Global Warming

[deecree]

Today the World Heritage Body rejected a motion calling for cuts in carbon emissions after heavy lobbying from the Bush administration.

There are 125 Unesco World Heritage sites that are under threat from global warming, some of which are in Peru, including the area I visited a couple of weeks ago - Huascaran National Park.

The World Heritage Body did not agree that the best way to protect the melting of the glaciers in the Peruvian Andes and in the Himalayas was to reduce the carbon emissions that cause global warming. This is despite producing a survey recently detailing the current damage caused to heritage sites by increased global temperatures.

Pastoruri, a small peak I climbed a couple of weeks ago (http://enperu.blogsyte.com/blog.aspx?b=54) has a glacier that has retreated by 200m in the past 10 years alone.

Peru's tropical glaciers are in particular danger from global warming due to the already fierce sun. Peru is home to more tropical glaciers than anywhere in the world. Peru has already lost 20% of all its glaciers, and will almost all within the next 7 years.

The natural process of melting glaciers also provides most Andean residents with their only source of water in the dry season, with the increased affect of global warming, many towns and city's including the cities on the coast, will be without water for half of the year.

A further threat from glacial retreat is the increased risk of chunks of glacier cracking and breaking free then crushing whole cities, particularly when there are earthquakes in this earthquake-prone region. This is what happened to Yungay in 1970, which I also visited (http://enperu.blogsyte.com/blog.aspx?b=48), where tens of thousands died.

It's not all bad though, perhaps US oil money can pay for future disaster relief.

[greytop]

Interesting photos Deecree. That is a true wilderness area.
Wonder what the future historians (if there are any!) will say about our destruction of the planet.
I hear on today's news that Britain will go for more nuclear and alternative energy sources to cut down on the emissions but even with ten or fifteen years building of alternative sources they will still only be providing 30% of electricity from non carbon based fuel.
And stand by for the outcry about the nuclear option.:hammer:
UK TV were running a series of reports called "3 degrees from disaster" which showed the situation around the world and it was quite frightening at times.
The real answer is probably for us to change our present energy extravagant life styles but can you see that happening voluntarily? As individuals we can only do what each of us can to try and make a difference.

[gary]

im never sure how much of al this is bull and hype, When I was a kid scientists were claiming that we had to do something to stop us from going into another ice age. The air in this country is far far cleaner than then, when we all burned coal.

I am paying the best part of £5 - thats $9 - for a single gallon of fuel in order to save the planet from greenhouse gasses - do I do any fewer miles? - no cos its still cheaper than public transport.

I cant help thinking that the motive of the governments is to keep tax revenue up.

The whole of Russia, the far east, China and America are belching out carbon with little consideration for anything - and a cow gives out more greenhouse gass than a Range Rover.

Theres a lot of people making a steady living out of talking b****cks about the environment.

[deecree]

im never sure how much of al this is bull and hype, When I was a kid scientists were claiming that we had to do something to stop us from going into another ice age. The air in this country is far far cleaner than then, when we all burned coal.


How much of which parts of which arguement is bull and hype?

One arguement is that our actions that are raising the levels of carbon in the atmosphere are not necessarally the cause of increasing global temperatures, the results of which I have seen with my eyes. Interestingly, this is no longer the view taken by, for example, the US government.

Regardless of whether the temperature increase is as natural as the increases of history, it certainly does mean an "ice age" as you called it for north atlantic countries as the wonderful golf-stream desalanises.


I am paying the best part of £5 - thats $9 - for a single gallon of fuel in order to save the planet from greenhouse gasses - do I do any fewer miles? - no cos its still cheaper than public transport.


That's not saving the planet, that's called "purchasing over-taxed fuel".


I cant help thinking that the motive of the governments is to keep tax revenue up.


Which government(s)? Many, with the exception of Gordon Brown and taxing drivers, have a motivation to keep energy costs as low as possible to keep the economy moving.

The Government seeking tax revenue is the arguement against almost every decision made in the UK, it seems.


The whole of Russia, the far east, China and America are belching out carbon with little consideration for anything - and a cow gives out more greenhouse gass than a Range Rover.


Yes they are. What is your point?


Theres a lot of people making a steady living out of talking b****cks about the environment.

People make money out of anything they can, whether its hyping global warming to produce, for example, alarmist TV documentaries and movies, or making money out of taking more from the ecosystem in which they live than it can support. I am particularly guilty of this with my electricity use.
I am also guilty of polluting air travel.

[gary]

One arguement is that our actions that are raising the levels of carbon in the atmosphere are not necessarally the cause of increasing global temperatures, the results of which I have seen with my eyes. Interestingly, this is no longer the view taken by, for example, the US government.

yup, but scientists agree we are still heading, long term for an ice age...

Regardless of whether the temperature increase is as natural as the increases of history, it certainly does mean an "ice age" as you called it for north atlantic countries as the wonderful golf-stream desalanises.
yup, and its a cycle - it will start up again using whatever mechanism it used on previous cycles


That's not saving the planet, that's called "purchasing over-taxed fuel".

yup


Which government(s)? Many, with the exception of Gordon Brown and taxing drivers, have a motivation to keep energy costs as low as possible to keep the economy moving.
Yup - successive British Governments have taxed us into submission on fuel - even to heat our homes!!


The Government seeking tax revenue is the arguement against almost every decision made in the UK, it seems.
Yup - we have had 54 (I think) new stealth taxes in the life of this Government - teyre even raiding the pension funds now


Yes they are. What is your point?
Glad you agree - tell me whats the price pf fuel in america, russia, china per gallon then ask me why Im pissed off, then guess what my point is...


People make money out of anything they can, whether its hyping global warming to produce, for example, alarmist TV documentaries and movies, or making money out of taking more from the ecosystem in which they live than it can support. I am particularly guilty of this with my electricity use.
I pay for every kilowatt and I am taxed on what I pay so no guilt here

I am also guilty of polluting air travel.
Me too - I love it - and am taxed handsomely on it so dont feel guilty

So just get on with your life and enjoy the little things - food, fine wine, good company, childrens laughter - stop worrying about the planet it will be here when you and all your relatives that you are likely to meet in the future are long gone. Look at the last 100 years progress in inventions and technology - back then steam power was king - have faith in the future.

Oh - whatever happened to the hole in the ozone layer that they used to carp on about - guess its not the ecological flavour of the month now.

[deecree]

Me too - I love it - and am taxed handsomely on it so dont feel guilty

So just get on with your life and enjoy the little things - food, fine wine, good company, childrens laughter - stop worrying about the planet it will be here when you and all your relatives that you are likely to meet in the future are long gone. Look at the last 100 years progress in inventions and technology - back then steam power was king - have faith in the future.

Oh - whatever happened to the hole in the ozone layer that they used to carp on about - guess its not the ecological flavour of the month now.

If it were the environment doing the taxing, I'd feel very little guilt too.

As for the future, my point is, as stated in my original post, many parts of the world will not be here after I am long gone, such as the glaciers of north and south america, europe and asia. The coral reefs of Belize will also not make it through this decade. Nor will many other of the most interesting parts of the planet.

And yes, I agree, lets go full steam ahead and start investing in new technologies. It's definitely the way forward, unless we want to revert to small farming communities, which I certainly don't. I have faith in human innovation, but less faith in the politics that decide what and how much innovation there will be. Do I think everything will be ok in the end? Yes, probably, but not before we loose much of what makes the planet so interesting, not without suffering many more New Orleans disasters, and not without enduring dozens of wars over food and water shortages.

[ValenciaSon]

Unfortunately it is human nature not to act until there has been some damage. Until then, there is a well-developed denial system which perpetuates the status quo. We like our creature comforts.

