Are the Dutch growing 'long toes'?

[Edith]

The thread about raising bilingual kids reminded me of something which has been bothering me over the last couple of weeks.

Some of you may know that Holland's royal family is quite cosmopolitan, Máxima Zorreguieta from Argentina being the latest 'addition' from abroad.

Leaving the pros and cons of having a monarchy aside (I'm a republican myself :D), I believe members of the royal family are entitled to voice their opinion just like everyone else.

Last month, Princess Máxima made a speech in which she stated that there is no such thing as 'the' Dutch identity. She was quick to add that 'the' Argentinian identity does not exist, either:

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=221&story_id=44823

In my opinion, she was simply stating the obvious because we are not a nation of clones. People are different, even within families, and there are many other factors at play, e.g. regional, social, religious, ethnic and educational ones. More than two million people in Holland are of foreign origin (even people with one foreign-born parent are counted as 'foreigners' by the government! >:D). Half of them are from other EU member states or from our former colonies.

Therefore, I did not expect there would be such an uproar over her speech. But many were very offended by it without realizing what her message was really about, and the discussion has turned rather ugly and xenophobic. Máxima has become somewhat of a scapegoat and the incident is grist to the mill of right-wing populists.

Are we turning into a nation of bigots and narrow-minded country hicks? I hope not.

[eldeano]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:yB-pOXAyrhe8AM:http://www.topendsports.com/fun/bodysurvey/images/toes/big-toe.jpg

Would this be a Dutch big toe?

[tad]

A curious phrase, Edith -not one I have come across before.

This site is dedicated to the celebration of long toes (http://www.geocities.com/twinthrop/long.html)

[Beckett]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:yB-pOXAyrhe8AM:http://www.topendsports.com/fun/bodysurvey/images/toes/big-toe.jpg

Would this be a Dutch big toe?

Esa pie me da miedo de verdad. :eek:

[Edith]

A curious phrase, Edith -not one I have come across before.

This site is dedicated to the celebration of long toes (http://www.geocities.com/twinthrop/long.html)

True, I forgot to explain. :D The article I mentioned was written by a native speaker of English, but she also speaks Dutch and so does most of her expat audience in Holland. In Dutch, someone who 'has got long toes' is a person who takes offense very easily.

[Dave_K]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:yB-pOXAyrhe8AM:http://www.topendsports.com/fun/bodysurvey/images/toes/big-toe.jpg

Would this be a Dutch big toe?

I'd imagine it'd be hard for that Dutchman to find the right wooden shoe ;).

[eldeano]

I'd imagine it'd be hard for that Dutchman to find the right wooden shoe ;).

Shouldn't that be the left shoe?

[Isabelita]

A propósito de los dedos del pie largos: hay una imagen en alemán, pisarle a alguien en los dedos del pie, que significa ofender sin quererlo. Asique aquí están los alemanes, que pisan, y allí los holandeses, que se dejan pisar .... Pero, aparte de eso y con respecto a lo que Máxima dijo o no dijo: ya he leído varias veces que en el fondo la sociedad holandesa no es para nada lo tolerante y abierta que pretende ser, al contrario, y que a pesar de tener tantos descendientes de las colonias y mucha otra gente de otros países, inmigrados o refugiados, son muy conservadores. Yo entiendo el afán de conservar las raíces de la gente que ha reaccionado violentamente. Es una pena que Máxima, que era tan popular, haya perdido simpatías. Pero, ¿quién la asesoró, quién le escribió el dicurso?

[tad]

If anyone is interested, I have very long second toes

[Jon Hundt]

I agreed with her; coming from Oakland, California I grew up in a completely mixed-up environment. It is impossible to say what an Oakland reesident is like...

The problem is that Max is employed by a business (the Netherlands government) - and when she speaks, she speaks for that business. It's unfortunate for her, but in exchange for being a princess she has to work and she never gets time off in public.

So lots of people who don't see things the way you and I do got upset. It was pretty silly. But I don't think Holland is turning into a nation of bigots. That tendency was already pretty strong when I first came here in '78. It's just showing a little more in public these days.... and maybe there are reasons for that, too. But that's all very deep and serious and I sure don't feel the urge to go there right now...

