Mayor of Madrid performs his first gay wedding

[Brian]

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/07/29/madrid/1154136028.html

Gallardón seems to be taking a lot of flack for having performed his first gay wedding in Madrid, although it's been legal for a year in Spain.

[Edith]

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/07/29/madrid/1154136028.html

Gallardón seems to be taking a lot of flack for having performed his first gay wedding in Madrid, although it's been legal for a year in Spain.

I think what he did was great, especially if we take his conservative background into consideration.

[Brian]

I think what he did was great, especially if we take his conservative background into consideration.

His political colleagues don't think that it's so great (and neither do I, but that's beside the point). For Gallardón, it's probably political suicide.

[ValenciaSon]

I wish the US was as tolerant as Spain is.

[Brian]

I wish the US was as tolerant as Spain is.

I think that the East and West coasts of the US are quite tolerant. It's those people who live in the Midwest who aren't so understanding. ;D

[Edith]

I wish the US was as tolerant as Spain is.

Actually, Spain is one of four countries in the world where same-sex marriages are being performed on a nationwide basis. The other three countries are Canada, Belgium, and the Netherlands; South Africa will probably be next. I greatly admire Spain for having implemented so many social reforms after the death of Franco.

Here is some Wikipedia info on same-sex marriages in Spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Spain

[ValenciaSon]

Actually, Spain is one of four countries in the world where same-sex marriages are being performed on a nationwide basis. The other three countries are Canada, Belgium, and the Netherlands; South Africa will probably be next. I greatly admire Spain for having implemented so many social reforms after the death of Franco.

Here is some Wikipedia info on same-sex marriages in Spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Spain

Edita, que informativa tu eres! Gracias.

[Edith]

Edita, que informativa tu eres! Gracias.

¡De nada! Me encanta navegar la red para buscar cosas interesantes. :D

[Brian]

Here is some Wikipedia info on same-sex marriages in Spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Spain

Thank you for the vínculo!

[Edith]

Thank you for the vínculo!

¡No hay de qué! :)

[osvaldo]

His political colleagues don't think that it's so great (and neither do I, but that's beside the point). For Gallardón, it's probably political suicide.

Brian,

I disagree with you. The Spanish parliament voted for it, and the majority of people in Spain support it. Also, Madrid has a very large gay population with a great deal of political clout, so don't underestimate the real facts.

In addition, it's going to happen in the U.S. sooner or later, so for those who are opposed to the idea - get used to it!

I pay my taxes just like everyone else, and as such, deserve to have the same rights as heterosexual couples. I applaud Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands & Spain for having the courage to stand up for the rights of all of it's citizens!

[Bolboreta]

I think that the East and West coasts of the US are quite tolerant. It's those people who live in the Midwest who aren't so understanding. ;D
And here I thought Michigan was part of the Midwest... :rolleyes: My high school there was a thousand times more tolerant than the one I went to in Spain (it was also bigger, so I guess that makes a difference), and I went around wearing rainbow stuff and holding hands with my best friend without getting into trouble. Did I mention that half of the students were Muslims, to boot?

I really don't get the opposition to gay marriage. Straight people can still get married. You can't defend the "santity of an institution" when civil marriages have been legal for years (and called marriages, thankyouverymuch). People who think it promotes homosexuality and there'll be more gay people if it's legal are simply delusional. "Live and let live", right? There are so many things I don't agree with... but I'm not trying to stop them, because it's not my place to judge others.

[Brian]

Brian,

I disagree with you. The Spanish parliament voted for it, and the majority of people in Spain support it. Also, Madrid has a very large gay population with a great deal of political clout, so don't underestimate the real facts.

It's ok to disagree, but you can't ignore the fact that his political allies are aghast over the situation, and certainly the conservatives who backed him may not continue their support of him.


In addition, it's going to happen in the U.S. sooner or later, so for those who are opposed to the idea - get used to it!


Based on what facts? How can you make that statement with such certainty? Perhaps a few more states will approve it, but it would surprise me greatly to see such legislation passed in conservative states, at least not in our lifetimes.

Please understand that I'm not bashing people who practice homosexuality. It's their choice, and it's their life. I personally don't agree with their choice, but then, I don't tell them how to live their life.

