Opinion of Americans

[thismortalcoil]

I hope I'm not repeating a previous topic, but I am curious...
This may be hard to generalize, but how do the people of Spain (and Europe as a whole) view Americans and our way of life? I know we are often stereotyped as lazy and selfish! My scholarship sponsors who are sending me to Spain have warned me that Europeans do not generally view Americans with very high regard. Part of my duties as an Ambassadorial Scholar to Spain is to help improve the opinion of Americans abroad. I am interested to know what (if any) pre-conceived notions to expect when I arrive.
What do you all think? (And don't worry about offending the Americans...let's hear it!) :)

[richardksa]

Three things: Over sexed, over-paid and over here!!!!!

No, sorry. Old joke based on old stereotype. In Europe Americans en masse are seen by some as pushy and overbearing, but like all nations, you have your bad as well as your good. Every American I have met in the past twelve months, with the exception of my boss(!), has been polite and charming and well received.

[Brian]

[quote=richardksa]Three things: Over sexed, ....[quote]

And Ben, with his sex blog??? ;)

[neskadebilbao]

The two most common things people asked me about knowing that I was an American was if having a concealed weapon was common place and whether or not I liked Bush. I never experienced anything bad due to my nationality. Some of the funniest comments had to do with the lady at the panadería who would refer to me as una rubia "no de la caja". Meaning that I didn´t dye my hair like the other spaniards! : )

[neskadebilbao]

And another word of advice....do everything you can to make friends with Spaniards. Although you will have Americans to confide in, the way to change people´s attitudes is to let them see what you are really like...not to mention the other positive aspects...Spaniards can show you how life really is, the fun places to go, things to do, and your Spanish will improve!

[gary]

...and whether or not I liked Bush. : )


Oooer missis...as Frankie Howerd would have said...titter ye not! :blush:

[Edith]

I know we are often stereotyped as lazy and selfish!

Stereotypes always do injustice to a lot of people. The US is a big country with more than 250 million inhabitants and many ethnic groups and subcultures, which renders most generalizations useless. Bush is extremely impopular in Europe, but unfortunately some people don't seem to understand that millions of Americans do not like him, either. Twenty years ago, I spent some time in Arizona as a student and this cultural 'immersion' has been a very enriching experience. So, even though I do not always agree with America's foreign policy, I don't like it when people keep ranting and raving against Americans as if they were all one and the same.

Wherever you go, you will always meet nice people as well as not-so-nice people; this has got nothing to do with nationality! I really hope you will enjoy your trip to Spain. :)

[Brian]

Bush is extremely impopular in Europe, but unfortunately some people don't seem to understand that millions of Americans do not like him, either.

And that there are millions of Americans who like Bush, but aren't bad people for liking him.

[gary]

And that there are millions of Americans who like Bush, but aren't bad people for liking him.

Margret thatcher was Prime Minister of this country for 17 years but you are hard pressed to find anyone who will publicly admit to voting for her... they were good people too that voted the way they thought best for their country at the time

same old same old...

[Mark]

I can only speak as a Brit, or should I say Englishman, but being a polite bunch (on the whole) you'll find us treating Americans pretty much the same as we do everybody else.

A couple of pieces of advice on endearing yourselves to French tour guides of underground caves (we were attached to the tail end of an American party when we visited some caves in France)....

1. When busy at war with other countries and in full knowledge that lots of Europeans don't agree, particularly in the country you're visiting, don't wear a "20 great years of high tech weaponry" (or words to that affect) t-shirt with pictures of fighter jets all over it.

2. Try not to make it obvious that the only thing that will convice you that neanderthal man lived in the cave you're standing in is a rotting corpse (yes, a couple of them, the Americans, not neanderthal man, were close to demanding their money back)

Of course, we Brits just smiled, said goodbye politely, and then muttered... "it's no wonder some people don't like 'em" once we were back in our car.

Get out there and do a good job of counteracting these types. Meanwhile I'll head off to Benaldamena and try to convice the Spanish locals that some Brits drink less than 20 pints on a night out.

[Edith]

And that there are millions of Americans who like Bush, but aren't bad people for liking him.

That's true too.

[Marina]

Meanwhile I'll head off to Benaldamena and try to convice the Spanish locals that some Brits drink less than 20 pints on a night out.

Good luck with that one:D:D:D, I know is completely true but the ones that tend to visit our coasts usually belong to the group of over 20 drinks a night.

And that there are millions of Americans who like Bush, but aren't bad people for liking him.

I don't think they are bad people, but can someone explain to me what is what they like about him or his politics, because it is difficult to understand from this side of the ocean. Note that I don't intend to be rude to anyone it is just a question of curiosity.

[Andy E]

Meanwhile I'll head off to Benaldamena and try to convice the Spanish locals that some Brits drink less than 20 pints on a night out.

An outrageous slur! I never go over 19 myself.

Andy.

[Brian]

I don't think they are bad people, but can someone explain to me what is what they like about him or his politics, because it is difficult to understand from this side of the ocean. Note that I don't intend to be rude to anyone it is just a question of curiosity.

No, it's ok. :)

I don't agree with most of Bush's carrying out of his policy, even though I voted for him twice. That said, I do appreciate his straightforwardness. Sometimes, you need a politician to say what he/she thinks instead of hiding behind double talk.

I've always voted Republican, but I might swing the other way if a better candidate is available in 2008. Often, the Democratic candidate is just impossible to vote for because he's just way out in left field. Except for Bill Clinton, this has been the case in almost every US election since the 70s.

[greytop]

Margret thatcher was Prime Minister of this country for 17 years but you are hard pressed to find anyone who will publicly admit to voting for her... they were good people too that voted the way they thought best for their country at the time

same old same old...

I voted for her. >:DShe had her faults but did some things that needed doing at the time.
I also wore a label when Blair got elected saying
"Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him"

Ah! who'd be a politician? Maybe it's that old Peter Principle again ;DLOL

[Brian]

Ah! who'd be a politician? Maybe it's that old Peter Principle again ;DLOL

Maybe Marina remembers this, but there used to be an old Spanish joke that my father in law would tell. He would take a calculator in hand, and proceed to add up all the sins and errors of the Spanish government. At the end, he would end up with the total: 51070705, which, when you turn the calculator upside-down, reads: solo lios. ;D

[gary]

I voted for her. >:DShe had her faults but did some things that needed doing at the time.
I also wore a label when Blair got elected saying
"Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him"


Me too - she bit the bullet and did what needed doing - Blairs master stroke was to up sticks with his party and camp out in their territory forcing the Cons to move further right...

[osvaldo]

I don't think they are bad people, but can someone explain to me what is what they like about him or his politics, because it is difficult to understand from this side of the ocean. Note that I don't intend to be rude to anyone it is just a question of curiosity.[/QUOTE]

Marina,

All I can say is that Americans are starting to wake up. His approval rate is currently at 36% and dropping.

Other than my conservative Brother & Mother, I don't know of anyone who actually voted for him. And lets not forget that in the 2000 elections, against Al Gore, he he lost the popular vote by 500,000.

Marina, many Americans are embarrassed by him, so you are not alone.

[Marina]

Thanks Brian and Osvaldo for the explanations.

I truly disagree with his approach to politics, which from my point of view is basically making everyone feel that we are in danger and selling himself and his wars as the saver of humanity. No need to say that he didn't solve the problem at all...

I also wonder what's the opinion of his voters about the state of the Guantanamo prisioners. Sorry Brian that will be my last question on this subject;)

[neskadebilbao]

I truly disagree with his approach to politics, which from my point of view is basically making everyone feel that we are in danger and selling himself and his wars as the saver of humanity.

Well said!

I would like to add that I think it's a disgrace to elect the son of a former president. Just because George Bush (#1) was president doesn't mean that George W (#2) will be great.

Adding to the American polemic I must add that the biggest problem in my opinion is that Americans do not know what is going on outside their own country. I am making a generalization, but for the most part I believe it is true. I myself feel that I know more than the average American however I have a long way to go.

I also wonder what's the opinion of his voters about the state of the Guantanamo prisioners.

Referring to what I just wrote above..this is one thing that I am not educated on-sadly. Could someone summarize the who, what and why?

[osvaldo]

I couldn't agree with you more! If it wasn't for his father, he would not be president. The only thing he's really good at is lies, lies and more lies.

I've taken to liberty of listing some of his best work.

1. "It’s time to restore honor and dignity to the White House."
2. "We found the weapons of mass destruction."
3. "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
4. "I first got to know Ken [Lay in 1994]." As the Enron scandal reached the White House in early 2002, Bush uttered this remark, claiming he had nothing to do with Lay until after winning the 1994 Texas gubernatorial election.
?5. "[We are] taking every possible step to protect our country from danger."
6. "We must uncover every detail and learn every lesson of September the 7. " Bush said this in November 2002, as he appointed Henry Kissinger to be chairman of an independent 9/11 commission that Bush had originally opposed.
8. "I’m a uniter not a divider."

And the list goes on and on and on....

