What do you think of bullfighting?

[Ben]

My opinion is in the blog (http://www.notesfromspain.com/466/). What do you think?

[Brian]

As a foreigner, I first went to a bullfight in the Madrid Plaza de Toros (Las Ventas?). I was a college student at the time, and I don't remember being repulsed by the act. Now that I'm a bit older and more sensitive to animal rights and all that, I would say that it still doesn't bother me terribly, but at this point, I probably wouldn't be a regular attender.

But I do appreciate it for the artistry, the daring of the matador, the pure adrenaline rush of saying, "Uy! Casi!" when the bull almost tramples the matador, or worse.

That said, my wife haaaaates it, and refuses to entertain the thought of going, although she grew up 5 minutes from the Plaza de Toros de Valencia.

[richardksa]

Many years ago I read "Death in the afternoon" but really had little idea of the spectacle involved. Then a few months ago I watched it on Spanish TV and was totally enthralled. When the dispatch came it was delivered with such artistry and speed I almost missed it. A flash of the sword and the animal crumbled at the matador's feet. I began to realise what the afficionados see. But then the next fight was different. Either the animal was made of sterner stuff or the bullfighter not as skilled. The beast was stuck, gouged and tortured and eventually was killed by a blow to the head with a hammer. Not such a wonderful spectacle. As a non-Spaniard I am abivalent to the sport as it's not my concern. By the same token, as I have been known to hunt foxes with dogs, I wish that disapprovers would mind their own business.

[ValenciaSon]

I've seen bullfighting at the plaza de toros at Valencia and some small towns outside of Valencia. At the time I was a youth and found it boring and gross. It seemed like the bull really didn't have a chance. Once I realized how large the bulls really were, I was amazed at the courage taken by the matadores I've seen. I never got into it. Now my father can sit and watch it for hours, even on tv! I would imagine as compassion for animals becomes universal, that bullfighting days are numbered. Of course I can easily hear those state Nunca!

I did see a special occasion bullfight involving clowns and that was pretty funny. I wish more of that was common.

They say it has to be in your blood but grandfather in his youth was a bullfighter. Maybe it skips a generation or 3;)

[Enrique NYC]

It's both fascinating and repulsive. But I think its continued existence is a great thing: (speaking from the USA as someone who's live in Europe quite a bit) western culture is desensitized to the slaughter of animals for food. I'm not a vegetarian, but I think it's important to note that when one eats meat, it used to be alive, vigorously alive. The pageantry and formality of the Spanish bullfight illuminates the pleasure we derive from eating meat: putting the vitality of the living animal in the spotlight, and shaming the matador that does a lousy job of dispatching the animal with the skill and speed it deserves.

Suggestion for future podcast: go to some small town (Burgo de Osma maybe) for the matanza del cerdo in the autumn.

[Marbella]

I have only been once and to be quite honest I only lasted 4 bulls and I left because I found it boring. I wanted to enjoy it and I've watched it since on TV but the live event didn't grip me at all.

Before entering the plaza de toros I was so nervous that my legs were shaking. I just didn't know how I'd react to the spectacle that would unfold. However, I oddly and ashamedly felt no compassion for the bull; I didn't find it gory; I was amazed at the size and speed of the animal; I was equally amazed at the skill of the picadors and toreros.

It is inaccurate to call it a 'fight'. It is not a fight: the animal is so severely weakened by the time the torero gets hold of it, it has almost zero chance of 'winning'. But, anyone who thinks that the torero is anything but very very brave is totally misguided.

I'll go again one day I hope. I do think it is up to Spaniards if they want it to continue. I hope it does really, if only to stick two fingers up to the sanctimonious outsiders who shouldn't interfere in another country's culture.

Lorca described it neatly as a 'religious mystery' which seems about right to me. There is a minor classic I'd also recommend written by A.L. Kennedy called On Bullfighting.

[Alan]

Yes, but the meat we eat is (or should be) humanely slaughtered. The bulls spend the last few minutes of their lives in pain with swords sticking out of them. Needless to say, this is one part of Spain that I would be happy to consign to the history books.

But, I'm a foreigner and what would I know?

[Brian]

I would add that when I saw the bullfight in Madrid, the senior bullfighter was ripped from knee to chest with a rather wicked horn, so that the 2nd matador had to come back out to finish off the crafty beast. That wasn't so artistic, I must say.

On the other hand, I saw a bullfight in Valencia that was "rejoneo," where the matador was completely on horseback. It was very different, but I was incredibly amazed with their touch, artistry, and horsemanship.

[Rita Marley]

Yes, but the meat we eat is (or should be) humanely slaughtered. The bulls spend the last few minutes of their lives in pain with swords sticking out of them. Needless to say, this is one part of Spain that I would be happy to consign to the history books.

But, I'm a foreigner and what would I know?

Well Alan, I am a Spaniard and I agree with you...A part of my culture that I am not proud of..I have seen the attendance grow lower during the past two decades..Maybe, just maybe if there are no afficionados then there will be no more bullfights. I know it is my love for animals and my stand on animal rights that makes me so "obtuse" when it comes to bullfighting but then again, I have seen some really bad situations and too many fans who actually only attend for the "gory" moments. Again, just an opinion propelled by other believes...I trully hate it to the point where I miss the artistic parts of it and have no desire to explore.

Marie

[tpetross]

I had the opportunity to attend a bullfight when I lived in Mexico, and I'll have to say I was not impressed. The matador was apparently some sort of champion in Spain and was in Mexico exhibiting his "talents." I have a hard time respecting a man who knows how to subdue an already horribly defeated and injured animal (even though it is a bull). Sure, I eat meat which obviously came from a killed animal. But last I can remember, slaughter houses do not feature spectator seating nor do they tease the animal by prolonging the death process. Nor do they glorify and justify it in the name of "artistry."

While I will readily admit that it requires a certain level of bravery to do what they do, I have a difficult time describing them as talented. This is how I look at it: Is a man who knows how to play in traffic without getting hit somehow talented? And if this too is talent, should we not praise him for his abilities? I say no...but that's just me.

That being said, I also defend the right of people to make their own decisions. Call it natural selection, if you will. If a man is brave (and/or stupid) enough to climb into a ring with an angry bull and would like to take a chance on being mamed all in the name of "honor," more power to him. Similarly, if a person wishes to spend his time and money watching this same man play Russian roulette with his life, be my guest. It is not my life, my money, or my country.

Don't get me wrong, I love Spain, it's cutlure and it's people, but bullfighting is an abhorrible practice.

[Edith]

My opinion is in the blog (http://www.notesfromspain.com/466/). What do you think?

