Notes from Spain podcast no. 40 - Flying the flag [Archive]

Ben

12th June 2006, 05:06 PM

ValenciaSon

12th June 2006, 05:40 PM

Interesting pod cast on flags, nationalism etc.. set gainst the current global events such as Roland Garros (French Open:rolleyes:) and the World Cup. I wonder how long will it be before the nation of Spain is comfortable with being proud without being haunted by the ghosts of the Franco era? Of course having 2+ separatists areas doesn't help either.

I will say that not all or even most homes in the US display a flag, with the exception of our Independence Day; the 4th of July, or the Olympics. Maybe the world cup could also be included but it'll be a while before that can be evidenced:rolleyes:

However, flag display varies with the political persuasion of the location. Some towns are more conservative and tend to display more flags where othe more liberal locales are less prone to displays of nationalism.

Jimmy

12th June 2006, 05:44 PM

Jimmy

12th June 2006, 05:48 PM

Also, when I was in Chile on their independence day (18th Sep) - I have never seen so many flags !!! Almost every house, almost every car !!! Totally incredible and patriotic, I thought...puts my country to shame.....until I found out later that it was law that you have to fly the flag or you get fined. Also, you can only fly another flag if it is smaller, and flown lower than the Chilean flag......hmmmmm....forced patriotism?

(Anyway, I hope the information is correct - it was told to me - so just passing the possibly incorrect message along).

Ben

12th June 2006, 08:20 PM

Green and Gold my friends !!!!! Australia def. Japan 3-1 in first world cup game in a bloody long time (since 1974 I think).

Yes, yes - we may very well get our butts right royally kicked by Brazil next - but hey, there was always the rugby against England on the weekend.

34-3 I hear the score-board say !!!! :smug:
Hmmm, missed the Rugby, probably a good thing! Did enjoy the Japan game today though and I will be backing the ozzies against Brazil.... won't do much good though I fear!!

celia s

12th June 2006, 11:10 PM

Hi Jimmy,
England may have got thrashed on Sunday but this is the Wallabies first victory since losing 8 out of 9 matches on their European tour last year!
Looking forward to the decider in Melbourne.

Jimmy

13th June 2006, 01:36 AM

Thanks for the support!!! - but in a game where Australia vs. Brazil it's easy to know what to wear. Green and Gold, or Gold and Green - you can't lose !!!!!! (as a member of the crowd) :rolleyes: ¡Nunca desiste! :eek:

Brian

13th June 2006, 02:35 AM

Back to the subject of nationalism and the flag, I would counterpoint Valenciason's observation with the statement that it seems that you see many, many more American flags, not just on holidays, in the rural south where I grew up. Of course in those days, you saw just as many Confederate flags....

Brian

13th June 2006, 02:37 AM

Add your thoughts on the podcast below, and in the meantime, here are a couple more photos of the madness at work in England!

Ben, help a clueless Yank out... Why the red and white cross flag for England, rather than the visibly recognizable Union Jack?

ValenciaSon

13th June 2006, 03:18 AM

dave

13th June 2006, 03:58 AM

I live in CT and several years ago a friend of mine had a visitor from Madrid. I remember how she was amazed at the number of US flags on display, both at businesses and homes alike. She kept commenting on how they didn't do that where she was from!

Her reaction was interesting to me since, at the time, I hadn't yet travelled much and therefore hadn't really considered that things might be different elsewhere. Of course, now that's exactly why I love travelling: our wonderful differences!

cubix

13th June 2006, 05:01 AM

Well Brian, I did say that it depended on the locale and its political persuasion. I live in Maryland ( barely a southern state) and I don't see that increase in flag display. I'm sure it is different in areas where confederate flags were/are displayed.

Living in the south(Georgia) I don't see many confederate flags. I will see the odd confederate flag sticker on a truck or such, but usually they just do it because they can, not because they believe in the confederacy. In southern georgia it is a little more common, but a different generation is starting to grow up. They are growing and there views are changing(racism, states rights, and all that other stuff)

The confederate flag is more of a cultural symbol now of the south, and doesn't stand for what it once did.

-Damn Yankee Transplant(from Chicago)

Brian

13th June 2006, 06:35 AM

Excellent post, Cubix. You pretty much hit it on the head, imo. The Confederate flags are more of a social/cultural statement than anything. It still floors me that most of the state flags in the south are variations of the "stars and bars."

Ben

13th June 2006, 08:52 AM

Ben, help a clueless Yank out... Why the red and white cross flag for England, rather than the visibly recognizable Union Jack?
The red on white cross (St George's cross) is the specific England flag (as opposed to the UK/Great Britain) - Scotland and Ireland have their own falgs too, and the Union Jack is an amalgamation of all three. Have a look at the flags diagram here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#History) on wikipedia, it makes it really clear.

I suppose the reason for using the red on white cross then is to set us apart from the Scots etc who might also have a place in these big international competitions.

ValenciaSon

13th June 2006, 12:26 PM

Help another yank please? So is the UK a nation and England, Ireland and Scottland its autonomous states? I always thought of those 3 as their own countries. HELP:confused:

Brian

13th June 2006, 12:58 PM

Help another yank please? So is the UK a nation and England, Ireland and Scottland its autonomous states? I always thought of those 3 as their own countries. HELP:confused:

You know the Brits, still hanging on to their Empire after 500 years....

Just teasing, Ben. ;)

Brian

13th June 2006, 01:06 PM

Another good podcast on "learning how to swear like your parents." ;D

I was listening to this one during my evening run and nearly had to stop jogging because you guys crack me up with the palabrotas-- Marina letting them fly, and Ben scolding her to "keep it clean." :cool:

Edith

13th June 2006, 02:31 PM

Marina and Ben are in the UK for the weekend marveling at the amazing number of England flags draped everywhere in honour of the world cup. Why, they wonder, are there none to be seen on the streets of football-loving Spain?

Add your thoughts on the podcast below, and in the meantime, here are a couple more photos of the madness at work in England!

In Holland, it's orange, orange, and more orange...

http://www.oranjeshopper.nl/

http://www.dression.com/advertenties/2005/Oranjeshopper/325x130oranje.gif

http://www.dression.com/fsimages/10004948kl.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:void(8008))

http://www.dression.com/fsimages/10004924kl.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:void(7992))

http://www.dression.com/fsimages/10005323kl.gif (javascript:void(8216))

Ben

13th June 2006, 03:12 PM

Help another yank please? So is the UK a nation and England, Ireland and Scottland its autonomous states? I always thought of those 3 as their own countries. HELP:confused:
Wikipedia to the rescue again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom): The United Kingdom is a political union made up of four constituent countries, commonly termed the home nations: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Marina

13th June 2006, 03:28 PM

So then where is Wales in the flag???

guapo

13th June 2006, 04:25 PM

According to Wikipedia, Wales was not included as it was already considered to be part of the Kingdom of England. Which seems a bit unfair, but then maybe there was no space to include a dragon...

The Wikipedia article on the Union Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack) has more information that you will ever likely need to know.

richardksa

13th June 2006, 07:43 PM

Wales is not a kingdom. It is a principality and ruled, until recently, by England. I saw the Welsh dragon once. She ran a B & B in Aberystwyth.

gary

13th June 2006, 08:00 PM

So then where is Wales in the flag???

Certainly not at the world cup - neither is the Scots Flag!!!!

On a more serious note - it is good that the everyday people have claimed ownership of the cross of St. George as it was previously verging upon being a symbol of the far right...

Ben

13th June 2006, 11:01 PM

...it is good that the everyday people have claimed ownership of the cross of St. George as it was previously verging upon being a symbol of the far right...
Someone mentioned this to me the other day, how the St George's Cross has been 'reclaimed' by the English from the far right, and it was even suggested that one day the Spanish people might embrace the Spanish flag in a similar way, that it might eventually cease to be associated in the minds of many with the Franquista past and the far right in Spain... this may take some time to happen in modern Spain though, with all the latest separatist tendancies... perhaps it will take something as grass roots as sport to really instill a sense of national unity in Spain - all that's needed is to win the world cup! - oh well, never mind...

