Zapatero: how's he doing?

[Marbella]

I'll put my cards on the table right now and say that I'm not his biggest fan. Before he came to power I saw him as an idealist, in the impractical sense. Here I go being all controversial but I don't think he would be in power if it wasn't for 11-M; he was too quick to put 2 fingers up to the US and he is too quick to climb into bed with S American leaders of dubious repute; he makes a lot of noise about desperate black Africans trying to get to Spain, but says nothing of the negatives of the bulging population of immigrants from other countries (stress - there are more positives but I don't think he 'sells' the idea to Spaniards which makes racism thrive e.g. Blair did this in the UK and we've seen the resurgence of extreme right-wing parties like the BNP British National Party); he's too willing to negotiate with ETA when they are, it is claimed, still extorting money from Basque businesses and even last week making implied threats against France.

But, the real reason I raise this point is I heard last week previously staunch socialists who cried with joy when he came to power, thinking now, after just a little more than 2 years, they've elected a loose cannon.

There are 3 key areas where he has unnerved people?

1) Immigration
2) Negotiating with ETA
3) The Catalan question

So, what do you think: how's he doing?

[TrickyDicky]

Maybe Zapatero got into power through a stroke of luck, but I can't help admiring his performance. A politician is one who treads a very fine line between all kinds of conflicting interests and somehow picks the least bad option available, without giving rise to any very strong feelings in any individual group.
So what is he to do about immigration? Spain is a doorway for Africans to the afluent West and the world's human rights organisations are watching what Spain does. Of course there is immigration from South America and the enlarged EEC too.
I personally think his position on negotiating with ETA is right on the nail. That is how the UK negotiated with the IRA. Even today, the IRA is not pure white, but the situation in Ireland and the UK is much better, isn't it?
The Catalan question can quickly lead to flame wars, I am sure. Personally I like the idea of people belonging to their local community and at the same time participating in a wider community as well. We have local parliaments in the UK, we have the central parliament in London and we belong to the EEC. Why should this not work for Spain, especially as the Catalans do have a strong feeling that they are a nation.

[Edith]

I have got a question relating to 1), immigration. How does the Zapatero government deal with Islamic extremism in Spain? This is a big issue in Holland at the moment and I would like to know more about the situation in Spain.

[Ben]

Here I go being all controversial but I don't think he would be in power if it wasn't for 11-M;

I'm sure he wouldn't be in power if it wasn't for 11-M. And all of a sudden he found himself with a lot of big pre-election promises and no real choice but to keep them (pull out of Iraq, legalise gay marriage, cancelling the national hydrological plan etc). A lot of Spaniards think that pulling out of the war has destroyed a very favourable economic relationship with the States that took years to develop (by Aznar), I suppose time will tell.

With regards to the ETA talks, my own personal view is that if it does work, a big if, then well done to the man. Sooner or later ETA had to crumble, and if he is the man that seems to have orchestrated it then all credit to him.

I won't comment on immigration from Africa and as I don't have enough facts at the moment, but with regards to the Catalan question, I know he has upset a lot of right-wing Spaniards that feel that giving Cataluña even more autonomy really will be the beginning of the end of 'Spain', as other regions demand similar nationalist status.

Finally, I was interested and fairly surprised to see Zapatero on the front of either Newsweek or the Economist (can't remember which) about a month ago, heralded as an excellent example of new socialism, the man that is boosting Spain's fortunes beyond neighbours such as Italy and Germany, and an example to other aspiring socialist governments around the world... so he must be doing something right. And at the end of the day, as the old Partido Popular slogan read, it seems to me that right now 'España va bien'.

[Marbella]

I have got a question relating to 1), immigration. How does the Zapatero government deal with Islamic extremism in Spain? This is a big issue in Holland at the moment and I would like to know more about the situation in Spain.

I don't believe, although I am not 100% sure so take this with a very large pinch of salt, that Spain has the same incitement to religeous hatred laws as exist in the UK now.

The Zapatero government has had continued success in tracking down Islamic terrorists/militants and appears to cooperate well with other countries in terms of intelligence.

Not sure if this answers your question.