I'm sorry to say so and I hope this won't offend anyone, but to me it's absolutely repulsive... a medieval act of animal cruelty which shouldn't be tolerated in this day and age even though it's an old tradition. Sometimes, traditions simply have got to go and I truly hope this one will be abolished one day. I watched several bullfights on TVE and was left with a overwhelming feeling of disgust and sadness. Some people say it's an art form but how would we feel if someone poked a bunch of oversized satay skewers into our flesh just for the fun of it? And that's just for starters... in the end, the bull stands no chance. He dies, the matador doesn't. It's no game to the bull and certainly not an art form either. It may look like dancing to us but it's simply a bull fighting a lost battle against a man. What I see is an animal in distress. Sometimes, horses die too - they are gored to death by the bull. How can a true horse lover approve of this? :(

Goose-pulling has been outlawed in Europe and most of us do not approve of dancing bears in Greece and Turkey, either. Most of us get upset when we see footage of harp seal pups being clubbed to death by Canadian hunters. Dogfights and cockfights are now illegal in most Western countries. We love to support all kinds of animal charities, both at home and abroad. So why should people continue to tolerate or even enjoy bullfights? If bulls happened to look fluffy and cuddly we would probably be much more upset... people can be very irrational at times. The word 'tradition' often invokes an almost Pavlovian reaction: 'No, it's sacred! Don't touch it!'

However, I should add that the Spanish or the Mexicans are certainly not alone in this because animal cruelty can be found in many parts of the world - including other European countries. Think of the annual seal pup slaughter in Newfoundland, the dolphin massacres off the coasts of Iceland and Japan, and the wanton killing of migratory birds all over southern Europe each year. Animal cruelty in countries like China is legendary. Let's not forget, either, that millions of domestic animals are still suffering in our so-called factory farms.

So I don't want to single out Spain or Mexico as far as animal cruelty is concerned. Bullfights just happen to be more visible and are therefore more open to criticism...

[Brian]

So I don't want to single out Spain or Mexico as far as animal cruelty is concerned. Bullfights just happen to be more visible and are therefore more open to criticism...

Edith, you make excellent points all the way around, and you've very eloquently stated what most of the world thinks, so there's no need to apologize for your views. :)

It would be interesting to see what might happen if there were an attempt to outlaw bullfighting.

In the end, it's a very, very lucrative business, and I'm not certain that any politician wants to oppose that "sacred cow," if you'll pardon the pun.

[Edith]

Edith, you make excellent points all the way around, and you've very eloquently stated what most of the world thinks, so there's no need to apologize for your views. :)

It would be interesting to see what might happen if there were an attempt to outlaw bullfighting.

In the end, it's a very, very lucrative business, and I'm not certain that any politician wants to oppose that "sacred cow," if you'll pardon the pun.

:)

How very true! It's very lucrative, just like the tobacco industry, which is one of the reasons why these institutions have become such an integral part of society.

I don't know whether Spain has got an animal rights movement, or how active they are. In some other European countries, the radical fringe has antagonized many people by resorting to acts of violence, which is certainly not the best way to get your viewpoint across. Educating the public about animal cruelty would be a much better tactic, at least in my opinion. TV channels like Animal Planet are doing a great job in this respect by broadcasting shows about the RSPCA in the UK and the Humane Society in America. I don't know whether these programs can be seen in Spain.

Public support for banning bullfights seems to be strongest in Catalonia, at least that's what I've read. Perhaps Ben or Marina could tell us some more about this?

[Ben]

http://www.20minutos.es/data/img/2006/07/05/482367.jpg

"Desnudos contra los toros (http://www.20minutos.es/galeria/1204/0/0/)" - a timely protest in Pamplona today, just before the famous San Fermines. This naked protesting is certainly a good way of guarenteeing media attention!

An article (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/07/05/toros/1152115718.html) in El Mundo goes deeper than the photos above.

-Edith, to answer your question, I beleive that it is loosing popularity in Catalonia faster than anywhere else, but I have no figures I'm afraid...

[Edith]

http://www.20minutos.es/data/img/2006/07/05/482367.jpg

"Desnudos contra los toros (http://www.20minutos.es/galeria/1204/0/0/)" - a timely protest in Pamplona today, just before the famous San Fermines. This naked protesting is certainly a good way of guarenteeing media attention!

An article (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/07/05/toros/1152115718.html) in El Mundo goes deeper than the photos above.

-Edith, to answer your question, I beleive that it is loosing popularity in Catalonia faster than anywhere else, but I have no figures I'm afraid...

Ben, I saw the protests on TVE today! :) Thanks for the article.

[ValenciaSon]

It's these type of well thought out dialogues which are necessary in revealing all the critical points of an issue:rolleyes:

[Brian]

It's these type of well thought out dialogues which are necessary in revealing all the critical points of an issue:rolleyes:

¡Vivan las suecas! ;D

[Edith]

It's these type of well thought out dialogues which are necessary in revealing all the critical points of an issue:rolleyes:

;D

Y las rusas, a la derecha!

[ValenciaSon]

Ole!

[Jimmy]

There are some good bullfights - Those where the bull wins !!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

A small village (Cotabambas) in Peru holds what is called the Yawar Festival (o Festiva de Sangre).

Taking part are a bull and a condor, portraying the Spanish and Andean worlds, respectively.

Once the condor has been trapped, it is lashed to the bull's back, which the bird pecks at savagely in a bid to free itself. At the same time, the bull is released in the ring and surrounded by spontaneous bullfighters who fend off the animal with their ponchos. The bull, maddened with pain, leaps into the air trying to rid itself of the condor.

Finally, when the bull has been overcome -and it usually is- the condor is set free amidst music and general rejoicing. If the condor is badly wounded, or dies, it is taken as an omen for the village.

Nice stuff !!!!!!!! <--- (sorry I must highlight - this is standard Australian sarcasm here)

I say a fair fight is what is needed - the Bull enters the ring with it's god given weapons (horns) and the matador should enter likewise (naked, without a weapon) - see what happens then !!!!!!! :smug:

[Edith]

There are some good bullfights - Those where the bull wins !!!!!!!!!!!! :cool: A small village (Cotabambas) in Peru holds what is called the Yawar Festival (o Festiva de Sangre).

I've seen this festival on National Geographic Channel. A strange mix of pre-Columbian and Spanish traditions.

[ValenciaSon]

Maybe PETA should go and protest that one too :rolleyes:

[greytop]

Bullfighting does not appeal to me but I can see it has some merit as far as afficionados are concerned, and at least the bull finally dies.
What is more cruel to me is that most towns have "bulls in the streets" with a host of local variations. Most widely known is the bull running in Pamplona but many much smaller towns have their own versions.
Local variations round this part of Spain include "Bous en Mar" where they are chased down the street and into the sea. "Bous embolidas" where flaming brands or fireworks are attached to their horns to get them to run and many straight runs through and round the plazas & streets. A few people show some bravery and skill by facing the bulls in the street but most are half drunk and hide behind metal cages to aim kicks at them.
One good thing - every year a few people get seriously damaged! This is raising the manadatory safety precautions and insurance costs so much that some places have already stopped the practice.
I think the attitude of a lot of Spaniards is changing towards these types of event, but too stiff an opposition may only serve to harden the attitude of the others. There are so many other widespread cruelty issues that this one may just have to die a natural death.