Cat

13th June 2006, 11:27 PM

Hwyl......oi.....I'm a Welsh lass and can confirm that there are no dragons in this green and pleasant land! Lots of sheep.........and castles! (but unfortunately not many English flags flying over in this neck of the woods!!!):p :p

Ben

13th June 2006, 11:31 PM

There are some good comments on all this in the blog (http://www.notesfromspain.com/434/) as well... shame it's difficult to keep these discussions all in one place (the forums are definitely the best place though IMHO)

Simon

20th June 2006, 04:12 AM

[quote=ValenciaSon] Of course having 2+ separatists areas doesn't help either.ote]

But the English flag that the podcast discussed is just that of a 'separatist area' --England--it is not the national flag of the United Kingdom! I am British/English by birth and am astonished by the outpouring of English flags in the last 10 years or so. I'm sure it must have something to do with the fact that the other regions--Scotland and Wales most recently--now have their own assemblies and some power has been devolved, so the English are reasserting their own identity, separate from that of the United Kingdom.
When I last lived in the UK, the English flag had been expropriated by the extreme right and was very much an emblem, not of nationalism, but of racism.
Maybe I'm wrong on this, but the English mascot of the 1966 World Cup was a rather daft lion, but didn't he carry the Union Jack, rather than the English flag?

gary

20th June 2006, 01:28 PM

When I last lived in the UK, the English flag had been expropriated by the extreme right and was very much an emblem, not of nationalism, but of racism.

Ten yars ago you might have been right, it is something of a relief that this no longer seems to be the case - in fact the right wing may actually be moving towards the union jack now....ironic! Sadly the racist right is on the up (in a very minor way) in areas with large immigrant populations, usually in areas where the old industry is dying and some areas of central London I think.

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but the English mascot of the 1966 World Cup was a rather daft lion, but didn't he carry the Union Jack, rather than the English flag?

That would be World Cup Willie - sounds like a disease you might bring back from a visit to the seedier parts of Berlin.

richardksa

20th June 2006, 03:12 PM

An aside: Who was it who said that patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel?

gary

20th June 2006, 07:50 PM

An aside: Who was it who said that patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel?

Samuel Johnson (1709–84) - these days it is sometimes the first!!

Simon

23rd June 2006, 05:48 AM

Ten yars ago you might have been right,

Actually, my point was about more than 25 years ago, and how it has now changed.

....and I could remember the name of that lion from 1966, but was trying to spare the forum the obvious jokes. How could they have called a mascot by that name??
Noone cared as much about the 1966 World Cup as they do today: there's a great story somewhere on the BBC website (I think) about how the England team went out the night before the Final to the movies in some London suburb, and noone recognised them.

Marbella

24th June 2006, 06:58 PM

greytop

25th June 2006, 09:46 AM

Just seen some quite disgusting scenes of England fans behaving badly at the world cup. 122 arrests last night and there is more trouble right now.
The low reputation of the English yob abroad seems fully justified looking at this. :mad: Shame on them.

Reading this http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-5909707,00.html

it does not seem like that big a deal (although totally unjustified by any civilised standards) and similar scenes could occur just about anywhere when you bring in tens of thousands of fans and let them drink all day and night. The German police seem to be well trained and are handling the situation without aggravating it. Short of total alcohol prohibition and/or complete segregation of different fans what else can they do?

Marbella

25th June 2006, 10:07 AM

It's always the English though. Do other fans behave so appallingly on this scale? Perhaps we just don't get to hear about it. I don't buy what some of these thugs are saying, that they are somehow provoked into reacting. Put them in any major town centre on a Friday night and they'll be doing the same after a few beers. In fact, there was a big punch-up in the street where I live at 3 o'clock yesterday afternoon!

Edith

25th June 2006, 10:53 AM

It's always the English though. Do other fans behave so appallingly on this scale? Perhaps we just don't get to hear about it.

Not on this scale perhaps, but hooliganism is not exclusively a British problem. I remember watching a BBC series on hooliganism in several countries, including the U.K, Italy, and Argentina. Some of the hooligans are married men with jobs and with young children of their own. And of course, it often involves racism as well. Truly appalling.

