Notes from Spain Podcast no. 41 - Spanish wine

[Ben]

Ben chats to Ryan from Catavino.net (http://catavino.net). (Listen here (http://www.notesfromspain.com/446/)). Any questions about Spanish wine? Fire away!

[Marbella]

Good one guys. The only thing that was missing for me was the sounds of a cork being pulled, the glug-glug as the wine is poured and then the tasting with lots of swirling, sniffing and slurping...Maybe we have to go over to the Catavino podcast for that.

My two penneth:


Rioja, for me, is still the king of top end red wines but it is over-priced and it is true there is too much bad quality around at the bottom end of the Rioja market. The Rioja boom in the 90's led to an arrogance which might have backfired on the Riojan bodegas. However, if you travel to La Rioja you will see no evidence of a slump in fortunes. Bodegas are expanding, they are far more geared up for wine tourism than ever, and the new buildings are very impressive. Riojan reds will reign supreme again in Spain but they have to learn some lessons on pricing and be aware of the competition.
Top tip #1: if you are out having tapas or just a drink in Spain, and you want a glass of red wine, don't be afraid to order un tinto de crianza. In my experience, for just a very small amount of extra cash (I'm talking no more than 30 to 50 cents) you'll get a better quality wine.
Top tip #2: if red wine is your tipple and you want to have a glass when the weather is hot in the summer, chill a bottle of young red wine. Sacrilege!! I can hear you purists cry. But look, I married into a family of Riojan grape growers, bodega owners and Rioja wine fanatics. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me.
Top tip #3: do tour the bodegas, they are free visits or just a few euros, and at the end you'll get a freebie anyway. My recommendations are either Freixenet or Codorniu if you are in Catalonia and like the cava or Tio Pepe in Jerez if you like sherry. I really liked the Tio Pepe one best; not only do you get to see the production but also there are hundreds of barrels signed by famous people from their visits over the years. Churchill, Thatcher, Franco, Ana Obregon...

[Ben]

Great tips thank you!
Have you ever been to Laguardia in the Alaves part of La Rioja? It's a medieval walled town on a hill full of bars selling incredible local crianza out of un-labelled bottles... heaven!
And I agree, nothing wrong with chilling red wine every now and again!

[Marbella]

...Have you ever been to Laguardia...

Ben, don't do this to me!!!!!!!!!! Don't get me started. How do I reply, using the written word, and convey the emotion when you mention that name. What a place Laguardia is, oh yes, we've been so many times.

We had some close English friends who had never been to Spain before, in fact had rarely travelled outside of the UK. They wanted to avoid the costas and asked if we would spend a few days somewhere in Northern Spain with them. We chose Laguardia and they adored it.

To stick to the wine theme, one of my favourite wines comes from there, not that I can afford to drink it often. Artadi, Pagos Viejos. We were fortunate enough to have dinner a few years ago in El Bulli, Ferran Adria's food temple in Catalunya. Some people on the next table were enthusing about the wine they were drinking so my wife asked them what it was and amazingly they asked the waiter for 2 glasses and told him to pour us a glass each from their bottle! Feeling a bit tipsy, and not thinking that it could be worth thousands of pesetas, I said I'd return the gesture and get us all another bottle to share (luckily it wasn't too expensive). They said that the wine was in short supply at the time so was not on the wine list but he had a word with the sommelier and they brought another to the table. Wow, what lovely stuff it was!

BTW (don't I go on? just keep eye-contact at this point, smile reassuringly and shuffle back towards the door closing it quickly behind you) I saw this wine on sale in a huge wine merchants in Madrid last week and I was tempted to buy a couple of bottles to put away for a special occasion or something. I was talking to a friendly young guy in the shop and I asked if I could take a photo so I could show you all the scale of this place. But the chap who my friend asked, I gather he was in charge, threw a fit at my suggestion (I explained I was just a dozy tourist and not out to steal some trade). I didn't mind not being able to take the photo but he was aggressive so I didn't buy the wine. My loss I suppose:(.

[Ben]

My loss I suppose:(.
No, his in the long run. You will find somewhere else to get that wine in the end... Glad you knew Laguardia. If only it were just one hour closer to Madrid... (it's about 3 and a bit...)

[Marbella]

I ought to point out to NFS friends here, or I'll get a clip round the ear, that Laguardia is technically and administratively part of Pais Vasco (Basque Country) but it lies in a wine region called Rioja Alavesa so the wines qualify as Riojas.

These regional issues in Spain are funny: on hearing that we had stayed in Laguardia and thought the wine was great, an uncle said, "what do you want to drink the wines there for? We have great wines here." The fact that he was saying this in a town less than 5 km away in La Rioja, drinking wine probably made from the same grapes as that made in Laguardia didn't occur to him. So territorial these people.

There are some nice pics on this site if anyone would like to see how beautiful this area is.

http://www.laguardia-alava.com/

[catavino]

Rioja, for me, is still the king of top end red wines but it is over-priced and it is true there is too much bad quality around at the bottom end of the Rioja market. The Rioja boom in the 90's led to an arrogance which might have backfired on the Riojan bodegas. However, if you travel to La Rioja you will see no evidence of a slump in fortunes. Bodegas are expanding, they are far more geared up for wine tourism than ever, and the new buildings are very impressive. Riojan reds will reign supreme again in Spain but they have to learn some lessons on pricing and be aware of the competition.
Top tip #1: if you are out having tapas or just a drink in Spain, and you want a glass of red wine, don't be afraid to order un tinto de crianza. In my experience, for just a very small amount of extra cash (I'm talking no more than 30 to 50 cents) you'll get a better quality wine.
Top tip #2: if red wine is your tipple and you want to have a glass when the weather is hot in the summer, chill a bottle of young red wine. Sacrilege!! I can hear you purists cry. But look, I married into a family of Riojan grape growers, bodega owners and Rioja wine fanatics. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me.
Top tip #3: do tour the bodegas, they are free visits or just a few euros, and at the end you'll get a freebie anyway. My recommendations are either Freixenet or Codorniu if you are in Catalonia and like the cava or Tio Pepe in Jerez if you like sherry. I really liked the Tio Pepe one best; not only do you get to see the production but also there are hundreds of barrels signed by famous people from their visits over the years. Churchill, Thatcher, Franco, Ana Obregon...

Just a clarifier. Most of the new building in Rioja is being funded by the EU, not by the bodegas. Frank Gehry's Riscal building: EU funds and sadly it was diverted from places that might have been used for making wine. It's quite sad that certain ego's needed more stroking than helping out the family farm. From what I heard the money was to be used to help develop wineries that needed to improve production methods so as to reduce the surplus of low quality wines. Politics won this battle though. Rioja is a dinosaur that has some new comers doing it right and inovating: Roda, Tobias, Remirez de Ganuza, etc...but saying that they are king of reds is turning your eye to the Priorat, Bierzo, Ribera del Duero, Toro, Somotano, Campo de Borja, and many more. Diversity is the spice of life.

As far as wine at a bar I agree, great tip.

As far as chilling red wine, all red wine should be chilled. Most is served too warm, and I send mine back regularly. I even got an ice bucket the other day from a waiter who thought I was crazy, just to chill the "room" temperature wine I ordered. Perfect serving temperature for a red wine is room temperature if you live in a wine cellar 14-18 degrees C...if your room is that cold your not in Madrid!;)

Bodegas if they are big will give tours and offer them. On the other hand with a few exceptions(I love the tio pepe tour) if you call ahead the smaller ones will also do stuff for you and often it will be more personal. More research but worth the work. Check out: http://www.bodegascastiblanque.com/ to see a place in LaMancha worth a visit too. In Montsant these guys are amazing and highly personalize everything: http://www.ficariavins.net/html_en/who.htm

[Marbella]

... new comers doing it right and inovating: Roda, Tobias, Remirez de Ganuza, etc...but saying that they are king of reds is turning your eye

Don't misunderstand me, we always try wines from other regions, it would be narrow minded not to of course. Rioja is the king of reds to me as it gives me so much pleasure to find a good one. It's not a recommendation to others to treat it as such, just my very personal choice based on a not so misguided loyalty.

Thanks for the great tips on the other bodegas, must try to get to some of them soon.

[catavino]

Understood! No I know many a person who loves Rioja, and in the end like I said in the Podcast "if it tastes good it's good!"

Do you have a favorite to recommend, personally it's harder every day to find one I'll go out of my way for. I'm always open to suggestions.

[Marbella]

Understood! No I know many a person who loves Rioja, and in the end like I said in the Podcast "if it tastes good it's good!"

Do you have a favorite to recommend, personally it's harder every day to find one I'll go out of my way for. I'm always open to suggestions.

Absolutely, once you get into wine drinking, beyond the stage of just getting drunk, it's a very personal taste, unless it is one of the universally great wines like a petrus or something. Another example is I can't drink whisky unless it's got a cold can of coca-cola poured into it. But I know people who drink it neat and talk about malts etc. like they are fine wines. To me it just tastes like I imagine fuel/petrol tastes.

Wines often to me relate to events e.g. the Artadi I mentioned above. I couldn't recommend a Rioja to drink now beyond what you can find on the supermarket shelf. We've drunk some fine gran reservas over the years but to be honest it's rare I'd pay out for one of those these days as the quality is so patchy.

You know when the Rioja tastes best? When I'm sitting up there in the bodeguilla, with a plate of chuletillas, morcilla and chorizo all cooked by a jolly old aunt over a fire lit from the vines taken from the fields around. Then, it can be in a bottle with no label made by the local cooperative but the uncle plonks on the table a bottle for him, one for me, and one for the ladies to share and it tastes sooo great.:) :)

[ValenciaSon]

My fond memory of wine in Spain is limited by the fact that I was underage when last in Spain. However, I remember going to the local bodega to fill the garafa and even back then really appreciating the rich aroma of that bodega. Folks in the US are often shocked to hear that as a child, I was sent to buy wine. I can't wait to go to Spain go as an adult. Maybe even LaGuardia.

[Marbella]

Is this an historic moment for NFS?

Is ValenciaSon the first Mega Forero???

[Ben]

He is indeed!

[Marina]

I used to make jokes with Ben because ValenciaSon had more or less the same number of posts as I did. In the end it has been impossible for me to keep up, I've only have 214 posts myself.

Congratulations for ValenciaSon!!!

[ValenciaSon]

:blush:Oh gosh! I'll try not to turn into a megalomaniac;D

[greytop]

Thanks guys - I enjoyed the podcast and for those not fortunate enough to live in Spain I´ll add my bit about local wine. When I lived in UK I usually went for a Bordeaux or similar although tried many others and more often than not ended up with some from the region to the East of Bordeaux (entre deux mers) I´ve also lived for a while in Italy and like their local production especially the merlots.
Here I find many drinkable reds from about 2€ - 5€ a bottle in supermarkets and wine shops. I look for grape types rather than regions - merlot, tempranilla for example. I´ve not been too impressed with the few whites I´ve tried, although cava is great for something different.
Next step up are usually a few years old and very tasty. Then there is the dear stuff which is well worth the extra money if you´ve got it but it has to be a really special occasion for us pensionistas!
There also bodegas / cantinas where they display the barrels, you can sample the goods and go away with 2 or 5 litre plastic bottles for not a lot of money. I don´t really drink enough to use that service very often but it is interesting to taste locally produced wine sold by people who know it and they have bottles for sale from the local area as well. I´m into a 2005 Val de Jalón for 2.05€ a bottle at present. The 2004 was nicer but all gone!
One other source of info is to talk to restaurant/bar owners about the wine you´ve just drunk and liked. They are often able to point you in the direction of a local supplier.
I agree with Catavino - what you like is what is good. His website is very entertaining and informative but nothing is more fun than exercising your own tastebuds!
¡Salud y feliz caza!

[Leah]

I can tell you all you want to know about Italian wines, but as far as spanish wines go... I'm totally ignorant. It's not my fault! Spanish isn't sold in Italy. I do have to say that when I was in Cordoba I fell in love with a drink that at first I thought was total sacrilege but than when I tasted it...el amor de mi vida. I can't remember the name but it's that chilled red wine with soda mixed in... buenisimo. In Italy, you'd be hung in the plaza as a heretic if you drank that!

as far as chilled wines go, here as well you find some red wines that are chilled, especially bubbly red wine like Lambrusco. However, it's very important to respect the wine and only chill it to the correct point because if you go beyond that, you risk not tasting (and smelling) a lot of the flavor...the same goes for whites.

saluti da Bologna, where it's 6:00 p.m. and 33 degrees and I'd love some of that chilled wine soda loveliness (especially as I'm looking at the forecast and it should be 38 and very very very humid in the next few days)

Leah

[Marbella]

BBC again, but I heard this story on the Today programme earlier and it might link in some way to Catavino's comments on the EU spend in La Rioja.

It shakes my faith a little bit in the EU when you see how much they spend - !!500 million euros!! - just on dealing with wine over production. I mean, if I had a business and I so grossly miscalculated what I could sell, I'd expect for the business to go under.

Does the graph at the bottom of the piece tell a story about the Spanish public's wine loyalty? France for example appears as a main exporter and a main importer of wine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5105176.stm

[Leah]

eek. don't get me started on EU spending on agriculture. I'm curious to know whether in Spain the same phenomena is occuring as in Italy where farmers (large farms at least) will pretty grow anything as long as they get EU subsidies. Anyone know?

[Marbella]

eek. don't get me started on EU spending on agriculture. I'm curious to know whether in Spain the same phenomena is occuring as in Italy where farmers (large farms at least) will pretty grow anything as long as they get EU subsidies. Anyone know?

Pretty much. This has been going on for years though.

Welcome to NFS by the way. It's great to have an Italian perspective on things too!

[catavino]

I did a short article (http://catavino.net/archives/439/2006/06/12/) on this and the fact that they are trying to change it. Turns out the new Agriculture Commissioner Mariann Fischer Boel, wants to make some drastic changes that will be met with oposition but if adopted will make a world of difference. We need change and in end a lot of the issues remain mis-understood.

[catavino]

I agree with Catavino - what you like is what is good. His website is very entertaining and informative but nothing is more fun than exercising your own tastebuds!
¡Salud y feliz caza!

Thanks for you complement. We are trying to do our best and give you all great information. Let us know if there is any theme, grape, region, or bodega that you want us to cover next and we´ll do our best to get it done.

Also thanks to Ben and Marina for helping us get the word out!

[celia s]

Last year,I attended a prom concert in England,featuring Jose Carreras.Torres Wines (Penedes),were one of the major sponsor's of the event.
Their range of wines is vast.(20 from Catalonia alone)having taken over some neighbouring vineyards and invested in California and Chile.
We managed to quaff quite a lot of Torres Gran Coronas Cabernet Sauvignon Reserva.
The wine is a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon and Tempranillo.
Mmm......strong and vigorous and reasonably priced(about £12 a bottle)

[catavino]

More info on EU wine law changes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5105176.stm?ls)

I´m personally excited to see if they can pull off these changes. It could mean great things for Europe´s wine industry.

[Marbella]

when I was in Cordoba I fell in love with a drink that at first I thought was total sacrilege but than when I tasted it...el amor de mi vida. I can't remember the name but it's that chilled red wine with soda mixed in... buenisimo.


Sounds like un tinto de verano to me. I agree it's a very refreshing drink.

[celia s]

Thanks Ben and Catavino.I had my first glass of Fino last week,at the age of 38!It is quite an acquired taste but I think I could get very used to it!

[catavino]

Thanks Ben and Catavino.I had my first glass of Fino last week,at the age of 38!It is quite an acquired taste but I think I could get very used to it!

Way to go! It might take a try or two, but once your hooked it's hard to find anything nicer on a hot day! Which one did you try? If you have the chance try to find La Cigarrera (http://catavino.net/archives/117/2005/09/24/)....

cheers!

[celia s]

Hi Catavino.
Great website!I have listened to a couple of your podcasts too.Could you do one about Sherry, soon ?
Call me conventional but I opted for one of the better known brands,Tio Pepe,Palomino Fino ( NV).
Mmm...nutty and tangy.I have just bought another bottle.It is very hot in England at the moment!
I also need to practice for my trip to Madrid later this year!
Thanks for the tip.

[catavino]

Hi Catavino.
Great website!I have listened to a couple of your podcasts too.Could you do one about Sherry, soon ?
Call me conventional but I opted for one of the better known brands,Tio Pepe,Palomino Fino ( NV).
Mmm...nutty and tangy.I have just bought another bottle.It is very hot in England at the moment!
I also need to practice for my trip to Madrid later this year!
Thanks for the tip.

I love Tio Pepe, great stuff. In fact I did an interview with one of the daughters of Gonzalez Byass the makers of Tio Pepe (http://catavino.net/archives/412/2006/06/02/). On the other hand soon Maybe I'll do a primer to the world of sherry , jsut to help spread the word! Thanks, ryan

[celia s]

Thanks Catavino.
I have downloaded the podcast.I also enjoyed the virtual tour of Tio Pepe Bodegas.I think I might be visiting Andalucia next year!

[Enrique NYC]

just listened to the podcast with Ryan. Fascinating as usual, Ben!

I drink quite a bit of Spanish wine, and I've recently noticed plastic corks are becoming more common. The Portuguese cork industry is being a bit heavy-handed with the propaganda, but I figured it simply boils down to whether I want to support a sustainable natural resource, or another disposable petroleum product.

[Edith]

I drink quite a bit of Spanish wine, and I've recently noticed plastic corks are becoming more common. The Portuguese cork industry is being a bit heavy-handed with the propaganda, but I figured it simply boils down to whether I want to support a sustainable natural resource, or another disposable petroleum product.

Plastic corks are often very hard to pull from the bottle, which is one of the reasons why I prefer old-fashioned real corks!

I prefer Spanish wine anyway and in Holland, where I live, most Spanish wine bottles have still got real corks.

[catavino]

ABRC - Anything but real cork - 99 percent of the time. Real cork ruins 10% of the bottled wine out there, some say less, but the lowest I have seen quoted is 4%, either way no other consumable product is allowed to be rotten that often. imagine every tenth steak at your butcher shop being rotten, would you continue to go there?

TCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2C4%2C6-trichloroanisole) is a chemical found in cork that leads to an off flavor. The worst part is most people don't know what it is or tastes like. I've been in groups where people said they didn't like the wine only to find out it was tainted. I've opened another bottle on these occasions and people were dumbfounded that it was the same wine. The Best alternative for 99% of the wine is a screw cap. I can buy 100euro brandy with a screw cap, and I can't buy a wine for 3 bucks with one? Screws caps garuntee young wines stay fresh. New Zealand is now almsot 100% screwcap for this reason. Real cork while a sustainable resource, has many other outlets for it's sale and use (http://catavino.net/archives/446/2006/06/15/). The only time I endorse it is on wines meant to age more than 5-10 years. The wine, some believe, needs the miniscule amount of air let in to age the wine properly, until the tests that are being run (CH Haut Brion a First growth bordeaux, has something like 15 years of wines aging in screw caps as a test) I will continue to advocate for cork for these bottles. Once again though, the amount of wine in the world that should be aged that long is less than a percent of total wine produced.

Plastic corks suck, I know, but the wine tends to be fresher, more alive and without TCA taint. Demand screw caps and the plastic corks will fade away. Next time you by a high end liquor notice how many have screw caps. On the other hand some have t-tops with cork as part of them. I had a 25yr old scotch the was TCA tainnted because of this cork.

Dried out tree bark is not a modern solution. We moved away from horse and buggies and we now have modern medicine, instead of whiskey to dull the pain, why can't we be modern in our closures?

Sorry for the rant

ryan