[ValenciaSon]

Thanks Brian and Osvaldo for the explanations.

I truly disagree with his approach to politics, which from my point of view is basically making everyone feel that we are in danger and selling himself and his wars as the saver of humanity. No need to say that he didn't solve the problem at all...

I also wonder what's the opinion of his voters about the state of the Guantanamo prisioners. Sorry Brian that will be my last question on this subject;)
Bush's motives for war are certainly questionable. He missed an opportunity to capture Bin Laden in Afghanistan because he wanted Iraq, despite what intelligence reports indicated. The whole weapons of mass destruction debacle is another example of how Bush is less than truthful about his motives for war. How are we supposed to ignore the fact that Halliburton benefits from the US presence in Iraq and that the vice-president was the CEO of Halliburton?

Marina, you ask about Bush's flawed methods to save humanity. Well I don't think that was his intention. The only thing he is interested in saving is some money for the oil industry. Despite Bush's re-election, most americans oppose his methods.

With all due respect to those who voted for Bush, I think what Bush is doing in Guantanamo is criminal and a travesty. It is an American Gulag for all intense purposes. Here is a president who says he is motivated by fighting tyrannic oppressors and so what does he do? He creates a prision where he feels free to evade the law as he violates basic freedoms for individuals. I am embarassed by Bush for this action (and others).

Bush will not listen to military advisers regarding the war and Guantanamo. There have been many high-ranking military officers who have retired and state that this administration is the most arrogant in that they will not listen to military advisers. The military advisers cautioned against going into Iraq without an exit strategy. They also cautioned against how the current force strength is used stating that it is excessive and will deplete the US military. The advisers also cautioned that the troops are inadequately equipped and need what's missing before engaging in what seems like a conflict without end. Parents of soldiers had to buy protective armor (bullet-proof vests) because the military failed to supply enough and the vehicles are inadequately protected.

Marina, we have young americans dying there on a daily basis. So and many other (most) americans increasingly oppose the war. You always have those few Bush supporters who remain pro-Bush. I can only speculate that they remain supportive because they feel Bush can do no wrong and/or they want to believe they made the correct choice when they voted for him.

I know people who work in GIS (SIG in spanish) for the US government and one of their responsibilities is to generate computerized maps in order to manage disasters and they tell me how they have to revise maps presented to Bush because he is so incompetent and therefore easily overwhelmed bya map with any kind of detail. Living in the metro DC area, I know many people who in some way or another work with or for the US government and can tell you many similar stories that you will never hear in the press. Bottom line: he is incompetent but because he does know when to speak with folksy expressions and likes to denigrate intellectuals and intelligence, a vast majority voted for him.

A veces el me da mucha verguenza por ser americano.

[Brian]

A veces el me da mucha verguenza por ser americano.

Although I am greatly dismayed over the situation in my country, I am not ashamed to be an American. I am, however, ashamed of much American policy.

But I digress. I'm here to talk about Spain and celebrate its culture, language, and norms. :)

[gary]

I agree withyou about the Guantanamo bay thing and what about the alleged rendition that has been going on for years.....? Our government were complicit in all of this and it may well cost the Labour party the next election.

I cant help but thinking that if Bush senior had finished the job 25 years ago when we had the stomach for the fight and some real reasons to go in, we might have been in a better place now?

[ValenciaSon]

I cant help but thinking that if Bush senior had finished the job 25 years ago when we had the stomach for the fight and some real reasons to go in, we might have been in a better place now?[/quote]


That's because Bush senior stopped as soon as the oil was secured. He then lost interest in Saddam, anyone or anything else.

Logically you can't judge all citizens by the actions of their country's leader, and you can't generalize individuals who support a leader. I think the irony in all this is that some of harshest opinions of americans and their policies come from americans themselves because we know better than anyone else what crap stinks up our backyard.

[Brian]

I cant help but thinking that if Bush senior had finished the job 25 years ago when we had the stomach for the fight and some real reasons to go in, we might have been in a better place now?


That's because Bush senior stopped as soon as the oil was secured. He then lost interest in Saddam, anyone or anything else.

Logically you can't judge all citizens by the actions of their country's leader, and you can't generalize individuals who support a leader. I think the irony in all this is that some of harshest opinions of americans and their policies come from americans themselves because we know better than anyone else what crap stinks up our backyard.

The first Gulf War was about protecting American interests (oil), not about overthrowing governments, so I understand the reasoning that we didn't finish off Baghdad in '91.

[outpostbabu]

In forums, topics like this ALWAYS turn into Bush-bashing sessions. Understood, "the world" and many Americans do not like his policies and perhaps distrust his motives but presidents are presidents for 4 or 8 years, no more. They do not define the American. They just make liberals really upset or really happy >:D. Also, I have to disagree with the comments that Americans are somehow ignorant to the happenings of the world. I can't watch the news or read a paper without being constantly told whats happening in Africa, the Middle East, India, or China (ok and sometimes Europe too). American policy affects the entire world (in positive and negative ways) and Americans want to understand that.

Now for the original question: As an American, I have never run into anybody in any of the countries I've visited that has had ill-will towards me simply for being an American. Usually people are ecstatic just to meet a foreigner, no matter where they are from. I think people universally recognize that a nationality is not a personality and that I am not the President. ;D

[osvaldo]

[QUOTE=outpostbabu]In forums, topics like this ALWAYS turn into Bush-bashing sessions. Understood, "the world" and many Americans do not like his policies and perhaps distrust his motives but presidents are presidents for 4 or 8 years, no more. They do not define the American. They just make liberals really upset or really happy

It's not quite that simple. Our presidents policies will gravely impact liberals, conservatives, and the world at large for years to come. And while no president defines a country, it's a bit naive to think that people from other parts of the universe will view Americans favorably when the effects of our leaders decisions consistently divide us from those of the global community.

And that's all I'm going to say about that. I'm done with the Bush bashing - it's far too easy!

[catavino]

No Spaniard or any other nationality has ever taken and judged me(so far) prematurely just for being an American(or at least to my face). Most if not all Spainards want to know why Bush is in power. But they all say that "your government is not you" and they then begin a discussion. This is what is great about being here. Discussion. Something that I had found I couldn't have anymore back home. When you criticized someone for an action it meant you were bashing them. Holding someone accountable for there actions meant that you hated them or were against them.
When a President, senator, or School board member says something contridictory to what they do they should be questioned. Lately it seems that we in the USA have forgotton that it's ok to make mistakes, and to admit them, and to sometimes challenge even those people that you support, when they make a mistake.
I'm proud to be a human who happens to be an American. But I think what makes my travels so much easier for me as I move through out the world is to remember that the fact that as an American I am no more important than if I were an Englishman, Iraqi, or Spaniard.
So to answer the original question. No Americans are not looked down upon. Nor are they treated that differently(yes they get charged more for Sangria in the Plaza Mayor, but so does everyone). The best part of being an American when you do come abroad is the chance to have a discussion, without being told you are wrong, or that you hate everyone, or that you are too liberal or too conservative. You can be nuetral here, or independent if you want. You can hate things Bush has done and Love things he has done and not be shunned for it, though you may be challenged! You are free to question and look at both sides of the fence without being shoved off to one side or the other.
Spainards love to argue, and sometimes this is mistaken for anger. But I've found that no matter how angry the arguement gets in the bar with the 80 yr old man who is trying to tell you his thoughts on the latest news, he still might buy you a beer and shake your hand when it's over. Not to mention he'll be there the next day to go at it again if your up for it!

[Edith]

In forums, topics like this ALWAYS turn into Bush-bashing sessions. (...)They do not define the American. They just make liberals really upset or really happy >:D.

There are some liberals who do not fall into this trap. There is more to America than Mr. Bush. ;)

[Brian]

When a President, senator, or School board member says something contridictory to what they do they should be questioned. Lately it seems that we in the USA have forgotton that it's ok to make mistakes, and to admit them, and to sometimes challenge even those people that you support, when they make a mistake.


An excellent point. In just about every arena of life, we've forgotten how to forgive.


Spainards love to argue, and sometimes this is mistaken for anger. But I've found that no matter how angry the arguement gets in the bar with the 80 yr old man who is trying to tell you his thoughts on the latest news, he still might buy you a beer and shake your hand when it's over. Not to mention he'll be there the next day to go at it again if your up for it!

Reason #1,732 to love Spain!

[Marina]

Hi thismortalcoil,

Sorry for hijacking the thread with different matters.

First of all I'd like to tell you that Spanish people in general like speaking to/meeting people from the States, and as we see a lot of your country in films & series, people are usually genuinilly curious about your culture and way of life, but I won't deny that there is a good portion of Spaniards that are anti-bush and that is a matter people are going to ask you about at some point, as I did. Most of the times people won't be critical on you, they just want to undesrtad what's going on in the States and what people think about political matters. And as Catavino said this things are openly spoken/discussed in Spain, which might be a cultural clash to you begin with.

One more thing, I've never heard anyone to describe Americans as lazy or selfish.


I'm sure you will make a great job as Ambassador!!!