Remember - don´t leave your pet in a car in the sun now that summer is here in the northern hemisphere! Come to think of it, your granny either.

[Brian]

One good thing - every year a few people get seriously damaged!

Usually drunk Americans.

[Edith]

Local variations round this part of Spain include "Bous en Mar" where they are chased down the street and into the sea. "Bous embolidas" where flaming brands or fireworks are attached to their horns to get them to run and many straight runs through and round the plazas & streets. There are so many other widespread cruelty issues that this one may just have to die a natural death.

Mind-boggling, isn't it? But, like I said, things like this happen elsewhere as well, albeit in a different form. Ironically, the very same people who indulge in these cruelties have probably got dogs and cats at home which are pampered and loved. :eek:

[gary]

My opinion is in the blog (http://www.notesfromspain.com/466/). What do you think?

Not part of my culture so hard to judge - imagine the outcry if you banned the ripping of a creature from its natural habitat by spearing it in the mouth and yanking it skyward - 13 million brits do it every weekend.

[Brian]

Not part of my culture so hard to judge - imagine the outcry if you banned the ripping of a creature from its natural habitat by spearing it in the mouth and yanking it skyward - 13 million brits do it every weekend.

Fair enough.

I take it that you're talking of fishing, right?

[Brian]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/07/spain.bulls.ap/index.html

There you go. Bulls have a go at a bunch of folks, injuring 6, who for the most part, are not Spanish.

[Edith]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/07/spain.bulls.ap/index.html

There you go. Bulls have a go at a bunch of folks, injuring 6, who for the most part, are not Spanish.

Hemingway fans!

[gary]

I take it that you're talking of fishing, right?
Yup - if you want to ban bull fighting and fox hunting you surely have to ban fishing as a barbaric sport

I am merely making a point, I am not an animal rights activist but those in the UK who are miss this entirely. I have never seen pickets at a commercial fishing pond, where the fish are transported in to a private stretch of water to be repeatedly hooked out to provide a lesure passtime for paying guests.

Guess tortuuring fish is acceptable

[Edith]

Guess tortuuring fish is acceptable

I see what you mean, but we don't know for sure whether fish are capable of feeling pain or not... mammals certainly do feel physical pain. Biologists agree mammals have got a highly evolved nervous system which enables them to feel pain and to go through emotions such as anxiety, panic, stress, etc.

In the old days, Inuit (Eskimos) would never hunt or fish for fun - until recently, hunting and fishing was part of their survival strategy and it would never occur to them to harm animals for the mere fun of it. I'm not saying an Inuit whale hunt is a pretty sight, because it isn't. But they hunt these animals so their families won't starve, which is a legitimate pursuit. In the past, they even prayed to the animals they killed in order to reconcile their spirits - a true form of respect in their culture. They actually asked the animal for forgiveness!

Although I don't want to idealize tribal peoples I feel that we in the West have lost this special connection to animals and to nature in general. We believe we are entitled to treat them as we see fit with no concern whatsoever for the animal's welfare - as if they were playthings.

St. Francis of Assisi was one of the very few people within the Judeo-Christian tradition who believed animals were entitled to decent treatment. He was a maverick in his day and age. IMO, you don't have to become a vegetarian to endorse these views - eating meat has been an integral part of human evolution and even chimps do it, but it's the deliberate torture of animals which I object to. I also mentioned modern factory farms where animal welfare is totally subjected to profit-making, so it's not only about bullfights and certainly not about Spain-bashing*. This raises a few important questions. For instance, where is our compassion? And why do we treat our beloved pets so differently?

*I realize this thread may be a bit disconcerting to Marina because it's about one of her county's oldest traditions. Marina, I hope you don't feel offended by all this, which is why I would like to extend the discussion to animal cruelty in general. It's not only about Spain.

[gary]

I see what you mean, but we don't know for sure whether fish are capable of feeling pain or not... mammals certainly do feel physical pain. Biologists agree mammals have got a highly evolved nervous system which enables them to feel pain and to go through emotions such as anxiety, panic, stress, etc.


Can't se how its ok to torture an animal 'cos you think it might not hurt. As I said I'm not an animal rights freak, but I reckon if you took a goldfish out of the bowl and stuck a pin in it the fish would jump about a bit - and as for emotion fish out of water do seem to get a bit panicky.......

[Edith]

Can't se how its ok to torture an animal 'cos you think it might not hurt. As I said I'm not an animal rights freak, but I reckon if you took a goldfish out of the bowl and stuck a pin in it the fish would jump about a bit - and as for emotion fish out of water do seem to get a bit panicky.......

Gary, I don't think you got my point... IMO, it's not OK to torture any kind of animal for the mere fun of it. Nowadays TV cooks tell you to put your lobsters into the freezer before putting them into boiling water because this will kill or at least sedate them.

[gary]

Gary, I don't think you got my point... IMO, it's not OK to torture any kind of animal for the mere fun of it. Nowadays TV cooks tell you to put your lobsters into the freezer before putting them into boiling water because this will kill or at least sedate them.
....and my point is that corse fishing is just for the fun not for the food - we dont eat perch, tench, gudgeon - in fact gudgeon are caught merely to use as live pait to catch pike. This is in line with bull fighting and ,to a certain extent fox hunting.

I have no problem with the fish on spanish market stalls flipping about - they are food

[Edith]

....and my point is that course fishing is just for the fun not for the food - we dont eat perch, tench, gudgeon - in fact gudgeon are caught merely to use as live pait to catch pike. This is in line with bull fighting and ,to a certain extent fox hunting.

True.

[gary]

*I realize this thread may be a bit disconcerting to Marina because it's about one of her county's oldest traditions. Marina, I hope you don't feel offended by all this, which is why I would like to extend the discussion to animal cruelty in general. It's not only about Spain.
I have never seen a bullfight and Im not in a hurry to do so, I dont much care for pulpo and definitely dont eat orejas de cerdo (though I have tried both) - my point has been that these are not in my culture and I dont feel compelled to judge or make a statement.

live and let live - have you seen picalili?- my friends from the south of england refuse to eat it because is dayglo yellow - we love it - similarly dandelion and burdock, mushy peas and black pudding (not all on the same plate!) - and I cant face jellied eels but my london pal loves them.

[gary]

in all this no one ever mentions the horses involved in bullfights, are they blindfolded?

[Edith]

my point has been that these are not in my culture and I dont feel compelled to judge or make a statement.


If people aren't allowed to judge other cultures, they might as well cancel their membership of Amnesty International or Greenpeace. :rolleyes: Most NGOs, like Save the Children for instance, would also cease to exist.

What people eat is a whole different matter - the reason why some people don't eat escargots or eel is just because they find them distasteful! :D If someone else wants to eat them, fine! This is not about ethics at all. Animal cruelty is.

[Edith]

in all this no one ever mentions the horses involved in bullfights, are they blindfolded?