[Brian]

And here I thought Michigan was part of the Midwest... :rolleyes: My high school there was a thousand times more tolerant than the one I went to in Spain (it was also bigger, so I guess that makes a difference), and I went around wearing rainbow stuff and holding hands with my best friend without getting into trouble. Did I mention that half of the students were Muslims, to boot?

Certainly, the younger generation is much more tolerant toward homosexuality than, say, in the last 20 years.

[ValenciaSon]

I think it is a matter of time before the US legalizes gay marriage in all 50 states. There will be states that will resist and take longer but eventually it will happen as a bill or bills will be passed which will have a rider or riders attached and eventually gay marriage will be legal.

Anyway, the pendulum is overdue to swing in the opposite direction in the US political landscape and as such, legislation that is more progressive and not steeped in conservative, religious right rhetoric will finally take place.:thumbs-up:

[osvaldo]

[QUOTE=Brian]It's ok to disagree, but you can't ignore the fact that his political allies are aghast over the situation, and certainly the conservatives who backed him may not continue their support of him.

I'll give you that, but apparently he doesn't care because he went against his parties wishes. I'm sure that you'll agree that it took guts to do what he did, and for that he needs to be commended - he's a true leader in every sense of the word!

[osvaldo]

Based on what facts? How can you make that statement with such certainty? Perhaps a few more states will approve it, but it would surprise me greatly to see such legislation passed in conservative states, at least not in our lifetimes.

Because it's about equality, fairness and human rights, and we will not stop until the bill is passed -- Of that I am most certain.

¿How can you be so certain that it won't? ¿And based on what facts?

Remember, "conservatives" will not rule forever.

[Brian]

Based on what facts? How can you make that statement with such certainty? Perhaps a few more states will approve it, but it would surprise me greatly to see such legislation passed in conservative states, at least not in our lifetimes.

Because it's about equality, fairness and human rights, and we will not stop until the bill is passed -- Of that I am most certain.

¿How can you be so certain that it won't? ¿And based on what facts?

Remember, "conservatives" will not rule forever.

Your label, "conservatives," is not a dirty word. :o

It's obvious that we're coming from opposite ends of the spectrum, idealogically, so I'll just agree to disagree. It's kind of pointless to attempt to dissuade one another, as your arguments will be lost on me, as will mine to you.

[osvaldo]

Please understand that I'm not bashing people who practice homosexuality. It's their choice, and it's their life. I personally don't agree with their choice, but then, I don't tell them how to live their life.[/QUOTE]


Brian,

This entire quote is very hard to understand. Please don't misunderstand me, but you sound like Oral Roberts - a very scary dude!

In any context, "practicing homosexual", "It's their choice", will almost always be misconstrued as insulting & insensitive.

Now, can we please move on to happier topics? Please!

[osvaldo]

Your label, "conservatives," is not a dirty word. :o

It's obvious that we're coming from opposite ends of the spectrum, idealogically, so I'll just agree to disagree. It's kind of pointless to attempt to dissuade one another, as your arguments will be lost on me, as will mine to you.

I never said conservative was a dirty word. And yes, this is pointless!

[Brian]

Brian,

This entire quote is very hard to understand. Please don't misunderstand me, but you sound like Oral Roberts - a very scary dude!

In any context, "practicing homosexual", "It's their choice", will almost always be misconstrued as insulting & insensitive.

Now, can we please move on to happier topics? Please!

It's hard for you to comprehend because we are of a different viewpoint. It's equally difficult for me to understand yours.

I could equally say that you are being insensitive by comparing me to Oral Roberts, or by trampling the views of conservatives as if they were from Planet Z.

And it's quite unfair for you to judge me without knowing me. I'm no homophobic gay-basher. Perhaps I'm an ignorant, uneducated hick, but rest assured, I meant no offense by my choice of words.

And yes, I'd be quite happy to move on to other topics.

[osvaldo]

That's cool. And I'm sorry if I insulted you, it's obviously a very hot topic.

Hey, which city do you prefer, Barcelona or Madrid?

[Brian]

That's cool. And I'm sorry if I insulted you, it's obviously a very hot topic.

Hey, which city do you prefer, Barcelona or Madrid?

:)

I've never been to Barcelona, honestly, but I love Madrid. It's one of the most incredible cities that I've visited. I studied at the University for one semester during my Junior year. It was one of the best experiences of my life.

The next time we visit the fam in Valencia, we plan to take a roadrip up the coast to see what I've been missing all these years.

[osvaldo]

I would have to say that Madrid is probably my favorite, because it's very Spanish. Barcelona feels like you're in a completely different country, but it's a very happening city.

On my next, I plan to visit Valencia -- I hear it's a beautiful.

[Brian]

I would have to say that Madrid is probably my favorite, because it's very Spanish. Barcelona feels like you're in a completely different country, but it's a very happening city.

On my next, I plan to visit Valencia -- I hear it's a beautiful.

Valencia is indeed beautiful. The only know is that the centro feels like a blasting furnace in the Summer. Without air conditioning, it can be very uncomfortable with the humidity.

I'm not certain about the nightlife there, but I can say that there is a myriad of cultural opportunity there.

[osvaldo]

I think with the Americas cup, and all of the works by Calatrava, Valencia is going to become as popular as Madrid & Barcelona.

Anyway, you have a good evening.

[ValenciaSon]

[quote=Brian]It's hard for you to comprehend because we are of a different viewpoint. It's equally difficult for me to understand yours.

I could equally say that you are being insensitive by comparing me to Oral Roberts, or by trampling the views of conservatives as if they were from Planet Z.



What's wrong with planet Z? Don't be so geocentric!:rolleyes:

[catavino]

I'm starting to love this forum for it's polite discussions that you can't find elsewhere on the web.

Conservative is not a dirty word, just some very scary people have associated it with dirtiness. Likewise for liberals.

Gay marriage here in Spain is a non issue that the right wing politicians are trying to make a big deal about. Most people care less and less about this, and those that do care, either way, are a minority. I think Spain's smart enough to know that when they vote this issue will not affect others lives as much as water conservation and crime will. The conservatives are trying to raise the issue as an issue making it more important than it really is.

In the states it will come but not for awhile. The problem I have is this. I had a friend who was in his late 70's living in a nursing home. He had a friend also in her late seventies. They were friends, but they realized that by marrying they could both help the other when one of them died by giving their pension to the other one. So they got married, lived separately and lived secure in the knowledge that their best friend could help them make health care decisions, and that they would be helping the other one a bit when they died. Love was there but only as friends.

On the other hand the so called sanctity of marriage that people talk about seems silly when one looks at celebrity marriages or even marriages closer to home that come from convenience not love.

Why can't my friends who are gay and have been together for longer than I've been with my wife, enjoy the same rights as I do? Are they lesser people? BTW marriage is a religious idea. The government should not have a role in it. If your church says gay marriage is wrong, fine, but the government is not a church. The government on the other hand should regulate the tax, legal property transfer, and pensions aspect of it. For this they need to recognize when two people have made a life long commitment regardless of sex it may be to their benefit to help regulate that union. Think of the marriage tax dollars they could earn!

An interesting fact is that until the early 20th century marriage because of love was an anomaly. In government it was only for tax purposes, and in churches it was to join families that wanted to share land and wealth. In fact in the past lovers were kept separate from wives and husbands. While I benefit from and enjoy the fact that marriage and love are linked today, we fail to realize that marriage is not something fixed in time, but rather a morphing and ever changing idea. Just like the fact that at one time the Dem's were conservative, and the Republicans were liberal, things change.

To debate this issue, which has never been proven to affect anyone in a negative way, seems trite when compared to the violence in the middle-east and with the war in Iraq.

Governments are there to protect the people. To help the poor become part of a working society and to prevent people less honorable from taking advantage of the weak. To defend borders, to build roads, and to offer clean water, electricity, enforce law in the streets and much much more. I don't think they have the right to tell me how to love, how to care, or who to worship. My marriage is based on teamwork and if my teammate is a guy or a girl, as long as that teamwork helps contribute to making the world a better place, it doesn't really matter.

Who you fall in love with is not a choice, I know this first hand. It is rather a fact of life, and life is something that no one fully understands. You can sit here now and tell me how the world is, but the world in 10, 20, 30 years will be telling you that oh, wait there is another way to look at, how silly could we have been. Smoking used to be healthy, the moon used to be made of cheese, black people used to be less then human, but we learned. People are people and a persons sexual orientation is not really a concern to me. What does matter is if you are nice, compassionate, loving, helpful, and honest.