You will have to give us the sentiment on the streets of Holland and see if you can draw any parallels with Spain after 11-M. Was Holland, one of Europe's, indeed the world's, most liberal countries hiding a deep hatred, resulting in for example the horrific murders of Van Gogh and Fortuyn? Holland is far further down the immigration road - are there lessons that Spain could learn as such a young democracy?

[Marbella]

...all of a sudden he found himself with a lot of big pre-election promises and no real choice but to keep them.

Good point, I'd not thought of that aspect i.e. that power came as a surprise to him. To give him credit, he more or less did what he said he'd do which is rare for a politician.

...if he is the man that seems to have orchestrated it then all credit to him..

You see, I feel that it was 11-M that signalled the beginning of the end for ETA and not something that Zapatero did. The PP had weakened ETA and 11-M drained much of the support for the cause - then was the time to hunt them down and jail them for a long time for their crimes.

All I can see is that terrorism works. You can murder 800+ people, you can torture, kidnap, extort money but as long as you do it in the name of a terrorist organisation you'll be fine. Decide one day that you are not getting anywhere, call a cease-fire, and you'll be invited to negotiate with the government. You'll get something of what you wanted and get your prisoners released or sentences reduced.

I was in Spain when Jose Ortega was found in a tiny cave in which he'd been kept for 18 months. The Guardia Civil who found him said that he was huddled in a corner begging his captors, because he didn't believe it was the police in there to rescue him, to end his life because he couldn't stand the isolation.

I was also in Spain when millions of Spaniards took to the streets and begged for mercy for Miguel Angel Blanco. Against all that, ETA took that poor young man and cold bloodedly executed him.

ETA will win something out of this and it just seems wrong. I am amazed and humbled sometimes to hear the families of victims of terrorism say that they support negotiations.

God this is depressing; think I'll stick to talking about jamon iberico in future!


... right-wing Spaniards that feel that giving Cataluña even more autonomy really will be the beginning of the end of 'Spain', as other regions demand similar nationalist status.


This is where I am a guiri because I can't understand why you can't be proud to be Catalan and proud to be Spanish. It's not as if the Catalans are oppressed at all is it.


'España va bien'.

Ah yes, you've got me there! There was a confidence, happiness and peace on the streets of Madrid last week that was a pleasure to behold. Mind you I did walk around for 3 days with a big grin on my face so I wouldn't have noticed any bad bits even if they had been there! ;D

[Edith]

I don't believe, although I am not 100% sure so take this with a very large pinch of salt, that Spain has the same incitement to religeous hatred laws as exist in the UK now.

The Zapatero government has had continued success in tracking down Islamic terrorists/militants and appears to cooperate well with other countries in terms of intelligence.

Not sure if this answers your question.

You will have to give us the sentiment on the streets of Holland and see if you can draw any parallels with Spain after 11-M. Was Holland, one of Europe's, indeed the world's, most liberal countries hiding a deep hatred, resulting in for example the horrific murders of Van Gogh and Fortuyn? Holland is far further down the immigration road - are there lessons that Spain could learn as such a young democracy?

Sorry for the terrible lay-out! I prepared this reply in Word and something went wrong while pasting it.

Oops, this will take us way off-topic. I will try to keep it as short as possible! I also know this is an emotional subject which often leads to flaming wars – something which I would like to avoid at all costs, especially since this is such a nice and friendly forum.

One of the reasons why people in Holland were so shocked and upset by the murders of Fortuyn and Van Gogh may have been caused by the fact that our country had never been the victim of terrorist attacks before, apart from two train hijackings in the mid-1970s by radicalised South Moluccans.

After the Moluccan crisis had blown over, nothing happened until that fateful day in May, 2001 when Pim Fortuyn was murdered by a native Dutchman who claimed to act on behalf of the ‘disenfranchized’ Muslims in Holland. It was a very rude awakening for many people. Unfortunately, a certain amount of naiveté is part of our culture, and many people still believe that ‘things like this (e.g. major terrorist attacks like those in New York, Madrid, and London) do not happen in Holland’. This may explain some of the extreme anger which the average man in the street feels towards Muslims. It’s almost as if the Dutch dream of a liberal and permissive society has been shattered overnight. The Spanish and the British seem to be far more realistic in this respect. After all, you have lived with terrorism for years.

Some observers feel that a major terrorist attack with lots of casualties - like the ones in Madrid or London - would have torn Holland apart. To be honest, many people in Holland were really surprised by the way in which the Spanish people reacted after the terrible massacre of 11-M. The backlash we expected never came. Spain seems to be handling the situation really well.

In Holland, the ideological rift between Muslims and non-Muslims has been widening fast since 9/11, and unfortunately some people seem unable to distinguish between radical and mainstream Muslims. I have to admit that Van Gogh's behavior towards Muslims was quite despicable (among other things, he used to call them 'goatf*ckers'), but of course this doesn't justify his murder in any way. Radicalisation of Muslim youths is a fact which cannot be denied, and both anti-Semitism and Saudi-imported fundamentalism are definitely on the increase.

Over the last five years, there have been many arrests among radicalised youths who were involved in international terrorist networks such as the Hofstad Group, which has also got contacts in Spain. Politicians like Ayaan Hirsi Ali had to go into hiding because of their critical stance towards radical Islam. Many people, including Muslims, have received death threats because they spoke out against radicalism. The links below provides you with some more information on these subjects.

Muslim integration into Dutch society has failed in many ways, and Holland's liberal tradition may be part of the problem. For many years, writing about problems between ethnic groups was simply 'not done' and one could even be called a 'racist' for insisting that immigrants should learn Dutch. For many years, both politicians and employers believed the Turks and Moroccans who came to Holland as guest laborers in the 1960s would leave eventually, which made integration unnecessary. This was a big mistake. Now, some politicians and opinion makers have moved towards the other extreme end of the political spectrum by insisting that our multi-cultural society is a total failure. Of course, this is not entirely true since people from many different countries – including our ex-colonies - have been able to find their place in Dutch society after World War II. The Indo-Dutch from Indonesia have even done particularly well without giving up their ethnic identity. We have got more than 120 nationalities living in our country.

There is a certain tendency to blame all ethnic groups collectively for the problems caused by some, and the extreme right thrives on every new incident which involves radical Muslims. Xenophobia is definitely on the rise. Much more could be written on this subject, but this would be way beyond the scope of this forum. Suffice it to say that Spain could learn from the experiences of countries like Holland, Great Britain, France, Germany etc. which have attracted large numbers of migrants over the past few decades. Feel free to send me a PM if you would like to know more about the situation in Holland.

[Edith]

Here are the websites:

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=av&q=ayaan%20hirsi%20ali&recipe=all&scope=all&edition=i


http://www.sociosite.org/jihad_nl_en.php#rechtsextremisme


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4985636.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstad_Network

[richardksa]

Working with many Frenchmen I find there is definately an anti British sentiment over the perceived problem of all the British who are now residing in France; over 600,000 households at the last count. Is there a similar state of mind in Spain where surely a similar number of Brits have now taken residence? I must admit I haven't found one when I declare my intentions of moving to Spain to the Spanish I meet, but maybe they are being polite.

[Marbella]

Thanks for all that Edith, such a complex subject isn't it. Why is there so much hatred in the world? Sometimes I feel like I want to run and hide, move to a tiny little town in Spain somewhere and never listen, read or watch the news for the rest of my life. What would I be missing?

I've heard the anti-British thing about France before. It's still racism isn't it? Disliking someone just because they come from somewhere different to you. I bet the French get the same in Britain in equal measure.

When we moved to Marbella my son was targeted by a couple of Spanish teenagers, a lot older than him (he was just 8), just because he was English. Didn't matter that his mum is Spanish, they just hated the English. One of them even threatened the Spanish children in the urbanizacion not to play with him or else! Difficult to believe a 13 year old could do that to an 8 year old but there you go.

[richardksa]

Some years ago I used spend an hour or so every Sunday entertaining a three year old west indian child while his mother and my wife coached a swimming class. He was no problem and we would look at his picture books and play games. Then he started going to a playgroup and mixing with other black children. One morning he said to me, "I should kill you".
"Why?" I asked.
"Because you are white".
Racism, in either direction, starts early.

[Edith]

Thanks for all that Edith, such a complex subject isn't it. Why is there so much hatred in the world? Sometimes I feel like I want to run and hide, move to a tiny little town in Spain somewhere and never listen, read or watch the news for the rest of my life. What would I be missing?