I mentioned it in one of the earlier posts.

Oh boy, this thread has opened a can of worms... :-)

[Ben]

in all this no one ever mentions the horses involved in bullfights, are they blindfolded?
yes, so they don't get alarmed when they see a horse charging towards them. They also wear heaving padding to protect them from the bull's horns - this wasn't originally the case, and earlier in the last century the horses were gored to death (guts ripped out by the horn) in every fight...

[Brian]

I have no problem with the fish on spanish market stalls flipping about - they are food

My understanding is that the bulls killed in the corrida are sold as food, too.

</devilsadvocate>

[Marbella]

*I realize this thread may be a bit disconcerting to Marina because it's about one of her county's oldest traditions. Marina, I hope you don't feel offended by all this, which is why I would like to extend the discussion to animal cruelty in general. It's not only about Spain.

Are you really worried about upsetting only Marina? You've got a valid opinion on one of the most controversial aspects of Spanish society, why apologise for it to one person?

It's not necessary to expand the discussion to all animal cruelty to spare people's feelings is it?:confused:

[ValenciaSon]

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/wl/070606sanfermin/im:/060707/481/8ed6f3f4b3064733986aa58e76fb65c7;_ylt=AiZnGcYHXRab r0P9F.CkLPDlWMcF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5bGcyMWMzBHNlYwNzc25h dg--

[gary]

If people aren't allowed to judge other cultures, they might as well cancel their membership of Amnesty International or Greenpeace

I only said that I didnt feel the need to comment, I wasnt precluding anyone else from doing as they will, same policy as I have with fishing, and fox hunting... and I am not a member of Greenpeace or Amnesty International...

[Marbella]

Gary makes a good point about fishing but I need to go further. There are some genuine animal rights activists who are to be admired but it always amuses me how 99% (it seems) of those who claim to be pro animal rights conveniently forget their high morals when it comes to food and clothing.

Anyone who thinks that the nice slab of juicy steak on your plate comes from an animal who lived its short life in spacious green fields and died peacefully and painlessly is living in cloud-cuckoo-land. Or they are vegetarians because they couldn't bear to eat another creature and yet stand there telling you that while wearing a nice pair of shiny leather shoes! It's hilarious:D .

In Britain, can you believe that the most pressing issue facing Tony Blair a couple of years ago, with all the problems that this country faces, was to ban fox-hunting! Can you imagine the cost to the tax-payer to put an unworkable ban in place? Wouldn't it have been better to spend that time and money tackling child-poverty in the UK or Africa? Oh, I suppose a snotty-nosed kid from some desperate council estate isn't as attractive as a lickle furry fox.

To get back to bullfighting, a fighting bull will be at least 4 years old before it is killed in the ring. Before that it would have led a relatively luxurious life as the fighting bull is revered and treasured by the breeders. It's a weak argument for the continuation of an obviously cruel practice but let's get a sense of balance here.

[ValenciaSon]

Maybe some vegetarians don't eat meat because they hate plants:rolleyes:

[Brian]

Maybe some vegetarians don't eat meat because they hate plants:rolleyes:

Raízists!

(dual language pun there).

;D

[intrepida1981]

Public support for banning bullfights seems to be strongest in Catalonia, at least that's what I've read. Perhaps Ben or Marina could tell us some more about this?

Hi!! First of all, I'm a Spaniard and most people I know find the bullfighting as a disgusting thing.

I was told that City Council of Girona (city in the North of Catalonia, Spain) had already banned it. :)

I have never attended to a bullring (because my father didn't like them) but I remenber when I was a little girl and I was watching bullfightings on TV. And I didn't know what that was, and what most shocked me was to become aware that the blood which slid through the bulls’ back and reached to the sand surface was actually REAL BLOOD and no red paint :painter:, as I thought it was at first :eek: . Anyway and despite this shock I do understand people who like to watch it, although I also understand that this kind of practise can’t have a place in today’s world. :naughty:

[Brian]

Hi!! First of all, I'm a Spaniard and most people I know find the bullfighting as a disgusting thing.

I was told that City Council of Girona (city in the North of Catalonia, Spain) had already banned it. :)

I have never attended to a bullring (because my father didn't like them) but I remenber when I was a little girl and I was watching bullfightings on TV. And I didn't know what that was, and what most shocked me was to become aware that the blood which slid through the bulls’ back and reached to the sand surface was actually REAL BLOOD and no red paint :painter:, as I thought it was at first :eek: . Anyway and despite this shock I do understand people who like to watch it, although I also understand that this kind of practise can’t have a place in today’s world. :naughty:

I wonder if the spectacle is having less and less of an influence in Spanish culture, perhaps even becoming less relevant. Perhaps in our lifetime, it will have less and less influence, becoming more iconic rather than relevant. Certainly, if the younger generation stops attending, the industry will fold.

[Jimmy]

Hey, everyone --- I'm selling my friend's digital camera. He is in the hospital now & will probably be there for awhile. He needs the money to pay for medical bills. This is a great camera. Linked below is the last picture he took with it, just to show you the quality. Let me know if you are interested in it.

99

[intrepida1981]

Hey, everyone --- I'm selling my friend's digital camera. He is in the hospital now & will probably be there for awhile. He needs the money to pay for medical bills. This is a great camera. Linked below is the last picture he took with it, just to show you the quality. Let me know if you are interested in it.

99

What a impressive picture!!! :eek: :eek:

I've overheard there were several seriously injured runners during the first day of encierro in Pamplona. Sad that your friend was among them. :(

[Brian]

The American who was injured during the vaquillas is in very critical condition, and is apparently paralyzed. His friends and family have already set up a blog to report on his ongoing condition.

Link (http://www.pray4ray.com)

[Bolboreta]

I wonder if the spectacle is having less and less of an influence in Spanish culture, perhaps even becoming less relevant.
Well, sometimes I think there are more turists watching it than natives! I dunno, I don't think it's ever been popular where I live (in Galicia). Sure, we have a couple of Plazas de Toros scattered around, but I don't know anybody who likes it (and I'm including older folks who usually have more chances of being fans) and it's not part of our traditional parties either (Where my dad's from they all have toros during the "fiestas", we don't).

There are still people who like to watch it and defend it, but most young people are against it, and the ones who defend it are usually related to the market in some way or another (let's face it, it's a business).

Personally, the only thing I like are the "pasodobles taurinos" (the music) but you can listen to them (or play them, in my case) without watching bullfights, so I couldn't care less if they got rid of the fights. I'm not about to start campaigning against them though, I'm not extremely concerned about animal rights, and the only thing that really bothers me about the Toros is that they are a stereotype of a culture I'm only related to by association.

[Marbella]

Hey, everyone --- I'm selling my friend's digital camera. He is in the hospital now & will probably be there for awhile. He needs the money to pay for medical bills. This is a great camera. Linked below is the last picture he took with it, just to show you the quality. Let me know if you are interested in it.

99

There should be a voting system on this site for the funniest post of the week. This would get my vote!

[celia s]

I have just watched the following video and have decided that I will not be going to any bullfights in Madrid.

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000423

I think I am now in favour of bloodless bullfighting , as practised in Portugal.

[Marbella]

Do all people who regularly go to bullfights also naturally enjoy abusing animals in small town fiestas? Went I went to a bullfight I didn't get a sense that the aficionados were there only because they like to see the bull tortured and killed, there's far more to it than that. There are daily sections in most national newspapers devoted to toros and toreros themselves are regularly featured on the TV and in magazines - this isn't some wanton act of violence in a hill-billy town somewhere in Spain.

[Marina]

*I realize this thread may be a bit disconcerting to Marina because it's about one of her county's oldest traditions. Marina, I hope you don't feel offended by all this, which is why I would like to extend the discussion to animal cruelty in general. It's not only about Spain.

Don't worry Edith you are not ofending me at all, if I haven't written before is because I've been away not because I'm ofendend.

To tell you the truth I hate the corridas de toros it makes me suffering to see the bull sufering like that, plus I don't understand the art around it, I'm not saying that it does not exist I just don't get it. I've only been to a full corrida once when I was small (5 or 6) with my uncle (my parents don't like it) and to tell you the truth I don't remember much about it and when it is on the telly I inmediately change channel as I'm not interested at all. However I've been to the vaquilla in Galapagar many times when I was a teenager during the summer festivals. We used to go out all night and then at 7 or 8 o'clock we would go into the bull ring, where they would release one or two small vaquillas and people would run in front of it to get to the center of the ring where they would get a free chupito from a stall. Meanwhile I would sit with my female friends to see the boys running - how could I do it??? I don't know.


It is true that these days I think there are less people that enjoy bullfighting but still I think the people that like it are real fans and I know young people that like it, and I would say that they like because of the art of the torero not because of the cruelty. Maybe I can find someone to interview in these subject that seems to be so interesting for everyone.

However I have to say that bullrings are really interesting constructions and they are great places to go to a concert if you ever have the oportunity, its circular shape makes them much more secluded than stadiums. Well I'm refering to fixed bull rings, in small villages usually they use "folding" ones which are crap:D. Recently I saw a portion of one standing next to the road and in white letters it said "Plaza de toros for sale" I thought it would made a great picture but it was imposible to stop anywhere safetly.

One last thing. Ben once went to a stag do of one of my friend's boyfriend that started with a "capea" (= held in a small bullring usually in a private land where you can play with "small" - or not that small- vaquillas. If any, only humans get hurt). Ben said to me before leaving, don't worry I will stay in the seats... but after a few drinks all of my friends' boyfriends were calling him Heminway. So I don't know very well what happend there.:rolleyes:

[Ben]

http://www.20minutos.es/data/img/2006/07/11/490020.jpg

Fun with cows in Denia, Alicante. (Pic from 20minutos.com) One side of the town square is open to the sea, and have-a-go matadors try to lure the animals into the sea.

'Bous a la mar'. Una vaquilla se lanza al agua persiguiendo a un joven en el recinto de la Plaza Cuadrada donde se celebran los tradicionales Toros a la mar de Denia (Alicante). Esta fiesta se celebra en una semi-plaza de toros abierta a las aguas del puerto, en la que las vaquillas salen de una en una y los toreros improvisados las van acercando al agua hasta que caen, o se tiran.

[Edith]

Don't worry Edith you are not ofending me at all, if I haven't written before is because I've been away not because I'm ofendend.

Ah Marina, you really made my day! :) I felt so awful because I know that my writing style can be quite passionate at times, especially when a subject 'gets to me', so to speak. It's just the way I write. Perhaps I've got a little bit of Mediterranean in me too, LOL Anyway, I 'suspected' you would be against bullfights too but I didn't want to come across as a Spain-basher because this would be very unjust. Like I said before, animal cruelty exists in other countries as well and often it's hidden from the public (think of factory farms).

However I have to say that bullrings are really interesting constructions and they are great places to go to a concert if you ever have the oportunity, its circular shape makes them much more secluded than stadiums.

I'd love to! After all, they are like Roman theaters. Before I was born, my parents went to an opera in an old Roman amphiteater in Verona (Italy) and they said the acoustics were just great.


One last thing. Ben once went to a stag do of one of my friend's boyfriend that started with a "capea" (= held in a small bullring usually in a private land where you can play with "small" - or not that small- vaquillas. If any, only humans get hurt). Ben said to me before leaving, don't worry I will stay in the seats... but after a few drinks all of my friends' boyfriends were calling him Heminway. So I don't know very well what happend there.:rolleyes:

You probably wouldn;t want to know, either! ;D ;)

[Espanolero]

Unbelievable that this should even be up for debate. Let me answer your question with another question: What do you think of bear-baiting?

That there is a nation (the spaniards) that bases its identity upon animal cruelty is beyond me.

Marbella: When you spaniards torment animals for entertainment it is NOT your business. It's anyone's business. Animals are not your toys. You are a pathetic nation and it makes perfect sense to me when they say that bull-torture symbolizes the spanish character; we all saw how you went to Iraq and as soon as they hit back you fled (seems like tormenting defenceless animals is the only thing you're really good at). It's truly disgusting to see how spaniards defend their tradition of bull-torture when they should lower their heads in shame. But I guess that's too much to expect from savages. After all.. hay que ser sádico para entender el sadismo. As for bull-torture being an "art" or a "mystery".. well, maybe in the sick mind of spaniards it is. To me it is nothing but a bunch of spanish guys dressed up in silly clothes tormenting a confused animal infront of screaming spanish men, women and children.

Malditos salvajes.

[Espanolero]

Do all people who regularly go to bullfights also naturally enjoy abusing animals in small town fiestas? Went I went to a bullfight I didn't get a sense that the aficionados were there only because they like to see the bull tortured and killed, there's far more to it than that.
If the sight of a spanish moron in tights strutting around turns you on, then you can do it without hurting animals in the process. Maybe you could offer your own bodies to the matador (I know I would come and watch!), because I don't think the bulls enjoy it as much as you do.

There are daily sections in most national newspapers devoted to toros and toreros themselves are regularly featured on the TV and in magazines - this isn't some wanton act of violence in a hill-billy town somewhere in Spain.
You're right. These are indeed not isolated events. This is animal cruelty on a national level. Not only do ordinary spaniards enjoy it, but it is also sanctioned by the spanish king & his mother, and many spanish politicians like it too.

What a disgusting people.

[Espanolero]

Like I said before, animal cruelty exists in other countries as well and often it's hidden from the public (think of factory farms).
The key words here are 'hidden from the public'.

In spain it is considered "art" and "entertainment".

BTW, I'm a proud spain-basher. A people that torments animals for fun deserves to be bashed. In fact, it is our duty to bash them.. such a people does not deserve the least of respect.

[Espanolero]

...

[Marina]

Hi Espanolero,

I think you are getting things a little bit mixed up here.
There are LOTS of Spaniards that don't relate AT ALLl with bullfighting, therefore saying that Spain bases its identity upon animal cruelty would as if I call you a killer because your neighbour is one, i.e not fair.

I also think that you don't have a clue of the reasons why the Spanish army left Irak and that was because that was what the majority of its population always wanted it had nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned.

[gary]

BTW, I'm a proud spain-basher.......

This being the case this forum is probably not the place for you...

[Edith]

What a disgusting people.

I don't know where you are from, but how would you feel if someone would make such sweeping statements about your country? It's like this mindless America-bashing which some people love to engage in just because they do not like certain things about America. As if all Americans would agree on politics and social issues... tarring an entire nation with the same brush is so unjust, it almost amounts to racism. Ignorance breeds hatred!

[Espanolero]

Hi Espanolero,

I think you are getting things a little bit mixed up here.
There are LOTS of Spaniards that don't relate AT ALLl with bullfighting,
It has enough support to continue, and that speaks volumes of your society. "Not relating" to it is not enough. Where are the demonstrations? Where are the protests? Where is the rage? All I see is spaniards telling "ignorant" foreigners to "mind their own business". Seems that not only are you cruel towards animals but you're also arrogant. It is all too clear that most spaniards accept the bull-torture.. I mean, only the fact that it is broadcasted on your major TV-channels speaks volumes about your attitudes. I can't believe it is broadcasted on spanish TV as if it was some sort of a football game!

therefore saying that Spain bases its identity upon animal cruelty would as if I call you a killer because your neighbour is one, i.e not fair.
There is no way to deny this: bull-torture is the greatest symbol of spain. And this is just the tip of an iceberg, let's not forget about the so-called "fiestas". You DO base your national identity upon this, otherwise you wouldn't be so reluctant to give it up. A great example of this were the spanish fans in the World Cup. Remember what kind of flags they were waving? And your king is a passionate "aficionado" who loves watching bull-torture - just like millions of other spaniards.

I also think that you don't have a clue of the reasons why the Spanish army left Irak and that was because that was what the majority of its population always wanted it had nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned.
Really? Then why did millions of spaniards take out to the streets only AFTER the arabs had retaliated for their involvement in Iraq? Can't say I was surprised though.. being used to dressing up like clowns and facing defenceless bulls you thought that you could go to war without meeting any resistance. You left Iraq because you met resistance, not because you were against the war. (I'm not saying that you weren't against it, I'm just saying that this wasn't the reason why you left.)

Flag used by spanish fans during the World Cup:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/e/es!bull2.gif (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/e/es%21bull2.gif)

How interesting.. a people that uses its victims as its national symbol. I mean, instead of being ashamed of your savagery you're flashing it!

[Espanolero]

This being the case this forum is probably not the place for you...

Why not? You think I should take my complaints to some other people? Like joining a Bulgarian forum, for example, and asking them why the spaniards torment bulls?

how would you feel if someone would make such sweeping statements about your country?

If they were justified, like in this case, I hope I would feel all right about it.

[Ben]

Ay ay ay Sn. Espanolero, I hardly have the energy or ganas to reply to some of your gross miscinceptions about Spain, but here goes:

It has enough support to continue, and that speaks volumes of your society. "Not relating" to it is not enough. Where are the demonstrations? Where are the protests? Where is the rage?
Plenty of demonstrations (http://www.20minutos.es/galeria/1204/0/6/) by Spaniards last week, in Pamplona and Madrid.

All I see is spaniards telling "ignorant" foreigners to "mind their own business". Seems that not only are you cruel towards animals but you're also arrogant. It is all too clear that most spaniards accept the bull-torture.. I mean, only the fact that it is broadcasted on your major TV-channels speaks volumes about your attitudes. I can't believe it is broadcasted on your TV as if it was some sort of football game!
Got any viewing figures? Just because it is broadcst does not make it popular. They boradcast ballroom dancing in the UK (which is almost as painful to watch ;)) but it doesn't mean everyone will watch it.



There is no way in denying this: bull-torture is the greatest symbol of spain.
I deny it. How about siestas, sangria, food, Rioja, sunny beaches full of holiday makers? I once asked people (http://www.notesfromspain.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156&highlight=things+head) in this forum about the first thing that came to mind when they thought of Spain, and none of them mentioned bullfighting.


Really? Then why did millions of spaniards take out to the streets only AFTER the arabs had retaliated for their involvement in Iraq?
Wrong, people took to the streets before, during and afterwards. Get your facts straight if you can before posting.


You left Iraq because you met resistance, not because you were against the war. (I'm not saying that you weren't against it, I'm just saying that this wasn't the reason why you left.)
Wrong, Spain left Iraq because of a pre-election promise by a socialist government that never expected to win. When they won they did the honorable thing, kept their promise, and left Iraq.

We get the message, you don't like bullfighting, and as a result you don't like Spain (you don't understand it very well either). With any luck you have little or nothing more to add on the matter ;)

[greytop]

Well summed up Ben
Many of us agree with Espanolero's sentiment - even if somewhat fed up with his fervour. Anyone who wants to can read his "homepage" from his profile http://www.bullfightingfree.org/
which is a League against Cruel Sports site and conveys the message in an informative manner.
In there they say that the "sport" is losing afficionados as the older generation die off and are not replaced by los jovenes. Tourists can speed up this process by boycotting such events. (last weekend 10,000 people turned out in Denía for bulls running into the sea, many being tourists)
I suspect many tourists go only once "to see for themselves" rather than rely on the opinions of other people. IMHO their negative opinion and telling their friends how nasty it all is could even speed up its demise. I only ever went once to our local "bulls in the streets" as I was not impressed.

If you have broadband
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4925569611637595712&q=earthlings
for a (good, I think) video on animal and people exploitation/coexistence.

[Espanolero]

Plenty of demonstrations (http://www.20minutos.es/galeria/1204/0/6/) by Spaniards last week, in Pamplona and Madrid.
Come on, who are you trying to fool? You call those "demonstrations"? Out of a nation of 40 million people ten sluts or so use the bull-torture as an excuse for showing their breasts in public.. and you call that a demonstration? Millions of spaniards support bull-torture and millions of others are indifferent. Period. No wishful thinking of yours can change this fact. You can either condemn them or you can pretend that they are a nice people.

Got any viewing figures? Just because it is broadcst does not make it popular. They boradcast ballroom dancing in the UK (which is almost as painful to watch ;)) but it doesn't mean everyone will watch it.
No. But I'm sure many spaniards watch it, otherwise they wouldn't broadcast it. Whatever the case, it's irrelevant. It's not enough to change the channel if your national TV shows you a bunch of clowns torturing animals to death for fun. Of course, if it's part of a people's culture - as happens to be the case with the spaniards - they won't protest. And this explains why most spaniards remain silent: animal cruelty is part of their culture. Denying this is to deny the obvious.

Wrong, people took to the streets before, during and afterwards.
If I'm not mistaken the number of the spaniards who took to the streets before the attacks were shrinkingly small compared to the hordes of matadores and matadoras who ran to the streets thereafter.

Wrong, Spain left Iraq because of a pre-election promise by a socialist government that never expected to win. When they won they did the honorable thing, kept their promise, and left Iraq.
And guess why they won?

[Espanolero]

Anyone who wants to can read his "homepage" from his profile

It's not my homepage.. I just provided the URL for a pic that is located on it.

[Ben]

Come on, who are you trying to fool? You call those "demonstrations"? Out of a nation of 40 million people ten sluts or so use the bull-torture as an excuse for showing their breasts in public..

and you call that a demonstration? If I'm not mistaken the number of the spaniards who took to the streets before the attacks were shrinkingly small compared to the hordes of matadores and matadoras who ran to the streets thereafter.
Calling well-meaning demonstrators sluts and the hordes or shocked Spaniards 'matadores' may be construed as some as a violation of the rules you signed when you registered for the forum, which stated in part that:

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
You have posted 10 agressive and often rude messages about bullfighting, Spain and the Spanish today, and been very agressive to other fourm members who are just sharing their opinion. As I said, we get the message, please spare us from 10 more (or even 2 more) of your posts... I for one will just ignore them (or if they get any ruder, ban you ;) )
- The management

[gary]

Why not? You think I should take my complaints to some other people? Like joining a Bulgarian forum, for example, and asking them why the spaniards torment bulls?
.

In your obvious rage you may not have noticed but most of the people on this forum are not, infact, Spanish. Almost without exception, including those that are Spanish, people have agreed with the basic sweep of your argument, My suggestion is that rather than harrangue and irritate people that are broadly in agreement with you your time might be spent hanging out on a pro bulfighting forum, which this is not.

The people here are in love with Spain as a country for all the reasons Ben mentioned and more - If you love the UK it doesnt mean you love fox hunting, cock fighting, dog fighting, badger baiting, all of which go on, admittedly with the exception of fox hunting they are all clandestine.

The people on this forum are clever, fiunny and personable. If you have difficulty relating to this then - we heard you, now move on. If you are okay then welcome - I look forward to reading your less aggressive, less obsessive posts

[Ben]

In your obvious rage you may not have noticed but most of the people on this forum are not, infact, Spanish. Almost without exception, including those that are Spanish, people have agreed with the basic sweep of your argument, My suggestion is that rather than harrangue and irritate people that are broadly in agreement with you your time might be spent hanging out on a pro bulfighting forum, which this is not.

The people here are in love with Spain as a country for all the reasons Ben mentioned and more - If you love the UK it doesnt mean you love fox hunting, cock fighting, dog fighting, badger baiting, all of which go on, admittedly with the exception of fox hunting they are all clandestine.

The people on this forum are clever, fiunny and personable. If you have difficulty relating to this then - we heard you, now move on. If you are okay then welcome - I look forward to reading your less aggressive, less obsessive posts
Very well put.

[Rita Marley]

Spanolero, I empathize with your objections to hurting and killing animals for 'sport' or entertainment. I am not nor I have ever been even a little bit tolerant of the bullfights. As much as I would love to see it banned, I also don't think any one of us has sufficient moral high ground to advocate banning an aspect of a culture that is not your own.
What you so freely spout (thanks to technology, Ben & Marina) is frighteningly similar to George W. Bush in his efforts to export supposedly American values to Iraq: Do it my way or I'll send in the troops. Just because I don't agree, like or even support President Bush, I don't hate Americans. I do not generalize. You should try it sometime.
Whether you and I may like or dissaprove of bullfighting is not relevant. We are just not that important. We Spaniards will manage the evolution of our own culture quite well without yours our anyones dictates.
You are indeed very lucky if only a few things can get you this angry, there are so many that make me angry, and that includes people who are self-righteous like you.

I personally find bullfighting brutal, unnecessary, and it is something that I do not support in anyway. Yes, I would like it to stop; however, to say that it should be banned from Spanish culture is taking this issue a bit too far. Let Spaniards decide what they want to ban from their culture, let them decide what they want to keep as well.
Also, I have noticed that several times used the word "salvaje" . Does it imply that ALL Spaniards are salvajes? Or maybe the ones who support bullfighting are?
"Barbaric or Savage" , what a pair of interesting words!
Drive by shooting is barbaric, the number of teenagers who get shot on the streets every year is barbaric, the number of women and kids who die because of domestic violence is barbaric, football fans getting drunk and violent after each football match is barbaric, street kids can be barbaric, some countries being allowed to bomb another country just because they can is, in deed, barbaric.
How is deer shooting less barbaric? Because it is a clean shot? How is fox hunting less barbaric? Because is royal?
So, bullfighting might be barbaric, but before we tell anyone to ban anything from their culture, take a look at your own culture and see how "well" you are doing.
I do not support bullfighting in anyway, but to tell Spaniards what to ban from their culture is totally out of order. To hate a whole nation because of one aspect of their past that continues on into the present is absurd. I think it is about time we wake up and stop trying to fix other cultures, specially when everyone else's is so far away from being perfect.
You call us cowards and savages...I think of you as narrow minded, intolerant, ridiculous and most of all opportunistic. You took advantage of this board to spew your hate for Spaniards. You must be so proud. At least I have taken real life stands for what I do believe in so passionately.

[simonb]

When the long running saga of fox hunting in the UK was active, it was debated many, many times in Houses of Parliament. To stage that the cynics amongst us thought that whenever there was any government challenging topic floating around, fox hunting was debated instead.

Have any of the major parties in Spain actual raised anti bull-fighting sentiments? Has it got anywhere near becoming a debate or a part of any party's manisfesto?

As you all probably know, fox hunting is now illegal in England and Wales (you'll have to help me out with Scotland) but the debate still rages on and fox hunting still takes place in one fashion or another.

[greytop]

Have any of the major parties in Spain actual raised anti bull-fighting sentiments? Has it got anywhere near becoming a debate or a part of any party's manisfesto?

Someone's trying

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2239827,00.html

[Espanolero]

Spanolero, I empathize with your objections to hurting and killing animals for 'sport' or entertainment. I am not nor I have ever been even a little bit tolerant of the bullfights. As much as I would love to see it banned, I also don't think any one of us has sufficient moral high ground to advocate banning an aspect of a culture that is not your own.
Wrong, spaniard, I have the right to demand that you stop tormenting animals. The fact that this is a great part of your culture only makes it worse. And you DO tolerate bull-torture, otherwise you wouldn't be against banning it. So typical spaniards: "I'm against it but I don't think we should ban it". Obviously you are NOT against animal cruelty, since you advocate its continuation.. all in the name of "culture". Well, if you openly admit that this is part of your culture then don't be surprised when I say that your culture is DISGUSTING.

What you so freely spout (thanks to technology, Ben & Marina) is frighteningly similar to George W. Bush in his efforts to export supposedly American values to Iraq: Do it my way or I'll send in the troops.
As a spaniard you are in no position to critisize the USA. We all know what you did to the Native Americans and we all saw how you went to Iraq together with the Americans.

Just because I don't agree, like or even support President Bush, I don't hate Americans. I do not generalize. You should try it sometime.
"Do not generalize", says the person that confirms everything I say. You are defending animal cruelty in the name of culture and tradition. Can't say I expect anything else from a spaniard, though.

Whether you and I may like or dissaprove of bullfighting is not relevant. We are just not that important.
But obviously the "right" to torment bulls is very important to the spaniards; so important that even its alleged "opponents" (such as yourself) support it. And you ARE supporting it by saying that it should not be banned.

We Spaniards will manage the evolution of our own culture quite well without yours our anyones dictates.
It seems that you need more people dictating to you about this, as you refuse to stop tormenting animals for fun.

You are indeed very lucky if only a few things can get you this angry, there are so many that make me angry, and that includes people who are self-righteous like you.
Here we go again, an arrogant spaniard calling people "self-righteous" because they are disgusted by the fact that you torment bulls for fun. I got news for you: it is you spaniards who are self-righteous. You are arrogant and you have a poor culture of which there wouldn't be much left if you abolished the part that involves cruelty towards animals. And this is the reason why you REFUSE to ban it.

I personally find bullfighting brutal, unnecessary, and it is something that I do not support in anyway. Yes, I would like it to stop; however, to say that it should be banned from Spanish culture is taking this issue a bit too far. Let Spaniards decide what they want to ban from their culture, let them decide what they want to keep as well.
First of all, you DO support bull-torture. By saying that you don't want it to be banned you are saying that it should be allowed to continue, and this is supporting it.

Second, it is not up to the spaniards to decide whether they shall torment animals or not. Animals are not your toys. You have no right to torment them for your own amusement.

Also, I have noticed that several times used the word "salvaje" . Does it imply that ALL Spaniards are salvajes? Or maybe the ones who support bullfighting are?
I think I have made it clear to everyone what I think about you. You are indeed savages. What else can one call a people that torments bulls for fun and calls it "art"? I don't know what's worse: the fact that millions of spaniards enjoy this or that millions of other spaniards claim to be against it while saying that it should not be banned!

"Barbaric or Savage" , what a pair of interesting words!
Drive by shooting is barbaric, the number of teenagers who get shot on the streets every year is barbaric, the number of women and kids who die because of domestic violence is barbaric, football fans getting drunk and violent after each football match is barbaric, street kids can be barbaric, some countries being allowed to bomb another country just because they can is, in deed, barbaric.
You compare hooliganism to bull-torture? You are too much. And please, stop changing the subject by critisizing the USA (which I am not too fond of either) for something that you were part of. You went to Iraq, remember?

How is deer shooting less barbaric? Because it is a clean shot?
Are you serious? Of course shooting an animal is less barbaric than tormenting it to death for 10-20 minutes just for the fun of it! Damn, who am I talking to here?

How is fox hunting less barbaric? Because is royal?
As far as I know it is now illegal. Is bull-torture illegal in spain? No, and you have yourself admitted that you don't want it to be either.

I do not support bullfighting in anyway, but to tell Spaniards what to ban from their culture is totally out of order.
Wrong. You have no right to torment animals for fun. Animals are not your toys. What is out of order is your culture that involves tormenting animals for fun.

To hate a whole nation because of one aspect of their past that continues on into the present is absurd.
Really? So we should accept that the spaniards & their latin american cousins torment bulls for fun? I will NEVER accept that.

I think it is about time we wake up and stop trying to fix other cultures, specially when everyone else's is so far away from being perfect.
Apparently some cultures NEED to be fixed.

You call us cowards and savages...I think of you as narrow minded, intolerant, ridiculous and most of all opportunistic.
And you are nation of savages that enjoys watching confused animals being slowly put to death for the fun of it. Even those spaniards who claim to be against animal cruelty support it. This speaks volumes about you.

I hope Ben won't ban me now for responding to your accusations and your disgusting defence of animal cruelty which you're not even honest enough to admit that you're defending! I think I have the right to speak my mind. And please don't talk about insults. The spanish refusal to stop tormenting animals for fun is the biggest insult here.

spanish / latin american culture:

http://www.sharkonline.org/indexbullfighting.mv

[Brian]

http://www.salagir.com/gfx/troll-web-mini.jpg

[Edith]

We all know what you did to the Native Americans

You mean what WE did to the Native Americans, 'we' meaning the Spanish, the Portuguese, the British, the French, the Dutch and their colonist descendants in the New World. You should read up on some of the ugly stuff the Pilgrim Fathers from England wrote to justify the extermination of the Native Americans - stuff which inspired the next generations of Americans right until 1890. Does Wounded Knee ring a bell? Or the Trail of Tears?

You're out of your league here amigo. Stop hatemongering.

[Edith]

http://www.salagir.com/gfx/troll-web-mini.jpg

Oops, you're right Brian. But I couldn't resist replying to that one. :D

[Espanolero]

You mean what WE did to the Native Americans, 'we' meaning the Spanish, the Portuguese, the British, the French, the Dutch and their colonist descendants in the New World. You should read up on some of the ugly stuff the Pilgrim Fathers from England wrote to justify the extermination of the Native Americans - stuff which inspired the next generations of Americans right until 1890. Does Wounded Knee ring a bell? Or the Trail of Tears?
And what makes you think I'm a fan of englishmen or westerners in general? This is a forum about spain and I'm not here to discuss the brits. Rest assured, however: I am not unaware of what they've done.

[Ben]

I think I have made it clear to everyone what I think about you. You are indeed savages.

And you are nation of savages that enjoys watching confused animals being slowly put to death for the fun of it.

I hope Ben won't ban me now for responding to your accusations and your disgusting defence of animal cruelty which you're not even honest enough to admit that you're defending!

Sorry, you are banned. I asked you not to be rude to other forum members and to stop posting such abusive messages, and you paid no attention to the warning. This forum is obviously not the place for you. Your messages and your opinions remain in place. Suerte.

[gary]

Sorry, you are banned. I asked you not to be rude to other forum members and to stop posting such abusive messages, and you paid no attention to the warning. This forum is obviously not the place for you. Your messages and your opinions remain in place. Suerte.

Yup, well done, enough is enough......

[Jimmy]

Hmmmm - I'm offended by words badly spelt (Espanolero??)

I wonder if he also spells año with an 'n' !!! ;D

No matter - we can't get offended here, just take a positive spin - Ben get's to exercise some cyber-might and kick his first año (with an 'n') - and it makes the rest of us look good !!! ;)

[Brian]

Thank heavens that we don't have many troublemakers here. Sometimes you can add by subtraction, if you follow me. Well done, Ben! :thumbs-up: