Push for Simpler Spelling

[Alan]

Here's a story about Americans who want to simplify the English language to match the simplicity of Spanish. In Spanish everything is written as sounded (almost) but English has a plethora of words which could be spelt any number of ways. Add to that the huge number of loan words from foreign languages which can either retain their original spelling (café from French) or take an Anglicised form (bungalow, from the Urdu 'bungla').

America has already simplified a number of English words (centre, color etc.) but a better example is Irish Gaelic. Irish was simplified from being very similar to Scots Gaelic very successfully. An example of Scots Gaelic - comhfhurtail, 'comfortable' is pronounced 'corshtal'! Silent m,h,f,h,i and an "sh" sound that isn't even written!

Would English benefit from being re-written phonetically? I would like to hear the opinion of those who speak English as a first language and those who have learnt or are currently learning it.

Thanks :)

Edit: forgot to add the story! - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060705/ap_on_re_us/simpl_wurdz_1

[Bolboreta]

When I was learning English, sure, I would have preferred a simpler spelling system, or something that at least would give me some clues about how to pronounce things (ok, this one could still be useful). In fact, my dad always says that if English were written like Spanish, it'd be even more popular and everybody would end up using it.

Now that I do speak English, I'm totally opposed to a spelling reform. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that now I do think it's a beautiful language or something, but it'd just look so wrong. Not to mention different pronunciations, what do you do with those?

I speak a language that has been changing its spelling rules drastically, and I want to kill the guys who decided such monstrosity, because the result is a drop in literacy, not the other way around. What do you do with the people who already finished their educations? Nobody except the academics can speak "proper Galician" right now, so there you go, useless. And García Márquez and his ideas of changing Spanish spelling? crazy.

That said, the part of the article that says "illiteracy rates would drop" is definitely the scariest one. I can't wrap my head about anyone with normal intelligence not being able to spell correctly (not perfectly, a couple of mistakes are ok, but that's not what you usually see). I can spell correctly (for the most part) and I've been speaking English fluently only for 3 years, the fact that some people who have spoken it all their lives make more spelling mistakes than I do is just unbelievable. I wanted to cry when the grade 12 English teacher reminded her students that "a lot" were two words.

"Thae sae th bee selebraets th ability of a fue stoodents to master a dificult sistem that stumps meny utherz hoo cuud do just as wel if speling were simpler." *raises eyebrow* O RLY? I think many users could do it too if it was valued a bit more, but since worrying about spelling and grammar makes you a "grammar nazi" and sends you straight to the bottom of the social scale, I'm not surprised that just a "few students" master it. I'd say that if they're worried about it, they should start by checking their school system, not the spelling one.

[richardksa]

There was a move to simplify the English alphabet and George Bernard Shaw tried to introduce his Shavian system. His example was the now classic "GHOTI" which spells "fish" when you take the "GH" of "enough"; the "O" of "women", and the "TI" of "election". However, I am sure even he would hate some of the spellings the Americans are trying to impose such as "thru", "nite", "flite" and to regularise some orthography would be to deny words their true etymology, so Litre, Metre, Centre and Aluminium. Then of course wear, where and ware may take learning, but they do have different meanings that are readibly and readably apparent. "He threw the ball through the window" would surely be confusing to non native readers without the difference of spelling. So Vive la difference.

[Jimmy]

Five year phase-in plan for “EuroEnglish”

The European Commission have just announced an agreement wherebyEnglish will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty’s government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase in plan that would be known as “EuroEnglish”.

In the first year, “s” will replace the soft “c”. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump for joy. The hard “c” will be dropped in favour of the “k”. This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced with the “f”. This will make words like “fotograf” 20% shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent “e”s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.

By the 4th year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing “th” with “z” and “w” with “v”.

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords kontaining “ou” and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz year, ve vil hav a realy sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand each ozer.

ZE DREAM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!

[Alan]

I knew someone would post that :) I like that one :)

As for pronunciations though, I'm not even sure it would be possible to change this. I can give a couple of examples for here, but I'm sure it would be the same the world over.

'fool' and 'full' are pronounced in the same way in England, but differently here in Scotland. Here, they rhyme with 'cool' and 'cull', as the spelling would suggest. To spell them both 'fool' (or whatever) would deny this difference in pronunciation. There's a good reason for this and a huge number of our pronunciations - Scotland did not undergo the 'Great Vowel Shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift)' (a very interesting subject).

Words like thought, enough and brought are sometimes pronounced with a 'ch' sound for the 'gh' -> thocht, eneuch and brocht but this comes from Scots.

[Jimmy]

And this one is a sign above our photocopier at work:

Achtung!

Alles lookenpeepers, das instrumenten is nicht fer gerfingerpoken und hittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springerverk, poppen corken und blowen fusen mit spitz und sparken. Ist nicht fer geverken by das dumbkopf, alles rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in der pockets, relax und vatch der blinkin lights! :eek:

[Edith]

And this one is a sign above our photocopier at work:

Achtung!

Alles lookenpeepers, das instrumenten is nicht fer gerfingerpoken und hittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springerverk, poppen corken und blowen fusen mit spitz und sparken. Ist nicht fer geverken by das dumbkopf, alles rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in der pockets, relax und vatch der blinkin lights! :eek:

Das ist die Arbeit eines Besoffenen. ;D

[Brian]

I could see how simplifying English 100 or 200 years ago might work, but I could not possibly see how, in an age where literacy is at an all-time high, this might be accomplished.

Bolboreta, your written English is spectacular, for only having been fluido for 3 years. I was very impressed, indeed.
:clap:

[greytop]

Is the inability to spell related to the rise in youngsters watching TV instead of reading?
I always had my head in a book from the age of four and never had problems at school with spelling. There was also a trend to teach children to read using phonetics that may have contributed.
When at work I was amazed by some of the highly qualified but virtually illiterate people who applied for jobs with us. Not just spelling but a basic misuse of words as well. (I wood like to ...)
Now never mind the spelling - what about punctuation....

PS totally agree with Brian - Well done Bolboreta :thumbs-up: You make my stumbling mess of Spanish after 4 years look sad.

[Bolboreta]

Is the inability to spell related to the rise in youngsters watching TV instead of reading?
Well, that's probably a part of the problem, but some of these kids even read quite a bit. Things like the internet don't help much either (have you ever seen Spanish chatspeak?), because you get used to seeing everything spelled wrong, and one day you're typing "your" instead of "you're" without noticing! Also, from what I saw in the States, the Creative Writing classes are dangerous too; somehow they're telling the kids they can be too creative, so we get the "speshul snowflake syndrom", applying creativity to spelling too. I once tried to explain to a friend of mine (who generally has very good spelling) that "I should of gone" made no sense at all, and she just told me she liked that version better *headdesk*

Thanks for the compliments about my English, but I said fluent. I've been studying English since I was 8 years old, but the classes left too much to be desired; I think I only learned something the last 4 years of High School. Then, 3 years ago I left for a year in the States, and I've been considering myself "almost bilingual" since I came back ;D

PS - I don't think we should get into the mess of punctuation or grammar. I've seen people defend that grammar is unnecessary, and shouldn't be taught. Punctuation? What was that for again? *laughs* People just don't seem to understand that all those rules are there so we can all know what the other person is trying to say, instead of spending a good while guessing.

[Edith]

Thanks for the compliments about my English, but I said fluent. I've been studying English since I was 8 years old, but the classes left too much to be desired; I think I only learned something the last 4 years of High School. Then, 3 years ago I left for a year in the States, and I've been considering myself "almost bilingual" since I came back ;D.

Bolboreta, even though I'm not a native speaker myself I can see your English is great! Don't worry! ;)

[gary]

Would English benefit from being re-written phonetically? I would like to hear the opinion of those who speak English as a first language and those who have learnt or are currently learning it.



Stop it... we have enough trouble getting kids to spell, decimalisation decimated the nations mathematical dexterity, simplifying spelling would be the most confusing thing ever. plus if kids spelt words the way they say them every regional accent would have to have its own dictionary.


Most kids can learn an entire MandM lyric, provided that it has lots of juicy expletives - its a matter of application and motivation

this was tried with the Initial Teaching Alphabet (ITA) - it was a disster and left a generation of kids well confused....


No, no, no........

For fun - what kind of creature is this (its a spelling thing)

ghoti

[Brian]

this was tried with the Initial Teaching Alphabet (ITA) - it was a disster and left a generation of kids well confused....


What a load of horse poopie that ITA was. :X I already knew how to read upon entering 1st grade, and they passed me on to 2nd grade after 4 days because they taught ITA at my school, and didn't want to confuse me.

There's no coincidence that I won the school spelling bee every year that I was there. I was surrounded by kids that learned that being "hukt on fonix" is fun. :rolleyes:

[Brian]

You get used to seeing everything spelled wrong, and one day you're typing "your" instead of "you're" without noticing!


Except American kids, when IM'ing "your" or "you're," would spell it UR


Is the inability to spell related to the rise in youngsters watching TV instead of reading?


I think so. Both of my kids have spent more time reading than they have in front of the tv, and are head and shoulders above their peers in terms of command of the English language, vocabulary, spelling, etc.

[Alan]

For fun - what kind of creature is this (its a spelling thing)

ghoti
fish : the 'gh' from 'cough', the 'o' from 'women' and the 'ti' from 'motion'.

They don't call me El Listo for nothing! :P

[gary]

fish : the 'gh' from 'cough', the 'o' from 'women' and the 'ti' from 'motion'.

They don't call me El Listo for nothing! :P


Yup, Ive just spotted richardska s post above.... he got there before I did

[gary]

You get used to seeing everything spelled wrong, and one day you're typing "your" instead of "you're" without noticing!
this is so true - when I left college my spelling was secure, after a few years as an english teacher and a few more working with Special Needs and primary ages kids I often doubt my own ability to now the correct spellings of quite a lot of words.

[greytop]

this is so true - when I left college my spelling was secure, after a few years as an english teacher and a few more working with Special Needs and primary ages kids I often doubt my own ability to now the correct spellings of quite a lot of words.

Aha - the silent K in "know"

[Brian]

this is so true - when I left college my spelling was secure, after a few years as an english teacher and a few more working with Special Needs and primary ages kids I often doubt my own ability to now the correct spellings of quite a lot of words.

Even America's brightest marketers can't seem to get it right. I was looking at an advertising poster in a fine stemware section of a department store yesterday, when I ran across improper use of the possessive (using it's when its was needed). The well-written blurb had but one error in it, which stuck out like a sore thumb.

I hate in any way to be the Grammar Police, but if such errors in copy escape past all the editors, then there is a very serious language issue in my country.

[Alan]

and just to hammer home the point, I was filling up in a petrol station in manchester which had a sign saying 'for you're security images are taken in this store'...

[Brian]

and just to hammer home the point, I was filling up in a petrol station in manchester which had a sign saying 'for you're security images are taken in this store'...

Your too funny! ;)

[Jimmy]

This is an example of why I LOVE english - and am so glad that I learnt it as my natural language - cheers to those that can pronounce all this correctly and english is not their 1st language!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aqsb70.dsl.pipex.com/tidbits/pronunciation.shtml

;D :eek: :p
This is way too clever !!

[gary]

Aha - the silent K in "know"

Touché - my tpyigns worse than my speillgn;)

[richardksa]

'fool' and 'full' are pronounced in the same way in England, but differently here in Scotland. Here, they rhyme with 'cool' and 'cull', as the spelling would suggest. To spell them both 'fool' (or whatever) would deny this difference in pronunciation. There's a good reason for this and a huge number of our pronunciations - Scotland did not undergo the 'Great Vowel Shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift)' (a very interesting subject).

I'm sorry!!!!!!! Here in the south of England the "oo" in "fool" is almost the same as in toot, an "u" sound. Full rhymes with pull. It's the great N/S divide between barth and bath, boook and book, sayz and sez (says). And with the consonents as in usss and uzzz, (us). (I've just spend the weekend in York, watching my son marry a local girl, and finding some things getting lost in translation!)

I am pleased I learned to read before the introduction of ITA. We were just taught how all the letters sounded and to spell them that way. OK, some rules had to be taught for silent letters, but learnt quickly with repeated spellings. My son, the newlywed above, learned using the "whole word system", meaning he learned to read words and not build them from the sounds of individual syllables. We moved when he was six and found he was well in advance of his new classmates.

(Quick blast at the British Educational system here: His new teacher called us into school to tell us he was very backward with his reading. This was news to us as at the age of six he had read several advanced books and was, at that very time, reading "Treasure Island". Asked why he was not cooperating in class he told us that "Topsy and Tim were for kids!" He wasn't going to read that which bored him. Incredulous teacher came close to calling us liars, but fetched a book from the primary school next door and had him read it to her. I was angry as I felt I was facing the Spanish Inquisition. However, he read it with hardly any hesitation, leading to collapse of teacher's argument. From then on he was allowed to use the primary school library. His brother, two years his junior, learned to read at that school and never reached the level of his brother. Would it be pertinent to point out that the "whole word"system was taught at a fee paying school, from where we had to remove him due to my work commitments, and the dubious teacher worked in the state sector?)

[gary]

I'm sorry!!!!!!! Here in the south of England the "oo" in "fool" is almost the same as in toot, an "u" sound. Full rhymes with pull. It's the great N/S divide between barth and bath, boook and book, sayz and sez (says). And with the consonents as in usss and uzzz, (us). (I've just spend the weekend in York, watching my son marry a local girl, and finding some things getting lost in translation!)

Got to agree full = pull, fool = pool in my part of Yorkshire

If anything this is a trait of the Scots!!



I am pleased I learned to read before the introduction of ITA.

ITA was a very short experiment. Then they went to whole word, which suited some but not others and amazingly in the last three years a brand new method of teaching reading has emerged. Its called new phonics.

Ah well ... here we go again....fact is that most teachers worth their salt use the lot - anything that works works the job is to be flexible, see when a kis is not hacking it and change tack til you find the best path.

If the advisers and educationalist ever get it right they'll be out of a job so it's in their interest to come up with a 'brand new' strategy every couple of years.

The trick is to keep to more or less the same methodology and evert 8 - 10 years it will roll round into fashion, and thats when you get your promotions...!