Keep in touch and let us know what your impressions are.
Marina.

[ValenciaSon]

Reason #1,732 to love Spain![/quote]




I wish it weren't such a faux pas to have a healthy debate on politics in the US. I have to agree that having this as an accepted practice in social situations is something I like about Spain. I was once frowned upon in my neighborhood listserve for wanting to bring up politics in discussion as opposed to the typical topic like "does anyone know a good plumber?" or "does anyone want to start a quilting club?".

I know the big concern is that dipping into politics leads to the discussion regressing into ad hominim attacks and other such uncivil behaviors. How is it that in Spain, that isn't a concern?

[Brian]

Reason #1,732 to love Spain!

I know the big concern is that dipping into politics leads to the discussion regressing into ad hominim attacks and other such uncivil behaviors. How is it that in Spain, that isn't a concern?[/quote]

An excellent point. I suppose that Americans are too afraid of being labelled as being Politically Incorrect.

[Alan]

Because Europeans are in general able to have heated arguments over dinner and leave the table the best of friends. A different opinion is not taken as a personal attack and rather is taken for what it is: a different opinion.

I say in general because not all of Europe is like that; the British are not particularly good at having political discussions, whether it's through lack of interest or lack of desire to upset someone.

[jww41005]

Meanwhile I'll head off to Benaldamena and try to convice the Spanish locals that some Brits drink less than 20 pints on a night out.

Yes!

An age old opinion that the Spaniards have about the Brits. Lets have a look at the reasons why:

1. Thanks to the conversion rate the cheap beer just has to be drunk.

2. A holiday on the coast is probably the cheapest holiday in Europe, which attracts the yobs/drunks/catetos from Britain, and elsewhere.

3. Teenages on a cheap holiday for the first time without their parents. Out of control. LETS DRINK ALL THE CHEAP BEER!!!!!!!!

4. As a matter of fact Spain consumes more alcohol than Britain!

One more point, I've lived in Spain for over 15 years and during all this time my in-laws have always been under the opinion that I drink far too much:confused:

Cheers

John

[gary]

I wish it weren't such a faux pas to have a healthy debate on politics in the US. I have to agree that having this as an accepted practice in social situations is something I like about Spain. I was once frowned upon in my neighborhood listserve for wanting to bring up politics in discussion as opposed to the typical topic like "does anyone know a good plumber?" or "does anyone want to start a quilting club?".

I know the big concern is that dipping into politics leads to the discussion regressing into ad hominim attacks and other such uncivil behaviors. How is it that in Spain, that isn't a concern?

The more comfortable a society becomes the less interested they seem to be in politics - discuss.....

[Edith]

The more comfortable a society becomes the less interested they seem to be in politics - discuss.....

Personally, I'm very interested in world politics, but sometimes it's just a relief not having to discuss these big issues all the time... this forum is a refuge for people who just want to relax and to enjoy talking about Spain and Spanish culture. :)

There are lots of other forums where we can talk about B**h, I**q, I****l , P*******e or the M****e E**t in general! ;D ;)

[gary]

Personally, I'm very interested in world politics, but sometimes it's just a relief not having to discuss these big issues all the time... this forum is a refuge for people who just want to relax and to enjoy talking about Spain and Spanish culture. :)

There are lots of other forums where we can talk about B**h, I**q, I****l , P*******e or the M****e E**t in general! ;D ;)
well i have opinions about politics but i certainly am in no hurry to spend my life typing them out on a forum mainly because its more fun just interacting with the crowd here on NFS and secondly because it wont make a rats arse difference - my grandad had it taped - whoever you vote for the government gets in...

the post was atoungue in cheek cynical statement of what i perceive to be the case not a real invitation to discuss any of the things - it took me a minute to work out the asterisks!!!

[Edith]

well i have opinions about politics but i certainly am in no hurry to spend my life typing them out on a forum mainly because its more fun just interacting with the crowd here on NFS and secondly because it wont make a rats arse difference - my grandad had it taped - whoever you vote for the government gets in...

That is the beauty of this place - it's so relaxed! I've seen forums disappear because of the endless trench wars being fought there, and although there is nothing wrong with a healthy debate people tend to get very excited over 'certain issues' these days. ;) That's why I used all the asterisks! :D You say one of these words out loud and people begin arguing right away! ;-)

[richardksa]

I say in general because not all of Europe is like that; the British are not particularly good at having political discussions, whether it's through lack of interest or lack of desire to upset someone.

You have never sat round my dining table.http://qsmile.com/qsimages/122.gif Maybe I know why I feel so at home in Spain.