There were also outbreaks between German and Polish hooligans:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,421554,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,644696,00.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTQzODMmbnI9Mg_3_3,00.html)

More on hooliganism in general:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooliganism

Brian

25th June 2006, 02:24 PM

I agree with Edith. Hooligan-style behavior is everywhere, certainly not restricted to nationality or race. And greytop doubtless has hit it on the head in that the situation was a bit overblown by the press. It was an ugly situation fueled by a few too many beers, national pride, and a few bad apples with loose tongues. Do I believe that all those England fans were swastika-wearing, bottle-throwing hooligans? Probably not. Again, kudos to the German police for diffusing the situation.

Marbella

25th June 2006, 02:43 PM

I wasn't claiming that it is purely an English disease, but I definitely was saying that the English are too often involved. Just because examples exist of other nationalities misbehaving does not make what these English thugs did acceptable. I couldn't look at the scene on the news last night of a terrified German toddler being carried out of the square as English yobs threw chairs and abuse at the German fans just metres away and shrug my shoulders and say, "never mind, it happens".

Brian

25th June 2006, 03:07 PM

I definitely am with you, and I certainly didn't mean to diminish the severity of the confrontation.

Jimmy

25th June 2006, 03:26 PM

Guys,

This is what happens when you go to watch two countries battle it out over 2 hours and the result is 0 - 0 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe if the scoring system were changed to allow (a few) more goals, then the results of more games would represent which team was better on the day. There would be a result - and the crowd wouldn't need to beat the hell out of each other to vent the pent up frustration....also (now up to 4 cents worth) - If the players were more 'manly' about getting a little kick in the shins now and then instead of rolling around in writhing (but worthy of an Oscar Nomination) pain...AND if they would partake in a bit-o'-biff now and then (they get paid enough, so why not)...then I'm sure the crowd would enjoy the spectacle and not have to do it themselves. :rolleyes:

I'm now hiding under my desk awaiting the onslaught of die-hard replies :eek:

Marbella

25th June 2006, 03:29 PM

I definitely am with you, and I certainly didn't mean to diminish the severity of the confrontation.

Thanks Brian. I'm English - although I'm sure German fans were involved too, I can't be ashamed to be German. This is a headline from the Washington Post a few hours ago - an example of the English reputation:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/25/AR2006062500178.html
500 England fans detained in Stuttgart

By Kate Holton
Reuters
Sunday, June 25, 2006; 7:47 AM

STUTTGART (Reuters) - Five hundred England soccer supporters have been detained in Stuttgart in the two days leading up to their side's second-round match with Ecuador for mostly drunken and aggressive behavior, police said on Sunday.
Riot police held 378 England fans on Saturday night after they clashed with German fans, throwing bottles, tables and chairs in a square in the city center. On Friday, 122 were held for aggressive behavior.

Leah

28th June 2006, 09:58 AM

Here in Italy there is a similar aversion to the flag although perhaps not as strong as in Spain. Very, very rarely do you see a flag hanging, in fact, the world cup is one of the few times you see the flag hanging from people's windows. My boyfriend was shocked when he came to the US because of the flags EVERYWHERE, even in the most bizarre places, on everything from building to snacks to cakes or even painted on people's garages. Just as in Spain, somebody that has the flag flying from their house would probably taken for a fascist. Here the ultra ultra right (in northern italy) tends to be part of the lega nord which is an ultra right wing racist party that wants to split off from southern italy and they tend to have the flag of "padania" and not the italian flag. Another similarity left from fascism in Italy just like in Spain is dubbing, which was mandatory under fascism and has left its ugly mark on film viewing habits even today.

Edith

28th June 2006, 10:37 AM

Another similarity left from fascism in Italy just like in Spain is dubbing, which was mandatory under fascism and has left its ugly mark on film viewing habits even today.

Dubbing sucks - big time! :D

Germany and France use dubbing too, but France has no Fascist past (except for Vichy, of course).

It sounds so silly to hear John Wayne speak in German! :eek: