pretty good reasons. however, it still saddens me that people can generalize and stereotype in such a way.

I can't speak from experience, but I would hope that spaniards would reserve judgment until they got to know you a little better. from what i'm told, as long as you don't "flaunt" your americanism, you should be ok :)

[acmench]

I agree that most Spaniards are open to Americans as people. That was always my experience when I was living there (2001-2003). But I found that one of the first things people would ask was my opinion of George Bush. They were eager to hear me say that I didn't support the current government's policies so that they could agree and we could move past that.

In Spain, I've never had a truly bad experience with someone simply because of my nationality. But the vehemence of some of those posts shocked me and made me realize that I am moving far from "home."

[Edith]

But the vehemence of some of those posts shocked me and made me realize that I am moving far from "home."

Maybe it's best to stop reading those threads altogether. Unfortunately, the Internet has become a safe haven for lots of extremist nutcases of all races and nationalities who can now rave and rant in anonimity and with total impunity...

[pmo101]

On my first trip to Spain 10 years ago, I struck up a conversation with a local Spaniard, who, after learning that I was American, hotly remarked that "you people have no culture, and nothing of any value". Within a few minutes, he remarked how he loved Jazz, listed several American artists as being among his favorites, and was sporting a pair of Levi's 501's.

I've returned many times, even living in Madrid for a short time. I've found that being American (and I would consider myself a respectful, well-behaved and politically liberal American) always invited many disparaging remarks.

However, having said that, I will say that for the few negative (albeit noteworthy) experiences, they were exceeded by the very nice people that I met.

It is a shame that individuals can be 'tarred' by a large brush through bad experiences - this goes both ways: Spanish antipathy towards Americans and American antipathy towards Spaniards.

[Edith]

Within a few minutes, he remarked how he loved Jazz, listed several American artists as being among his favorites, and was sporting a pair of Levi's 501's.

;D ;D ;D

[Jimmy]

The kid who shot everyone wasn't even american - an overseas student I believe with a recent student visa to study there !

Gun control and ease of access to weapons is more of the issue !!!

[Jon Hundt]

people from one town talk bad about the people from the next town. There are distinct regional accents, languages/dialects, religious observances, characteristics and stereotypes, etc. All this in a little country where you can drive from one end to the other in an hour!

But then they seem to think that all 240 million Americans are exactly the same - uneducated gun-toting fundamentalist Christian Republican war-mongers.

[Jerezano]

Seeing how frequently these terrible events occur with scarcely a call from politicians to do something to try and bring an end to these tragedies, and seeing how an illegal president can win a second term after having launched and bungled an illegal war that has caused and will continue to cause world havoc, with no significant call to have him impeached from office, I can see how people, not just the Dutch, could have that opinion of the US.

[ValenciaSon]

But Americans are not a monolithic entity. And there have been efforts made for impeachment. Don't confuse the few corrupt policy makers with the 250 million citizens of the US who by majority voted against Bush and oppose the war.

[Edith]

I can see how people, not just the Dutch, could have that opinion of the US.

Hi Jerezano, I agree entirely with Jon Hundt... please re-read his post, what he says is so much to the point. Put yourself in the position of an American living abroad. Millions of Americans did not vote for Bush, yet they get all the flak too.

[Dave_K]

Just a technical point....the US population crossed the 300M mark sometime this past October (and we've added 1.6M since then, according to the Census Bureau's "Population Clock" http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html )

[timg]

Wow! you have been busy! :)

[jessica]

Edith: gosh, can we just clone your brain and insert your political sentiments inside everyone's head?! :cool: that's exactly how i feel, and i'm not just saying that because i'm an american. i wouldn't judge any nationality based solely who's in power. i mean, i didn't vote for bush and i hate it when i'm judged as if i did because i'm an american.

Hi Jerezano, I agree entirely with Jon Hundt... please re-read his post, what he says is so much to the point. Put yourself in the position of an American living abroad. Millions of Americans did not vote for Bush, yet they get all the flak too.

[djS]

You have people given out all the time from outher people to places
it happens


Just becasuse you one bad egg you dont trought them all out do you ?

Some world leaders are bigger gops then some
Some are like more then Outhers

As someone sayed to me befor you dont like all your Neighbours

jurdy

[Edith]

Edith: gosh, can we just clone your brain and insert your political sentiments inside everyone's head?! :cool: that's exactly how i feel, and i'm not just saying that because i'm an american. i wouldn't judge any nationality based solely who's in power. i mean, i didn't vote for bush and i hate it when i'm judged as if i did because i'm an american.

Noooo, I'm against cloning of humans! :D ;)

Unfortunately, nationality-bashing (and race baiting) happens all the time because it's so deeply ingrained within the human psyche. :'(

Now, some people are pointing their finger at the Koreans because the perpetrator of the Virginia massacre happened to be South Korean. If he had been African-American, Mexican-American, French, Spanish, Fijian, Norwegian, Egyptian, Israeli or Australian they would have blamed those groups... sad.

[Ben]

Sorry for jumping on this thread late, and if this has been said already, but 20 minutos is not a high class paper and it is read and commented on by some total idiots. No educated people would ever condone this shooting and I for one am as horrified by it as anyone else. The only snobbery you may find from, say, the British, concerns disbelief in many camps at the laxness of gun laws in some parts of the states. It seems that if you allow people to arm themselves so freely, you will always find one nutter who goes crazy once in a while. Remember, not even the police carry guns in the UK (something I find somewhat outdated these days). Anyway, this wasn't about gun control, I just wanted to point out that the readers of 20 minuots who wrote those terrible things should not be taken too seriously - they are abusing the anonymity of the net to try and shock others. Sad.

[Salam]

Yeah, I'm kind of late on this thread too, but although there's a lot of "anti-american" stuff going on around the world, I think the people that posted those comments on 20 minutes were just idiots, because there's nothing in the world that could justify a man going in and just shooting a bunch of people and killing them, especially since many of them weren't even american, so I mean for the people that left the comments, they're kind of contradicting themselves. Another thing is, I don't think if they were the ones that were shot or had siblings being shot that they would've been happy. One really sad thing that touched my heart, was that one of the professors I think who was shot dead had been a survivor of the holocaust. I thought that was very terrible, but yeah, like many have already posted, many Americans didn't vote for Bush, and even the ones that did, many didn't expect the endless war to continue on. It's like when people say all Muslims are terrorists because of Bin Laden, and that's obviously not true. In my opinion, hateful comments like that just shouldn't be listened to.

[Dani]

Markitos, siento decirte que estas un poco equivocado.
Si llevas una camiseta de España, los que somos de izquierda no pensamos que seas un fascista (solo algunos lo piensan).

[Dani]

Se me olvidaba: If somebody decide to read a book about Franco, be carefull with the autor! There are many autors very fascists: Pio Moa, Cesar Vidal, etc.

If something is bad written, sorry!

[Isra]

It's not just that they are fascists but barely historians.
I've found a list of commented books here:
http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Biblio/GuerraN/RefGN.htm

Dani, he visto en el google que Pio Moa acusa al Psoe de iniciar la Guerra Civil :eek: Eso sí que es nuevo, no sabía que se había atrevido a tanto.

[Edith]

It's not just that they are fascists but barely historians.
I've found a list of commented books here:
http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Biblio/GuerraN/RefGN.htm

Dani, he visto en el google que Pio Moa acusa al Psoe de iniciar la Guerra Civil :eek: Eso sí que es nuevo, no sabía que se había atrevido a tanto.

Hugh Thomas is on that list, too... :eek: Last year I bought his book on the Civil War but I haven't had time to read it yet! :rolleyes:

The only book I have read about the Spanish civil war so far is 'Homage to Catalonia' by George Orwell. One of the things I really like about Orwell is his sceptical, detached attitude. By refusing to identify himself with any of the big ideological systems (communism, national-socialism, fascism and capitalism/liberalism) he was very much ahead of his time.

[OttoElPiloto]

Hello acmench,

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm an American and haven't had any problems since arriving back in Madrid three months ago. And I have quite a few American friends here as well, and have yet to hear any of them talk about problems with anti-Americanism.

Sure, you get into the occasional discussion with people about US politics, Bush, etc. But everyone I've met has been polite about it. I usually take the opportunity to try to help people understand why our country is the way it is. Talk about the history, the influence of the media. Hell, the longer I'm away the harder it is for me to understand it myself :-/

I think Edith brought up a very good point about the internet bringing out the nutcases, racists, etc., not to mention the trolls who will post anything just to get a rise out of people. I'm sure you've seen it in other areas of the net as well--some people act very differently when they've got the anonymity of the computer screen to hide behind. And some people who, sadly, have no "real" life, get their kicks spending all their time trying to play with people's heads on the internet. It's good to take a step back and remind ourselves every once in awhile that cyberspace isn't reality (...yet ;-)

So my advice would be to take a deep breath, log off 20minutos.com, load up your iPod with Notes in Spanish podcasts, and get on that plane for Spain. You're gonna love it when you get back over here!

Alan


I just was over at 20minutos.com checking out the comments some people were making in response to the shooting yesterday at Virginia Tech. Sprinkled among the posts expressing outrage at the tragedy were a number of posts spouting rampant anti-Americanism, almost as if the college students deserved or should have expected this simply for being American. I was just wondering what the overall atmosphere is over there, especially for any Americans living in Madrid.

I was living there during 9/11 and, for the most part, Spanish people were interested mostly in what I, as an America, thought of it all. Certainly the global opinion of the US has changed in the past 5 years but has it gotten that bad? So bad that people think innocent kids deserve to die because of their citizenship?

Obviously those comments aren't necessarily the norm, but they are prevalent enough on 20minutos.com to detract from my excitement at moving to Madrid in 2 weeks. Will it be an uncomfortable environment for an American?

[eldeano]

Se me olvidaba: If somebody decide to read a book about Franco, be carefull with the autor! There are many autors very fascists: Pio Moa, Cesar Vidal, etc.

If something is bad written, sorry!

FRANCO by Paul Preston. Excellent. :thumbs-up:

[Dani]

Isra, Pio Moa se inventa todo lo que escribe en sus libros (como has comprobado). Es una vergüenza. Y lo peor de todo es que sus libros se venden como churros.

[eLiNe]

Also jumping in very late :)

Acmench originally asked about Spain - Will it be an uncomfortable environment for an American? After that a lot of opinions have been written about spain and other europeean countries, and also opinions from americans on the subject and the comments.

I fell the need to write my scandinavian opinion on the matter, because, to be honest, I guess I am a euro snob, or maybe even a cultural minority? Still, I think I speak on behalf of this side of the world at least.

If beeing critical to USA and also condemn actions and opinions made by the USA, makes you a euro snob, I proud to be one.

USA and its people represent a lot good things, but it is also all bad: WAR, weapons, nuclear weapon, death penalty, guatanamo, rasism, breaking human rights and international law, preveting and spoling WTO actions on globalisation, just to name a few things.

Off course I desagree with the opinions posted on 20minutos saying that the inocent university students deserved to be killed. But, I am not suprised by the comments. We don`t know anything about the people who wrote the comments. They may be victims of USA war or depression? USA is after all figthing a war as we speak/ write, and torturing prisoners. Some people might not have the luxury of beeing far away from the US war actions etc., wich makes it more difficult to be open minded about USA and do intellectual exercises about how importent it is not to judge everyone based on a few people.

I don`t hold the americans as individuals responsible for all the bad things USA brings to the world. But I think it is more than fair that the americans in Europe or any other place in the world are asked or confronted about the bad things. USA is after all a democracy wich gives the inhabitantes of that democracy an importent role.

I don`t understand why the americans get upset about beeing asked about the war, Bush etc. in Europe? Would you rather that people talked to you about Brad Pitt and Angelina Joli?

I am happy with the comments made in the forum by americans that you think it is sad that people generalize and stereotype.

In Europe people think that USA is all about generalisation and stereotyping, for example that all muslims must be terrorists, the countries labeled axis of evil, either you are with Bush or against him, and so on.