[gary]

Do I think everything will be ok in the end? Yes, probably, but not before we loose much of what makes the planet so interesting, not without suffering many more New Orleans disasters, and not without enduring dozens of wars over food and water shortages.
When you build a city below sea level its difficult to predict the 500 year storm sequence.

The fact is that when we are young we are enfused with the feeling that we can change the world... as we get older we are more wary lest the world changes us.

It is difficult to know when you are being manipulated - our own government give out the green environmental signals on one hand and have approved runway 5 at heathrow on the other- this is the first government to have an environmental justification for building more nuclear power stations.

If they could be bothered they could extract greenhouse gasses from the air and pump them back into the ground to fill the voids from whence they were released. Likely? - nahh.

Even the healthy minister that cycles to work has two cars following him. Fine words, fine wine and good food, who would not want to be a minister?

The politicians wont do it, and the people simply dont have the will to act collectively, the earth was here before we were and will be here when we have gone, we are just an episode in the planets journey through time and space and after our extinction the earth will move on to the next phase.

Keeping those closest to you happy and safe is the best thing you can expect to do with your life - anything greater is a bonus.

[/kirk out]

[ValenciaSon]

We should continue this discussion when we have the 1000 member party, along with a couple of cases of fine rioja. Whatdya say?

[gary]

We should continue this discussion when we have the 1000 member party, along with a couple of cases of fine rioja. Whatdya say?

Why so stingy with the wine - make that two truckloads for the 1000 of us and youve got a deal!!

[ValenciaSon]

I saw the movie "An Inconvenient Truth" last evening with my wife. I highly recommend all to see this film. I'm sure you have all heard this message before so its content in general is not news to you, but it is still quite compelling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHc9PawwoNk

and

http://www.climatecrisis.net/

[cubix]

I read Al Gore's Inconveint Truth book before I left for my trip. We spent the entire month disscussing the climate and global warming. I think that the first step to solving the problem is through society, politicans will change to what the people want.

Pick up this week copy of Newsweek, it talks about the greening of society. If I feel up for I will write a longer reply to this some time, but right now I am beat

Greg

[gary]

II think that the first step to solving the problem is through society, politicans will change to what the people want.

Greg

Welcome back.....

What do you think would happen to a politician that suggested that the price of petrol at the pump should go up to $9 per gallon (GB Prices)?

[ValenciaSon]

Welcome back.....

What do you think would happen to a politician that suggested that the price of petrol at the pump should go up to $9 per gallon (GB Prices)?

Well there is more at stake here than the career of a politician. Once the public becomes informed and makes these demands on their legislators, then the expectation will be for steps towards the reduction of greenhouse gases. Politicians can make that can happen by other means such as raising the fuel efficiency standards of automobiles, stopping deforestation and stopping coal burning just to name a few.

What I think An Inconvenient Truth makes clear is that we can't just sweep this under the rug. Whatever self-correcting mechanism that is in place in the earth is being overwhelmed by the accumulating effects of our release of greenhouses gases and the consequences are being experienced by more and more people.

[gary]

Once the public becomes informed and makes these demands on their legislators, then the expectation will be for steps towards the reduction of greenhouse gases.

Care to put a time frame on when that might happen?

Hell might freez over first

.... raising the fuel efficiency standards of automobiles,

Triple the price like they have in the UK asnd that'll focus folks attention....

[ValenciaSon]

Compelling evidence in the movie says otherwise. If glaciers keep melting as they have been, I think the time estimate was 10-30 years. Bear in mind there are consequences already being realized.

[richardksa]

Today's weather in Madrid


Observed at:
Madrid, SPElevation:1909 ft / 582 m
http://icons-aa.wunderground.com/graphics/conds/clear.GIF90 °F / 32 °C
Clear
Well its hotter than that, by 1 degree, in my English midlands garden right now, so I wont have to get acclimatised for Madrid next week. Good.

Americans please note the correct use of acclimatised as opposed to acclimated.;)

[Brian]

Americans please note the correct use of acclimatised as opposed to acclimated.;)

I knew that this was coming soon.

Sorry, but I'm not in favor of coloring our language with paralyzing shades of gray. ;)

[greytop]

Richardksa: Americans please note the correct use of acclimatised as opposed to acclimated.I knew that this was coming soon.

Sorry, but I'm not in favor of coloring our language with paralyzing shades of gray. ;)
Two nations divided by a common language!

[gary]

I knew that this was coming soon.

Sorry, but I'm not in favor of coloring our language with paralyzing shades of gray. ;)

OK I can't resist......

Favour
colour
paralysing
grey
(and not forgetting clerk)

There that feels better.....

and note... when you do use acclimatised spell it correctly (like rchardska did) with an s not a z.

burglarised would be spelt with an s but there is NO SUCH WORD!!!

</tongue-in-cheek>

[gary]

Compelling evidence in the movie says otherwise. If glaciers keep melting as they have been, I think the time estimate was 10-30 years. Bear in mind there are consequences already being realized.

I meant the time til the public made the politicians act - not the time for the glaciers to melt......

;)

[richardksa]

OK I can't resist......

Favour
colour
paralysing
grey
(and not forgetting clerk)

There that feels better.....

Not forgetting "obliged" as opposed to "obligated" Ugh!!!!!!:mad:

[ValenciaSon]

OK I can't resist......

Favour
colour
paralysing
grey
(and not forgetting clerk)

There that feels better.....

and note... when you do use acclimatised spell it correctly (like rchardska did) with an s not a z.

burglarised would be spelt with an s but there is NO SUCH WORD!!!

</tongue-in-cheek>


You say tomato and I say tomAto:rolleyes: When in Rome.

[ValenciaSon]

You Brits talk real good but you sure can't spell:hammer::hammer:

[gary]

You say tomato and I say tomAto:rolleyes: When in Rome.


" Our word "tomato" is but a slight modification of tomati, the word used by the Indians of Mexico"

and when when in mexico....?

[ValenciaSon]

When in Mexico it is tomate.

[richardksa]

When in Mexico it is tomate.

And is pronounced "tomARte" or "tomAYte"?

[Edith]

Richardksa: Americans please note the correct use of acclimatised as opposed to acclimated.I knew that this was coming soon.

Two nations divided by a common language!

Like Dutch and Flemish: slightly different pero nos entendemos mutuamente! ;)

[ValenciaSon]

It's pronounced tomate like in Spain.

[cubix]

Well there is more at stake here than the career of a politician. Once the public becomes informed and makes these demands on their legislators, then the expectation will be for steps towards the reduction of greenhouse gases. Politicians can make that can happen by other means such as raising the fuel efficiency standards of automobiles, stopping deforestation and stopping coal burning just to name a few.

What I think An Inconvenient Truth makes clear is that we can't just sweep this under the rug. Whatever self-correcting mechanism that is in place in the earth is being overwhelmed by the accumulating effects of our release of greenhouses gases and the consequences are being experienced by more and more people.

Inconveint truth also makes the point, that this won't happen overnight, I know a lot of very radical environmentalist through my volunteering and such, and I try to explain to them that it won't happen overnight, and until true alternatives are found we are just prolonging the problem. For example deforestation, even if you stop logging old growth forests in the US or other well to do countries, we will just transfer our burden to 3rd world countires. Coal, well if coal is burnt properly and the proper filters it can be one of the best fuels available. One thing about the raising the gas prices, the US is a lot larger than England or other European countries, more spread out and without decent long distance travel(let's face it Amtrak and Greyhound suck)

[ValenciaSon]

It is already happening was the point I got from the film. And the really bad stuff will happen sooner then later. As far as using cleaner method for coal burning, that's a lot of ifs and it is too tempting for countries to use the cheaper rather than alternative of burning coal. If we don't stop deforestation every one will have a worsening burden.

I think we have the ingenuity to work around global warming, sucky Amtrak and Greyhound and all.