Spain vs Mexico

[viajero]

Quoting Jessica (and also Edith's posts)

i hate to be cliche, but i'd really have to say the crystal blue water, the culture, the language, and the majesty of the cities and buildings. there's so much to explore and, from what i've seen on videos, there are so many things unlike what you'd find here in the US.

whenever i give that kind of an answer i always get asked "well, can't you have all of that in mexico or something?" and i never really know what to say except yes, but it seems so much more appealing in Spain.

I've been way too chicken to write anything in the public forum about this, but I'll give it a go.

I've traveled to Mexico once, loved it, and will be back again this January. But Spain seems more mystical, more adventurous and elegant. I definitely see some surface differences between Mexico and what I know of Spain. I felt pretty awkward in Mexico sometimes; my family is not rich by American standards, but we felt very fortunate when seeing the living conditions of the campesinos and local service workers. It seems like the hotels are controlled by offshore interests and I'm concerned that money is going to some rich American rather than the local people that really deserve it. It seems like the standard of living is higher in Spain - I'm curious if service workers are paid a fair wage....

Also, I don't know how the people differ from country to country. I found people in Mexico to be extremely generous and warm, especially once I let them know I was willing to try everything en español. Spain really seems alluring from a distance - but maybe people there think most Americans are morons (hey, let's be honest, we're not the best tourists).

I do have young kids and I naturally want to visit somewhere safe. In spite of the recent article about kidnappings in Spain, I feel like it might be a little safer....

And it's not as if I have to pick a country (!), but I feel especially close to Spain because of Ben and Marina and the thought did cross my mind that my family and I should be saving for a trip to Spain instead of visiting Mexico again.

Thoughts?

[Marina]

I think that is a great idea!!! ;D

Mexico sounds very apealling to me, I've never been there but is very high up in my list of dream places to go. However if you've already been it would be nice to try somewhere new, don't you think?

I believe that the standard of living is higher in Spain than in Mexico, but still in a smaller percentage I'm sure there are badly paid workers in Spain and even in the US.
And big business are still in hands of the same rich American or a similar European one :(.

[Edith]

But Spain seems more mystical, more adventurous (...) I definitely see some surface differences between Mexico and what I know of Spain. (...)

There is one big difference between Mexico and Spain: Mexico is a country of mestizos, and its culture is a mix between Native American and Spanish elements. Mexico's north is more affluent than the south, and it has also got fewer indigenous communities. In states like Oaxaca, Guerrero, Michoacán, Chiapas and Yucatán, large parts of the population are Indian or at least part Indian (Native American). The indígenas are often bilingual, Spanish being their second language, but in some places you will even be able to meet people who do not speak any Spanish at all. Even Mexican Catholicism is different from Spanish Catholicism, and some indigenous communities have simply added the Christian God to their own pantheon. Rumors have it that in Mexico's Aztec heartland, you'll be able to find small statues of the rain god Tlaloc hidden beneath church altars.

Mexico's colonial architecture is overwhelmingly Spanish but the mentality of its people is definitely a mix between the two cultures. Mexican Spanish contains many loan words from Náhuatl, Maya and other native languages. Once I tried to read a novel which was set in Mexico's northern state of Sonora but it was a very tough read because of all the sonorismos (mostly derived from the local Yaqui language).

In my opinion, one of the best books ever written about Mexico and its conquest by the Spanish is The Buried Mirror/El Espejo Enterrado by carlos Fuentes. If you'd like to know more about the interaction between native and Spanish cultural elements, this book is a must-read. One of the things I like about Fuentes is the fact that he explores both Spanish and Mexican history in order to explain the conquest and the origins of mestizo culture. According to Fuentes, you cannot understand Mexico unless you understand both its Spanish and its native roots. The Mexicans are very much aware of their mestizo heritage, and they have a love-hate relationship with Spain which seems to be very deeply rooted into their psyche.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395924995/sr=8-1/qid=1150464340/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-4117101-6435223?%5Fencoding=UTF8

In my opinion, Mexico has definitely got a mystique of its own, and it's certainly an adventure to travel there. Mexico has got many regional subcultures and its natural beauty is breathtaking: deserts and mountain ranges in the north and center, lush tropical forests and beautiful beaches in the south. It has also got many archaeological treasures which are worth exploring and its cuisine is delicious. As I wrote before, it would be hard for me to choose between both countries, although I would definitely prefer Spain as far as safety is concerned.

Since you have never been to Spain, it might be very interesting for you to visit that country so you can compare the two of them afterwards. I would definitely go to Spain if I were you. Go to Spain and get to know the similarities and differences with Mexico! :-)

[Edith]

I believe that the standard of living is higher in Spain than in Mexico

Absolutely. One of Mexico's main problems is the huge difference between rich and poor, which is often a difference between white and brown, literate and illiterate, north and south, etc. Mexico has got some excellent universities and some areas are quite well-developed - especially in the north. Lots of places in Mexico are clean, attractive, and safe to visit. The colonial city of Oaxaca is just like one of its Spanish counterparts - only the faces of the people are different. Like in Spain, anybody will be able to find something of interest here, be it natural beauty, historical cities, good food, beaches, archeological sites, or outdoor adventures.

On the other hand, even in some of Mexico's northernmost cities like Tijuana and Ciudad Juárez you will find abject poverty and widespread social chaos. Ciudad Juárez's huge shantytowns - the colonias - can be seen from miles away on the other side of the border. Unlike Spain, Mexico is still a country of social, economical and cultural extremes. I have seen a lot of poverty in Chiapas (this is where the Zapatista revolution started in 1994). But, like I said, Mexico can also be extremely attractive and beautiful.

[guiño]

Edith, thanks so much for the book recommendation. I plan to order it today.

I spent several weeks with two friends pickup camping across Mexico in 1981 and found people very friendly there. We passed through lots of areas in those days where people rarely had seen foreign tourists. Many people offered us places to park our truck and sleep the night, and some welcomed us into there homes. I especially enjoyed Zacatecas, Guanajuato, and Chiapas.

I think things have been changing a lot there in recent years, and perhaps the rich/poor divide has even widened (?) Changes connected with industrial food production and global trade have made it increasingly difficult for small farmers and rural people, swelling migration to cities where many people live in deepest poverty (I think Mexico City is the biggest city in the world if you include all the colonias), and also across the border into the EEUU. Mexican workers in the EEUU typically send money back to families in Mexico, and their labor is said to be Mexico's largest export commodity.

[Edith]

Many people offered us places to park our truck and sleep the night, and some welcomed us into there homes. I especially enjoyed Zacatecas, Guanajuato, and Chiapas.

Sounds like you have really been off the beaten track! This is always the best way to see a country. :)

Last autumn I went to Gran Canaria and we visited lots of places which are hardly ever frequented by the hordes of tourists who visit this island. I always enjoy doing that, especially in a place where many people only get to see beaches, discos and restaurants.

I remember watching Mexico City's biggest colonia, Nezahualcoyotl (also known as 'Neza') from my plane. It has got one million inhabitants! The gap between rich and poor seems to be widening indeed, because people from all over Mexico are leaving the countryside to find work elsewhere. No wonder many of them try their luck in the United States.

Spain used to be poor too - in the 1960s and early 1970s, migrants from poor regions such as Andalucia and Extremadura went to work in countries like Germany, Switzerland and Holland - but this seems to be a thing of the past. Migration from Spain to northern Europe is unheard of these days, and people from North Africa and eastern Europe even flock to Spain instead!

[Marbella]

I can see a name change coming, 'Notes from Spanish Speaking Countries'
:'(

[viajero]

I apologize - I didn't mean to get the thread off track. I'm happy to see some wonderful responses but maybe this part of the conversation should go in another forum entry....

[Ben]

I have moved these posts over to a new thread about Spain and Mexico as the original 'What is it about Spain' thread was going a bit off topic. Hope that's OK!

I had been to Mexico twice before I came to Spain. It was only when I visited Spain, and in particular Sevilla, that I understood certain aspects of Mexico. The colonial architecture in Mexican cities like Merida seemed to have come straight out of the old streets of Seville...

[ValenciaSon]

Embarrassingly enough, most Americans think of Mexican and Spanish culture as the same and are surprised to hear that there differences.

[Brian]

Embarrassingly enough, most Americans think of Mexican and Spanish culture as the same and are surprised to hear that there differences.

No kidding. One of my workmates said to me, "Hey, your wife speaks Mexican, doesn't she?" :rolleyes: To which I reply, "No, she speaks Castellano."

[Polly]

I'm sure i've mentioned this previous posts: Spain's Costa del Sol was an incredible reminder to me, of the Southern California I lived in as a child. Topographically, as well as architecturally and - in many respects - from a socio/economic standpoint. Of course California also has enormous L/A influences ( primarily, but not soley Mexican).

Edith & Guirino - your observations / comments about the lasting influence of both Indigenous and Spanish cultures on modern Mexico and it's current socio / economic, and agricultural structures, as well as religious, linguistic, (and I'll add: artistic) traditions are well-founded!

I am just several months removed from a Latin American studdies course in World Cultures -- I took the class last fall, long before my trip to Spain (in March) was even a possibility -- Several chapters in the reading materials were neccisarily devoted to Spain and Spanish / Iberian history (and the lasting influences of the Moors on both Spanish and L/A Hispanic cultures as well).

Had I not taken this class, I would have missed out on a deeper understanding of the important differences in Spanish / Mexican culture - as well as their vast similarities - and I certainly would have mistaken what I thought I knew, with what I came to understand about the differences as well as the deeply-rooted interconnectivity to be found between Spainish, Mexican (and the rest of L/A) society that exists even today.

Not that anyone needs a reminder but: Mexico was first dubbed
"New Spain" by those who claimed it for the Spanish Crown, in the name of "God, Gold and Glory..."

[Edith]

I am just several months removed from a Latin American studdies course in World Cultures

Interesting! In the mid-1980s, I took Latin American history classes at Utrecht University which were very interesting, and which awakened my interest in multicultural societies long before it became fashionable.

It's fascinating to see how each Latin American country developed its own culture, even though its Spanish components are a common denominator. But despite the language they have got in common a country like Cuba is very different from Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Argentina, or Venezuela. This is because each country has got a different racial and ethnic makeup which accounts for differences in mentality, folk traditions, cuisine, music, etc. Mexico, Guatemala and Perú fall within the indigenous/mestizo range while Cuba and Venezuela are more Afro-Caribbean, and while Argentina is predominantly white. A phenomenon like santería, which is a folk religion from Cuba based on West African beliefs, would be unthinkable in Argentina.

Even in Mexico itself there are cultural differences between regions - at one point in history, the Yucatán peninsula almost decided to secede from the rest of Mexico! It seems to me that the region around Puebla and Jalisco (the heartland of mariachi!) has the strongest Spanish component. Mexico is also home to some Sephardic Jewish communities whose ancestors were forcibly expulsed from Spain after 1942 and who have kept many of their Spanish-Jewish traditions alive.

I have always had a great affection for Spanish and Latin American music, and I even feel it fills up a gap in my own culture since I am totally unable to relate to much of the garbage which I hear on Dutch radio these days. The common denominator here is Spain - especially the guitar - although Latin American music is also a crucible of indigenous and African elements. But the language is invarably Spanish and the guitar is almost never absent.

Another thing which interests me is the origin of the charro culture in Mexico, which seems to have been heavily influenced by southern Spain. Just comparing the costumes of Mexican cattle ranchers and their Andalucian counterparts tells a story which John Wayne fans probably don't want to hear... that the origins of cowboy culture are purely Spanish, and certainly not Anglo-Saxon.

Exploring the differences between Spain and, say, Mexico greatly intrigue me. Even though I tend to shy away from generalizations I feel that Mexico tends to be more conservative socially than Spain, even though things might have been more similar 30 years ago or so. On the other hand, both countries have strong pro-Catholic and anticlerical factions, which is interesting to say the least. Some Mexicans have a penchant for religious fanaticism (cf. the Cristero wars of the 1920s) while others totally reject the Church. British novelist Graham Greene wrote about the Cristero wars from a very partisan perspective, i.e. totally pro-Cristero. He did not seem to realize that both factions committed atrocities, as in most civil wars. The behavior of many Cristeros was anything but 'Christian'. On the other hand, their revolutionary counterparts also engaged in large-scale persecutions and they even prohibited any public religious display after defeating the Cristeros: something totally unacceptable from a modern, democratic point of view. Like in Spain, the Catholic Church was often associated with social conservatism and with defending the interests of the big landowners, which probably explains the tradition of anti-clericalism in both countries. In a way, Mexico also went through a phase of civil war (even though the Cristero conflict took place years after the 'official Revolution had ended) and some of their ideological conflicts are vaguely reminiscent of what was to happen in Spain during the Civil War. The region of Jalisco even produced its own brand of Mexican fascists. Eventually, the progressives won and this meant many Republican refugees from the Spanish Civil War would eventually find a safe haven in Mexico. President Lázaro Cárdenas actively stimulated the migration of persecuted Republicans to his country.

Greene seems to have understood nothing of this. He had an irrational loathing for the Mexicans and he even abhorred their colorful food. (which makes me wonder how he would have felt about Spanish food, which can be equally colorful because it uses some of the same ingredients). He knew next to nothing about the culture he was describing and therefore I did not enjoy reading his novels on Mexico. Much has been written about this country from a gringo perspective, but it's much more interesting to learn about the opinions of the Mexicans themselves.

[guiño]

Eventually, the progressives won and this meant many Republican refugees from the Spanish Civil War would eventually find a safe haven in Mexico. President Lázaro Cárdenas actively stimulated the migration of persecuted Republicans to his country.

Yes. RNE has a nice 50 minute documentary on this at

http://www.rtve.es/rne/ree/pndocu/lcardenas.mp3 :)

[guiño]

I would love to hear of more good reading on L/A from some of you with a good background. Sounds like I will not interested in G Greene's view for now - I am looking for Spanish and Latin American perspectives (read in Spanish as much for the practice as anything).

I am just getting starting on Las Raíces Torcidas de América Latina by Carlos Montaner, a Cuban. I don't have a good handle on his particular bias yet, but the book comes highly recommended by Vargas LLosa, and it has lots I didn't know. Also have El Espejo Enterrado on my list.

Any more recommendations?

[guiño]

Spain used to be poor too - in the 1960s and early 1970s, migrants from poor regions such as Andalucia and Extremadura went to work in countries like Germany, Switzerland and Holland - but this seems to be a thing of the past. Migration from Spain to northern Europe is unheard of these days, and people from North Africa and eastern Europe even flock to Spain instead!

Yes. Francisco Ayala (Español, Premio Cervantes) sets his novela El Rapto in this context. It begins like this:

El Rapto
Mucho había oído ponderar yo, y mucho había leído también, acerca de la enorme afluencia de obreros españoles, atraídos y absorbidos por la industria de la nueva Alemania democrática, pero hasta ahora nunca había tenido ocasión de ponerme en contacto con algunos de ellos. Cierto es que varias veces, por las calles de ciudades alemanas, tanto como en Francia o Inglaterra, me había tropezado con grupos de muchachos a quienes no hubiera necesitado oírles hablar para desde luego que procedían de mi propio país. ¿Cómo, sin embargo, abordarlos y entablar con ellos una conversación que no resultara precaria, forzada, precipitada, extemporánea? A fines del año 1961 la casualidad me deparó por fin un encuentro cómodo, en circunstancias que nos permitieron a mis interlocutores eventuales y a mí conversar naturalmente...

[guiño]

Exploring the differences between Spain and, say, Mexico greatly intrigue me. Even though I tend to shy away from generalizations I feel that Mexico tends to be more conservative socially than Spain, even though things might have been more similar 30 years ago or so.

Indeed. My interest in all of this is pretty recent and mostly grew out of listening to REE to practice the language. The more I learn the more I want to know and understand, and the sweep of history and interaction of cultures is certainly a big part of that.

As for socially conservative, how much, would you would say, did social attitudes change in Spain with the end of the Franco years? Is the difference that recent (perhaps I'm giving away too much by using the term recent here)? I have to say, though I love all the Notes in Spanish podcasts, my favorites were the interviews with Marina's parents. And I remember their story about nearly being fined for kissing in the park, yes? And a friend who was fined for not wearing a jacket, wasn't it? ;)

[Edith]

I would love to hear of more good reading on L/A from some of you with a good background. Sounds like I will not interested in G Greene's view for now - I am looking for Spanish and Latin American perspectives (read in Spanish as much for the practice as anything).

I am just getting starting on Las Raíces Torcidas de América Latina by Carlos Montaner, a Cuban. I don't have a good handle on his particular bias yet, but the book comes highly recommended by Vargas LLosa, and it has lots I didn't know. Also have El Espejo Enterrado on my list.

Any more recommendations?

El laberinto de la soledad by Octavio Paz is a good one. It's a collection of critical essays by Paz on different aspects of Mexico's national psyche.

Another one would be Triumphs and Tragedy: A History of the Mexican people by Ramón Eduardo Ruiz. I think the original is in Spanish, but I'm not entirely sure.

Alan Riding's Distant Neighbors offers a very interesting perspective from north of the Rio Grande. I don't mind 'gringo' perceptions per se, and sometimes a foreign perspective can even be refreshing because foreigners are not hampered by nationalistic biases. They are apt to point out things which the average native may often overlook. What I do object to are extremely biased anti-Mexican perceptions like Greene's which even have got racist overtones. The books I am referring to are The Power and the Glory and The Lawless Roads.

The worst and most unabashedly racist book I ever read about Mexico is Fire and Blood by J.R. Fehrenbach. Criticism is fine, sometimes even desirable - especially concerning the ruthlessly anti-clerical purges Greene was writing about - but both authors also seemed to have been fueled by outright hatred against the country they were writing about. Fehrenbach is a bigot pure and simple.

[Edith]

As for socially conservative, how much, would you would say, did social attitudes change in Spain with the end of the Franco years?

Marina would be much better equipped to answer this question... what I know about it is mostly from books and from the Cuéntame cómo pasó series, although I have seen Spain change over the years from a superficial tourist perspective. Thirty years ago, gay marriages would have been unthinkable in Spain, and a movie like Mar Adentro (which is about euthanasia) would never have made it to the cinemas. La transición (the democratization process which started after Franco's death in 1976) seems to have been a huge success although it came at a price. Right now I'm reading Ghosts of Spain by Giles Tremlett, which was recommended by Marbella. Tremlett explains how the franquistas, like the military junta in Chile, managed to force their will on the new democratic government by imposing silence. This meant they would never be held accountable for atrocities committed in the past. The victims of the old regime, who have been suffering in silence for years, still haven't been fully rehabilitated and their murdered relatives are still lying in undocumented mass graves all over Spain. Ghosts of Spain is a very interesting, if at times unsettling, read. But then again, Spain is certainly not the only country in Europe with skeletons in its closet! (Holland, too, has got its share)

[Edith]

Yes. Francisco Ayala (Español, Premio Cervantes) sets his novela El Rapto in this context.

Thank you, I will put it on my 'to read' list! :)

[Edith]

Yes. RNE has a nice 50 minute documentary on this at

http://www.rtve.es/rne/ree/pndocu/lcardenas.mp3 :)

Very impressive! What really gets to me is that children are often the victims of conflicts between adults... los niños de Morelia have every reason to be grateful to Cárdenas although Mexican society as a whole left them to their own devices.