You would miss absolutely nothing! :) I would love to move to a friendly little Spanish pueblo too, and perhaps I will do so after my retirement in 18 years' time even though I haven't got a penny, LOL

The British-French controversy has always puzzled me too because the wars between both countries which initiated this animosity happened such a long time ago. In Holland, we tend to be more pro-British than pro-French because of the language which is more like our own but we prefer to spend our holidays in France because of the climate and the cuisine. ;D Of course, being a nice person has got nothing to do with being French or British! It's like this irrational America-bashing which some Europeans enjoy so much. I know lots of Americans, both in real life and through the Internet, who are wonderful, intelligent, open-minded people. It's got nothing to do with nationality.

Racism, prejudice and hatred seem to be universal and people will use any sort of excuse to hate others... it's like bullying in school. A child doesn't have to anything 'wrong' to become the target of bullyers. P.s.; how is your son doing now? I really hope he has found soem Spanish friends!

Oh boy, this thread is going off-topic again! :) We were talking about Zapatero... ;-) What is your take on the way the PP and the Socialists handled 11-M? From what I have heard, the PP didn't handle the situation too well. How did Zapatero fare?

[Edith]

Some years ago I used spend an hour or so every Sunday entertaining a three year old west indian child while his mother and my wife coached a swimming class. He was no problem and we would look at his picture books and play games. Then he started going to a playgroup and mixing with other black children. One morning he said to me, "I should kill you".
"Why?" I asked.
"Because you are white".
Racism, in either direction, starts early.

How sad. He must have been indoctrinated by adults.:'(

Once I had an on-line discussion with a Black Muslim from the States and he said I was a racist even though I denied being one. According to him, all whites were racists. After I told him that was a racist statement in itself, the discussion ended.

[Marbella]

I should stress that the 2 ETA members on trial for his kidnap, torture and murder have not been found guilty (yet). They've shown absolutely no respect for the court of law and no respect at all for Blanco's family. They sit with their backs to the judge and laugh at the gory details of Blanco's torture and death.

Looking at the CNN video here of Blanco's family being ejected from the court today, I'm not sure they would be keen on Zapatero negotiating with ETA.

If the example of Blair and the IRA is anything to go by, letting people like this off with either no sentence or a greatly reduced one, will be abhorrent to this family after what happened.

http://www.elpais.es/articulo/espana/juez/expulsa/familiares/Miguel/angel/Blanco/insultar/presuntos/asesinos/elpporesp/20060620elpepunac_8/Tes/

[Marbella]

Negotiation or capitulation? Looks like surrender to me.

If the bloodshed and terror completely stops, then he will be a hero, but my feeling is that the world's terrorists, including ETA hardliners, will be encouraged by this news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5129306.stm

[Alan]

He's doing the exact same as Blair. The only difference is that he's being open about it. Of course Britain negotiated with the IRA - why else would they have stopped doing what they're doing? Well, there is another reason: terrorists are finding it harder to find support after America's "War on Terrorism". Being a terrorist used to carry a mystique - now they're abhorred.

I think this is the only move Zapatero could have made and I think he's going about the right way. It's quite clear that further attacks will halt negotiations and it's also quite clear that he's paying attention to the people who oppose the talks.

It's a tightrope and he's keeping his balance.

[Alan]

How sad. He must have been indoctrinated by adults.:'(

Once I had an on-line discussion with a Black Muslim from the States and he said I was a racist even though I denied being one. According to him, all whites were racists. After I told him that was a racist statement in itself, the discussion ended.

I've been told this before too. It was "ingrained" in me apparently. And this was from a friend. Tell me, if I was so racist, would I be friends with this Muslim in the first place?

[Edith]

Tell me, if I was so racist, would I be friends with this Muslim in the first place?

Touché! ;)

BTW, like you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, racism also exists in Africa. I have noticed it in Mexico too and especially in Guatemala, even though Latin Americans claim to be color blind. This is not true. Indians (Native Americans) and people of African descent are still being discriminated against in many Latin American countries, and white is still considered the most beautiful color. I guess a certain extent of racism and xenophobia is ingrained in all of us...