When the government stops wasting my time and money debating about the state of marriage and starts tackling issues that affect me directly then I'll be happy. On the other hand if the government is right and Gay marriage brings about the end of civil society well then I guess I'll have to eat crow. But here in Spain, it's a non-issue and people seem to still be moral well rounded citizens of the world.

my 2 cents and a little extra

[Edith]

Great post, Catavino! I agree with most of what you say.

[Pepino]

Me too Edith! (except that I agree with ALL of it! hehe). I've only just started reading this particular thread today, and as I worked through it, a post of humongous proportions was bubbling up in my mind. I have to say that Catavino has put it far more eloquently than I could, so the overstretched elastic band in my brain can relax again. :eek:

One little sub-issue though, that's cropped up here in England since gay civil partnerships (can't call them "marriages" because people complain :o ) were made legal last December, is that many heterosexual couples are now also demanding non-religous civil partnerships of their own so they can get all the legal advantages of a marriage without the actual marriage itself.

This seems crazy to me as, if you're straight, and you don't want to involve God in your marriage then you already have the option (and have had for years) of a Registry Office wedding with no mention of Him whatsoever, but gay men and women haven't had anything like this right until recently, so I think the legalisation of gay marriage/partnerships is purely another "wrong" put right which we should all be quietly thankful for and then get on with living our own lives, whether we ever intend taking advantage of the facility or not.

[Edith]

Come to think of it, I agree with everything too after re-reading the phrase which gave me some trouble because at first I didn't get what Catavino meant:

Conservative is not a dirty word, just some very scary people have associated it with dirtiness. Likewise for liberals.

Seems like Spain has made huge progress compared to some other European countries which are still struggling with issues of equality and emancipation as far as gays are concerned. It would be interesting to know why this happened in Spain and not in Italy, for instance. Perhaps the Spanish people are more inclined to believe in individual freedom, who knows.

[greytop]

I think many of the objections I've seen about Spain's gay marriages could have been set aside if they had not used the term marriage (as happened in UK with civil partnership as Pepino mentioned). There were certainly reports from the Encuentro Mundial de la Familia in Valencia expressing the Catholic dislike of this use of "marriage" that they consider should only be used to promote a stable relationship between man and woman.
Other religions think likewise so why not take account of their feelings and still provide the same stability for homosexual relationships?
They on the other hand must be prepared to allow those not of their faith to live the way they want to - by all means SAY you don't like it but unless it directly affects you leave it at that.
With most developed occidental countries having ever increasing divorce rates, it does not seem that the present concept of a family unit based on long term marriage works very well anyway. Maybe it's time for a radical re-think?

[Edith]

They on the other hand must be prepared to allow those not of their faith to live the way they want to

Exactly! Live and let live, that's what it's all about.

[osvaldo]

my 2 cents and a little extra[/QUOTE]

Catavino,
:thumbs-up:, ;D , ;)!
I'm at a loss for words.
Thank you!

[catavino]

my 2 cents and a little extra
Catavino,
:thumbs-up:, ;D , ;)!
I'm at a loss for words.
Thank you![/quote]

no problem, felt it needed to be said, that's all

[Ben]

Wow, things were getting a bit heated there for a while! Looks like Catavino hit a few nails on the head too, muy bien.

All the issues above aside, my reaction to hearing about Gallardon performing this marriage was 'well done'. In the end I think it will only harm the bishops that complained so bitterly, once again reinforcing the idea in Spanish minds that the Catholic church is outdated and complaining about things it should just learn to accept. I think it won't harm Gallardon's political career in the slightest, in fact quite the opposite might be the case - he will gain respect for moving forward against the tide of backward looking conservatives that do the PPs image so much harm. He is a very intelligent guy, and he wouldn't have done it if it was really going to cause him any problems in the future.

[Brian]

Wow, things were getting a bit heated there for a while!

Passionate discussion, definitely, but as NFS is wont to be, quite amicable in the end. It can be a controversial topic.

[Marina]

Just a couple of comments:
On one hand PP members ALWAYS stick to their party opinion, so Gallardón action was extremely "strong" considering the situation. On the other hand, as Ben said, Gallardón is very intelligent and if he has conducted this marriage is because he knew it wouldn't have any bad consecuences. In fact he must be one of the few members of the PP party that realises that unless they change their attitude towards the citiziens they will have no chance to get the power back.

By the way, when Gallardón was elected Madrid mayor lots of newspapers commented on that he was preparing his way to be presented as the next PP candidate to the Presidential elections.