[Dave_K]

If anyone is interested, I have very long second toes

In men, the 4th hand digit (ring finger) is generally longer than the second digit (index finger). In women, they're about the same length or the index finger is longer.

Lots of interesting scientific research on the second-to-fourth-digit ratio and what it's related to (testosterone mainly, and all the things that go with testosterone).

[tad]

Lots of interesting scientific research on the second-to-fourth-digit ratio and what it's related to (testosterone mainly, and all the things that go with testosterone).

Wasn't that ring finger to index finger ratio?

[Edith]

I agreed with her; coming from Oakland, California I grew up in a completely mixed-up environment.

So did I, in a way: my family doesn't fit into any kind of neat Dutch pigeonhole because my mother was from Germany - we also have some Jewish ancestry. Many people here in Holland just couldn't understand what that was all about, except for those who were 'mutts' like me. :D

Do you know the Expatica forum? Some of the comments made by English-speaking expats sound rather familiar to me: my mother also hated those Dutch birthday parties and, to be honest, so do I! Many of my friends are Indo-Dutch ('Indisch') and their get-togethers are so much more laid-back. Lots of great food and more than one koekje bij de koffie. :thumbs-up:

The thing is, I really haven't got a clue why many people are so upset because of Máxima's remarks, I just don't get it. It almost seems as if they like all those stale old stereotypes and clichés about themselves, and as if they can't differentiate between individuals.

And why do they feel the need to launch all kinds of personal attacks against Máxima because of this speech? Only people who feel deeply insecure about themselves react in this way.

But I don't think Holland is turning into a nation of bigots. That tendency was already pretty strong when I first came here in '78.

This is a topic which I find very interesting; I just 'lurk' at Expatica but many of the comments seem to show how many English-speaking expats really feel about living in Holland. Some of them have been here for a very long time.

I understand why you don't want to open this can of worms but you don't need to restrain yourself on my behalf! ;)

[Edith]

ya he leído varias veces que en el fondo la sociedad holandesa no es para nada lo tolerante y abierta que pretende ser, al contrario, y que a pesar de tener tantos descendientes de las colonias y mucha otra gente de otros países, inmigrados o refugiados, son muy conservadores.

Es verdad. Según la prensa amarilla, hay 'tres millones de 'inmigrantes' (allochtonen) en Holanda. Es una tontería. Gran parte de esta gente han nacido en Holanda y muchos solamente tienen un padre o una madre extranjero. Tampoco creo que haya un millón de musulmanes en Holanda, porque nuestro gobierno incluye los 500,000 indonesios que son cristianos.

Pero, ¿quién la asesoró, quién le escribió el dicurso?

El gobierno! :D ;)

[ValenciaSon]

I thought this thread was about Dutch long toes:confused:

[Edith]

I thought this thread was about Dutch long toes:confused:

'Tis. :D See post # 5.

[Edith]

Yo entiendo el afán de conservar las raíces de la gente que ha reaccionado violentamente.

El mestizaje ya es una realidad en Holanda. Ya en los años sesenta conocí a mucha gente como yo, gente de orígen bi-nacional o bi-racial - y todos eran ciudadanos holandeses. Desde el fin de los años ochenta el gobierno nos llama 'allochtonen' ('inmigrantes') aunque hemos nacido aquí.

En mi opinión, hay varias maneras de sentirse holandés y nuestra sociedad no es algo estático. La comunidad indo-holandés es un buen ejemplo de la integración exitosa y mucha gente no se da cuenta de eso cuando habla del 'fracaso del multiculturalismo'.

Los problemas con los inmigrantes de orígen mahgrebí y turco - que vienen de regiones rurales y muy conservadoras - solamente constituyen un lado de la medalla.

Entre los turcos de orígen alevita el integrismo no existe, son gente muy moderna y trabajadora. La autora Nilgün Yerli es uno de ellos (artículo en holandés):

http://www.zwartekat.nl/yerli/

Ya se iba de Holanda, aunque provisionalmente. Ella siempre se sentía parte de una nueva identidad mestiza y era una buena ciudadana de nuestro país. Su salida es una lástima, porque necesitamos gente como ella - espero que regrese.

