Catalonia votes...

[Polly]

I heard a blurb this afternoon on the radio news -
But am unsure what this actually means for the future of an independant / autonomous Catalonia... From what I understood of the news story (below) Catalonia will receive a greater control of their own affairs - and more local return/ control over income taxes generated in the region.
But they remain under the Spanish Central government, yes?


-- From Reuters, today:


Catalonia region voted overwhelmingly in favour of a statute giving it more autonomy on Sunday, but low turnout in the ballot immediately sparked questions about its validity.
According to official data, with 98.5 percent of the votes counted, 73.9 percent of Catalans said "yes" to a fiercely contested statute that has fired debate on autonomy in Spain's regions and reawakened sensitivities that date back to the Civil War of the 1930s.
But just under half of the five million Catalans eligible to vote did so, with 50.6 percent abstaining from the ballot.


The leader of the right-leaning main opposition party Mariano Rajoy said the result showed a lack of support for the central government-backed project.
"This has been a demonstration of common sense ... Catalans have not supported (Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez) Zapatero's personal project, 2 out of 3 of them were not in favour," Rajoy said, counting those who abstained as equal to a "no" vote.
The referendum gives Spain's wealthiest region a greater slice of its income tax and more spending is considered a test of strength of the central government.
The statute has been the subject of bitter dispute between regional and national political parties for more than a year, centring on a phrase that says Catalonia perceives itself as "a nation".
Compromise on that phrase in the final statute was eventually rejected by both ends of the political spectrum -- the right-leaning Popular Party (PP), which says it is a threat to Spanish unity, and the Catalan nationalist party Esquerra Republicana (ERC), which says it does not go far enough.
Zapatero's government, seen as inclined to give more autonomy to Spain's already powerful regions, campaigned for a "yes" result.
But the PP has accused the prime minister of selling out in both Catalonia and in the Basque Country, where the government aims to start peace talks with ETA separatist guerrillas after they declared a cease-fire in March.

[Marbella]

74% said yes, 21% said no, but just less than 50% of those eligible voted.
Remarkable that so many people didn't even bother.

Are Catalan feelings on this subject not as strong as we might think?
Did so many abstain because they felt it was a foregone conclusion?

Rajoy is being rather optimistic (probably more accurate to say only 37% were in favour) but even so, this is hardly a demonstration of Catalan resolve to be independent is it.

Does Catalonia have any poor areas? I was just wondering, as they will now keep more of their tax money for themselves, and they are already wealthy, if they might feel a bit guilty about taking money away from less well off areas like Extremadura and parts of Andalucia? Probably not. Will they make their own contributions to foreign aid, or will they in effect contribute less to this now as they will keep more for themselves?

The Basque country is very wealthy. If this goes the same way with regard to taxes then Zapatero will have a lot less cash to play with.

[Polly]

Voters in Puerto Rico have shown MUCH the same apathy when it comes down to adivsory referendums on statehood vs. independance

In the last non-binding advisory vote, Fewer than 50% of eligible voters turned out to the polls. Of those that did vote: 1% advocated complete independance from the United States, 36 % wanted Puerto Rico elevated to full statehood - and the remaining 69% were happy to let Puerto Rico remain as a territorial commonwealth.

Opponents to statehood believe that it will infringe on their sovereign rights and threaten their international presence and image. It is also extremely likely that the cost of living would skyrocket within a very short period of time -- due in great part, to revenue sharing with the rest of the country.

and unlike Catalonia,Puerto Rico is definately NOT wealthy - infact their governor recently shut down the government for several days due to a
seven million dollar deficit in the budget.

Then again, Proponents feel the trade-offs may be worth the sacrifices: Statehood would mean having a full voice and vote the Congress, as well as gaining electoral votes in the Presidental elections . Becoming a State would also put Puerto Rico on the same political footing as the other 50 states.

Still the majority appear (for now) to be happy with the status quo -- they have the best of both worlds -- full protection from the U.S., citizenship, and retirement benefits (social security, medicaid) - but pay no taxes to the U.S. Govt (outside of the above mentioned), and they retain separate cultural identity and recognition on the World stage.

It seems Catalonia is in a much better position than Puerto Rico to stand on it's own, if that's what the people want -- it does seem somehow strange (to me) that the regional identity appears so much stronger than the national identity when the country has been one for so long.

[Greg]

Since I'm not a citizen yet, I wasn't able to vote, but I did talk to a lot of people about what their plans were, and there seemed to be two reasons why those who weren't sure whether or not to vote might have abstained: first, a lot of the campaigning by the far left and far right left people confused. While the moderate parties came out in favor of the Estatut, both PP (the conservative party) and ERC (the Catalan leftist party) campaigned for a "no" vote, but for very different reasons: PP argued that it was a step toward dividing Spain, ERC insisted that it was a half measure that didn't go far enough toward Catalan independence.
Secondly, and probably more importantly for the low voter turnout, a lot of people claimed not to have enough information about the details of the Estatut before the vote. A coworker said that his wife had just received her information packet two days before the election, and still hadn't made up her mind. Personally I was surprised that more people didn't actively seek out information online, for example, but I think a lot of people were put off by the political infighting. And since voter turnout in the US in non-presidential years tends to be about the same, I can't criticize them too loudly. :)

[Marbella]

When Montenegro voted recently for independence from Serbia, the turnout was about 86%. The population is less than a million so it is a bit easier to get the message across I suppose.

[greytop]

Graffiti on a wall outside a polling station in Glasgow before a UK (general) election some years ago

The Valencian equivalent statute does not seem to have been anything like as contentious and was even held up as a good example of its type. I must read the papers here a bit more carefully. I thought that all the regions were doing some "housekeeping" and tidying up their respective regional responsibilities and rights. The Catalonians seem to have gone a little too far for the rest of Spain (and even some of themselves). Zapatero does not help by trying to be Mr Nice Guy to everyone - when you apply this to the regions, what pleases one upsets the neighbours.
Spaniards probably look on in similar amazement at the UK regional differences and calls for more regional autonomy. Some years ago the Shetland Isles (islands way north of Scotland) were even showing a preference to be Norwegian!

[Alan]

What was that graffiti in reference to?

Scotland voted for its parliament with similar majority - 74.3 % and a larger turnout - 64%. No questions were asked there.

Are we suggesting that Scotland's desire for independence is greater than Catalonia's? I don't think the argument that "Only 50% turned out, so that means only a third of the people want greater autonomy" has any clout. If the people who stayed at home really didn't want greater autonomy, they WOULD have voted. When you stay at home, you give up your right to any say, and your right to complain. I do agree with the right not to vote, but you should turn out, and destroy your paper. This shows the difference between laziness and political dissatisfaction.

On Shetland, Shetlanders do have a lot of Norwegian heritage to be fair. They see Edinburgh in much the same way as we central belt Scots see London :) Shetland was formerly spelt Zetland, which was a way of spelling Ȝetland without the old Scots letter yogh. But, Ȝ is pronounced like a Hy, and was taken from the Norwegian spelling Hjaltland. Until about 50 years ago, none of us would even have understood them when they spoke because their dialect of Scots was so heavily influenced by Norwegian.

I'd have no problem in letting Shetland go to Norway if they wanted to.

[gary]

first, a lot of the campaigning by the far left and far right left people confused.

This sentence had the same effect on me... :)

[gary]

[quote=Alan]
Are we suggesting that Scotland's desire for independence is greater than Catalonia's? [quote]

They may have the desire but not the cash - GDP per capita in Scotland is £16300 and in Wales £13000 and Northern Ireland £13500. The GDP for the UK as a whole is £36000 - do the maths and figure out who's paying the bills.

The GDP per capita in yorkshire is slightly lower than Scotlands but we're not bleating about independence - London and the South East certainly have a case....;)

[Alan]

You'd wonder why England is so concerned with keeping the UK.

Anyway, back to Catalonian matters . . .

[timg]

You'd wonder why England is so concerned with keeping the UK..
Is it England or English politicians?:rolleyes:

[guapo]

from what I read in the newspapers this morning it seems that, as you suggest, Zapatero in trying to please everybody ended up pleasing nobody. Will be in Barcelona next week so must ask my Catalan work mates how they voted (or if they voted...).

[richardksa]

It's our missionary zeal to the heathen! Signed an Englishman.

[gary]

You'd wonder why England is so concerned with keeping the UK.


err.........naaah......Hadrian had the right idea!

[Marbella]

Simon Jenkins likes the new statute. This article is well worth reading:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1802326,00.html