También hay una pequeña comunidad iraní en Holanda y muchos de ellos son progresistas que huyeron del régimen radical en Teheran.

También hay antilleanos que se integran bien - conozco a muchos y tienen nada en común con los jóvenes desarraigados de Curaçao que causan tantos problemas en las grandes ciudades.

Compartimos parte de nuestra historia con la gente de orígen indonesio, antilleano y surinamense. Muchos holandeses prefieren olvidarse de la época colonial pero forma parte integral de nuestra historia - entonces, los lazos culturales siguen existiendo. En las Antillas y en Suriname, el holandés todavía es la lengua oficial y hay obras literarias en este idioma. También forman parte del 'Nederlandse Taalunie', una organización que se ocupa de la lengua holandesa.


Hay que diferenciar y no estigmatizar, como lo hacen los políticos populistas como Geert Wilders.

[greytop]

If anyone is interested, I have very long second toesMe too - and a Dutch grandfather. SPOOKY :eek:

[Edith]

Me too - and a Dutch grandfather. SPOOKY :eek:

;D

[ValenciaSon]

Are you familiar with Double Dutch?http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:OpxPI9RwCkCqjM:http://www.ehs.org/sshr/Anniversary4.jpgLong toes won't help here:rolleyes:

[greytop]

Double Dutch in the UK is gobbledegook. Divided by a common language again ;D;D

[ValenciaSon]

In Holland, it's something else:http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10870695/Double_Dutch_Premium_Beer.jpg

[Jon Hundt]

I sure never saw that Double Dutch beer over here in Holland!

[eldeano]

This one got banned over here. :eek:

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/293942.jpg

[Edith]

Are you familiar with Double Dutch?http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:OpxPI9RwCkCqjM:http://www.ehs.org/sshr/Anniversary4.jpgLong toes won't help here:rolleyes:

Yep! Double Dutch, Dutch courage, Dutch oven (:D:D:D), Dutch treat, the lot!

My toes aren't very long, I've got small feet for my length. ;D

[eldeano]

What about 'going Dutch'?

[Edith]

What about 'going Dutch'?

That one too... and it's true! :D

[ValenciaSon]

What about 'going Dutch'?This might help you Catmanhttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:MxPPVGkJ3RpJVM:http://www.atouchofdutch.com/images/Dutch%2520dummies.png

[ValenciaSon]

Is this how you stay organized, Edith?http://www.penreader.com/screenshots/piloc/dutch1.gif

[ValenciaSon]

Edith, does this look like your home?http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:avDo0TH1t-gFPM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons

[Edith]

Edith, does this look like your home?http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:avDo0TH1t-gFPM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons

Yep, definitely - I also wear clogs to work and I make my own Gouda cheese! ;D

[ValenciaSon]

Yep, definitely - I also wear clogs to work and I make my own Gouda cheese! ;DHow do you make Gouda cheese if you have one finger in the dyke?http://bkmarcus.com/blog/images/goofs/FingerDyke.jpgI see your clogs, Edith.:rolleyes:

[eldeano]

Edith, does this look like your home?http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:avDo0TH1t-gFPM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons

I think you'll find that's where Tiny Tim lived (not the one off A Christmas Carol).

[Edith]

How do you make Gouda cheese if you have one finger in the dyke?http://bkmarcus.com/blog/images/goofs/FingerDyke.jpgI see your clogs, Edith.:rolleyes:

Don't you know that women are very good at multi-tasking? :D

[eldeano]

if you have one finger in the dyke?

Remember that discussion about how some words mean different things in different countries?

[ValenciaSon]

I sure never saw that Double Dutch beer over here in Holland!
That's because it's imported:rolleyes:

[ValenciaSon]

Here is a new Avatar for you, Edith. I called it "La Jedi Holandesa"

[Dave_K]

Yep! Double Dutch, Dutch courage, Dutch oven (:D:D:D), Dutch treat, the lot!

My toes aren't very long, I've got small feet for my length. ;D

Don't forget the Pennsylvania Dutch;)

[Edith]

Don't forget the Pennsylvania Dutch;)

The funny thing is, they speak some old dialect of German, not Dutch! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch

[Edith]

ValenciaSon,

What are those intrigueing thingies on your toilet seat? :)Is it a space toilet?

[ValenciaSon]

ValenciaSon,

What are those intrigueing thingies on your toilet seat? :)Is it a space toilet?Thumbtackshttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:IbD8ZgyspIR0_M:http://www.jwodcatalog.com/imgLg/7510002726887.jpg

[Diana]

The funny thing is, they speak some old dialect of German, not Dutch! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch


All my life I had been told that my father's grandparents (on his mother's side) were Dutch. Recently I found them in the 1910 census records where it states that they were from Germany. I guess this was once again the Deutsch-Dutch mistake!! Hard to believe but probably true.

[Edith]

I guess this was once again the Deutch-Dutch mistake!! Hard to believe but probably true.

You are not alone! Many people don't know that the Pennsylvania Dutch are not from Holland, either.

[eldeano]

Thumbtackshttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:IbD8ZgyspIR0_M:http://www.jwodcatalog.com/imgLg/7510002726887.jpg

Which way up are they? ;)

[tad]

Which way up are they? ;)

He likes all that sort of thing -do you remember the whips? ;)

[Maria S.]

You are not alone! Many people don't know that the Pennsylvania Dutch are not from Holland, either.

This is very true. There is a common misconception about the Dutch and Deutsch.

Having lived in Maryland we sometimes visited the Amish country up north in Pennsylvania. The Amish surely speak German with a heavy dialect among each other. When they are asked by American tourists about what language they speak etc., they act ignorant or just plainly ignore their questions. I have witnessed this many times. It must get tiresome after a while.

The Amish were more receptive to any questions when I asked in German though.

[Edith]

The Amish were more receptive to any questions when I asked in German though.

I bet they were pretty astonished when you addressed them in German! :)

P.s.: have you seen the movie Witness, which was filmed on location in Lancaster County? That was one of the best crime stories I have ever seen.

One of the scenes which I remember very vividly is when the Amish boy sees an old Hasidic man at the train station. Their eyes meet for a few seconds and the boy notices they both wear the same kind of clothes even though they belong to different ethnic groups. No words are spoken but the message is clear - they both live in their own little worlds, so different from the rest of American society. It's just one of those psychological hints which I really liked about the movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_(1985_movie)

[Maria S.]

I bet they were pretty astonished when you addressed them in German! :)

P.s.: have you seen the movie Witness, which was filmed on location in Lancaster County? That was one of the best crime stories I have ever seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_(1985_movie)

Maybe they were astonished, but they did not show it. They usually act pretty blaisé about it. I guess they have been raised to ignore any questions coming from the "English" or touristy question for that matter.

Yes, I have seen this movie and it is great!! Worth watching it again, definitely.

As a matter of fact, I could imagine living with the Amish for a couple of weeks. What do you think about that? You live without a phone, without a hair dryer and without electricity and so much more. Wouldn't that be a holiday?!?!

[ValenciaSon]

Maybe they were astonished, but they did not show it. They usually act pretty blaisé about it. I guess they have been raised to ignore any questions coming from the "English" or touristy question for that matter.

Yes, I have seen this movie and it is great!! Worth watching it again, definitely.

As a matter of fact, I could imagine living with the Amish for a couple of weeks. What do you think about that? You live without a phone, without a hair dryer and without electricity and so much more. Wouldn't that be a holiday?!?!I'm sorry, were you saying something?:rolleyes:

[Edith]

As a matter of fact, I could imagine living with the Amish for a couple of weeks. What do you think about that? You live without a phone, without a hair dryer and without electricity and so much more. Wouldn't that be a holiday?!?!

Yes, but without the dress code and all the other rules. ;D

[ValenciaSon]

Yes, but without the dress code and all the other rules. ;DYou do have the Gouda making cred.:rolleyes:

[Edith]

You do have the Gouda making cred.:rolleyes:

;D

[Dave_K]

Levitating Dutchman outside of White House yesterday:

9OvVltLwkLQ

[tad]

I can do that.

[Dave_K]

....and to connect things to Spain....this Spanish ex-pat (from Valencia, I think) has been camping outside the White House every day for like 25 years, protesting pretty much everything:

http://photos23.flickr.com/34984469_794e1cb79c_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/simmermon/34984469/)

[Edith]

I can do that.

Can you do Indian rope tricks too? :D

[tad]

No, but I have the ability to levitate myself (not just hover like that guy)

[Palmerito]

You are not alone! Many people don't know that the Pennsylvania Dutch are not from Holland, either.

I grew up in Lancaster County (Pennsylvania Dutch country). It was a common misconception we continually had to explain to tourists that the PA Dutch ancestry was German (Deutsch), not Holland.

I haven't lived there for over 30 years now, but friends of mine who are still in the Lancaster County area tell me that the Amish and Mennonites still hold on to their farms despite the huge influx of tourism. They are the reason for the tourism.

The Amish are an insular community and steadfastly hold on to their customs despite all outside influence. The Mennonites are a more varied community. Some of the households in their community shun many modern conveniences such as television, radio, flashy cars, going to movies; while there are other households who will be more accepting of these things. When I grew up there, cars in the 50's and early 60's all had chrome bumpers. The part of the Mennonite community who did drive cars, sometimes would paint the bumpers black. They didn't want anything "flashy".

As opposed to farms in the midwestern states, the farms of the Amish are generally smaller. They are passed down from one generation to another. They are some of the richest soils in all North America. I hope they can hold on to their way of life for generations to come.

In Lancaster County, they are known as "The Gentle People". They are also very strong in spirit. You may have heard of the madman who last year went berserk and shot and killed several young girls in an Amish schoolhouse. The resilience of the families after that tragedy was amazing. They were forgiving. They even were concerned about the welfare of the wife of the gunman.

[Maria S.]

In Lancaster County, they are known as "The Gentle People". They are also very strong in spirit. You may have heard of the madman who last year went berserk and shot and killed several young girls in an Amish schoolhouse. The resilience of the families after that tragedy was amazing. They were forgiving. They even were concerned about the welfare of the wife of the gunman.

The last sentence is truly amazing, but yet not surprising to anyone who has ever studied the doctrine of the Amish.

I have heard of people doing four-week internships with the Amish. If I could stay there for a couple of weeks, I think I would get a somewhat better glimpse of their way of life. Of course, I would be happy to return to "civilization" after that, but I am sure I would return a better person.

Being German and talking to the Amish in their Swabian dialect was very enchanting. They would volunteer extra information and were very kind. On the other hand, when confronted by the "English" and/or tourists, their answers became standard.

I guess after a lifetime of being told by ignorant tourists that they are thought to be Dutch, I don't blame them for holding out.

On the other hand, the Amish seem to venture out in respect to business. One of my friends in Monkton, MD, had a small barn built by an Amish "contractor" who came down with his friends. There was the problem of who's driving, but that got settled. No vows were broken.

I see a lot of dignity in their way of handling things.

[gtappend]

What do you think about that? You live without a phone, without a hair dryer and without electricity and so much more. Wouldn't that be a holiday?!?!

Actually, that's pretty much the situation at a Scout camp. :)

[eldeano]

No, but I have the ability to levitate myself (not just hover like that guy)

That should make for an interesting video blog. :p

[tad]

OK I'll try and do one. It requires a lot of zen type energy though, so I'll need to wait for the most opportune moment. :cool:

[ValenciaSon]

OK I'll try and do one. It requires a lot of zen type energy though, so I'll need to wait for the most opportune moment. :cool:Use a soundtrack from this era:rolleyes:

[tad]

Use a soundtrack from this era:rolleyes:
I have found out that the series that I'm talking about did flop in america, however, a pretty big american star, er, starred in it

[ValenciaSon]

I have found out that the series that I'm talking about did flop in america, however, a pretty big american star, er, starred in itWell that narrows the field.:rolleyes: What year?

[tad]

Well that narrows the field.:rolleyes: What year?

A while ago....:)

Was in colour though ;)

[eldeano]

A while ago....:)

Was in colour though ;)

I'll narrow it down a bit. The year either began with a 1 or a 2. :smug: