Decision to Move to Spain (for a while)

[Alan]

Well, I thought I would post it up here. I have decided to move to Spain for a period of around 6 months as a compromise between moving permanently and staying with my girlfriend. If I move and don't like it, then my girlfriend is here, waiting for me. If I decide that I can't move back, then, well I don't know. I suppose that's an ugly decision that I'll have to make when I return to Scotland. But I need to do it at some point: otherwise I'll never know and could regret it. Thinking back on it, I should have moved to Spain to spend some time there when I was in university. I had the opportunity to study for a year in Spain and chose to study business instead. Regret is a funny thing. I do regret not going to Spain when I could have done it without any responsibility, but then I would never have met my girlfriend; and I would not change that for the world.

So yes, this has been the big thing that has stopped me so far. Understandable, I think. It has held me back for a good while now, but I feel like I need to do it, or else I will regret it later and probably blame her for it, which is just not fair. I wish I could go to Spain with her, but she has her own career plans. A consequence of living in the 21st century :) I want her to do what she can do and do well, of course. I'm secretly hoping that she'll move out to Spain eventually, I suppose.


For my six month stay in Spain, I need to figure out a few things. I will definitely move to the Valencia/Murcia/Andalucía region. It's a large region of Spain and I need to find work and a place to stay (any advice or information is very much appreciated!). I have, as I have previously posted, completed a Masters degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and, although I'm not sure that I want to continue in this field, I need a job. Ben and others have suggested teaching English as an option before I'm fluent in Spanish, but I want to be open to other options. I have read that Spain has one of the largest unemployment ratios in Europe and am worried that I won't be able to find a job. Am I being a little silly?


This will be the first time I have moved out from my parents' house. I'm 24 (thanks for the automated birthday wishes, notesfromspain.com), and I feel almost like I am overstaying my welcome, so I would be very pleased to gain some independence. But hey, independence is the same in Spain as in Scotland.


Again, another ramble, but PLEASE give me any advice you can.

[Ben]

This is a brave, wise, and excellent decision. You will definitely find work and we are here to help in any way we can with advice and suggestions. Try to come up with an idea of what you specifically want to know now or might be interested in finding out and post the questions here.

Well done again!!!

So, the first big question is, when do you plan to make the move?

[Alan]

Plans are scarce right now, but I reckon around October/November. I'm not one of these people who are moving for the weather! :)

[Marina]

Congratulations Alan, I hope you like it and you convince your lady to come along;)

[ValenciaSon]

Way to Carpe Diem Alan! I wish you the best and hope you are successful con tu novia :thumbs-up:

[timg]

Well done, that man. Do it now while you can.

[Marbella]

Alan,

Out of interest, what is that Spain will offer you that the UK can't? What are your motives and do you have a long term plan for your life (buy a property, start a family, pursue a career) or do you just want to see where life takes you?

Remember Spanish salaries are low and the cost of living is rising. Seems there is an inbalance in the Spanish economy which makes it difficult for people trying to climb the property ladder. Perhaps you have some savings and this won't be a problem.

I'd recommend using the 6 months you have planned in Spain to take an official qualification in Spanish (DELE (http://www.dele.org/) ?) so you have something to show a future employer. I suppose you can treat it as a kind of gap year at the end of your studies which is perfectly reasonable but working life outside of bar work and teaching English is competitive and you'll not want to get left behind the job market with a shaky CV. Teaching English is ok but it's not really going to improve your Spanish is it? Yes you could go to the bar at night and try to talk to Spanish people but it's not the same.

There is a radio extract on this subject from this morning's Today (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_abroad_20060803.ram) programme. Personally I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than live with this lot on the Costa del Sol but each to their own.

[Ben]

In response to Marbellas post above, which makes some very sensible points:

1. Using the time to do the Dele exam is a very good idea, it will really help improve your Spanish, especially coupled with some intercambios.

2. English teaching may not improve your Spanish but it doesn't hinder it - I went from zero to very fluent in 9 months while working as an English teacher throughout. Plus being a low level English teacher to start with as a way of making some cash is not a professional error. Of the people who started teaching at the same time as me, one now is an IT manager at Accenture in Spain, another a Director of Studies in a prestigious Madrid language academy, I work as a freelance translator (etc... :)) - so yes the job market here is competitive but it is as wide as it is in the UK and probably more so than Northern Scotland.

3. do you just want to see where life takes you?
That is a path that at your age I think is highly recommendable. You've made this decision, let life take you along for the ride for a while. Make the most of your time here and see what happens, but don't worry too much about mortgages just yet... plenty of time for that later.

Just my two cents on Marbella's very reasonable post!

[Ben]

p.s. great radio program! Madre mia....

[Marbella]

I do hope it works out and Alan is young enough to recover if it doesn't.

I didn't intend to disparage English teaching (did it myself when I was there and would do it again, a fine way to make some cash!) but I see a bloke who has little or no work experience, has been studying for a long time and is now highly qualified and I don't want him to throw all that away just because Spanish life seems more attractive when you are on holiday. I quite admire his girlfriend's resolve really in having a definite plan about her working life. Spain is not without its problems and if you earn good money in the UK you can go to Spain on holiday as often as you want. I don't mind playing the boring old fart role on this forum just to give some balance to the debate. Spanish social life is great but inescapably there are the same old practicalities of life that one day you have to face up to - and it's not getting any easier.

The radio clip from Fuengirola I just found horrific. The English guy who spoke Spanish in a kind of p1ss taking way is the archetypal Brit living abroad who I try to avoid at all costs. I know they bring a lot to the economy down there but what a nauseating bunch they sounded.

[Steve W]

I second all of the above. A great decision which you will not regret, whatever the end result. Doing something wrong is better than doing nothing.

As for work, money etc life is hard everywhere, and one of my reasons for going (Monday!) is that even with an above average wage and some savings, a property in London is out of the question. I thought, if I can't get any richer, I may as well get happier.

I hate job hunting at the best of times, so the thought of doing it in a foreign language is terrifying, but I'm going to trust in my skills and the positive feeling of moving forward.

The 6 months will fly by. Good luck enjoy new things.

[Marina]

I agree with Marbella that the salaries are low compared to the UK, however I think Alan has lots to offer to a Spanish IT company. At the moment as salaries are low but there is lot of work people are rotating a lot to try to improve their salaries, so companies are starting to have a real problem finding people when they need them. Also remember that lots of companies work in international projects where all documents and meetings are held in english and remember that the percentage of bilingual spanish is not really high. So I really think that Alan is more in advantage than you think. Worry not!!!
Just try to improve your spanish as much as possible, but as an example where I work now there is an Irish guy who doesn't speak that much Spanish yet, two Portuguese and many Italians. So the Spanish is not the real problem.

[Marbella]

Sorry Alan, I thought you'd just left uni, didn't realise you were in IT.

I've had contact with a couple of IT recruitment agencies recently who recruit from the UK for the Spanish market. It might be worth having a chat with them to see if there is anything going in your field; better to have something lined up before you land in Spain.

Here they are:

http://www.secrecruitment.com/

http://www.quantica.co.uk/content_static/home.asp

Send me a pm if you want a contact name at either of these.

Good luck!

[Marbella]

Another thought if you are considering Andalucia, you could work in Gibraltar and live in Spain. I know these internet gambling companies have been recruiting heavily recently and they pay UK rates:

http://www.888.com/

http://www.victorchandler.com/

http://www.partygaming.com/

http://www.mansion.com/

I've been working down there and you can get from the Spanish border to the office in 15 to 20 minutes walking. The surrounding area in Spain is a bit grim but due for major investment if the plans to internationalise the Gib airport go ahead. There are places like Tarifa within commuting distance or Estepona the other way which has a surprisingly Spanish feel to it. I was in La Linea quite recently and it is much improved but still a bit on the rough side.

[Alan]

Well, at the moment I don't have a long term plan for my life. This is the problem. I've studied engineering for 6 years and the engineering jobs are scarce here. Not that I particularly want to do engineering anyway, but that is another matter. Right now, I have a short term plan to experience another culture and learn another language. This is very useful in any field. It's also a little bit of your option c, just to see where life takes me. But not too much; the people who see where life takes them usually end up in dead-end jobs that they hate. Not me.


I'm not actually in IT (and have just left uni), but my degree is known for its flexibility, and graduates go on to do a wide variety of things, including of course, IT. I have covered several programming languages and am comfortable with computers. I'm using Linux right now.

Remember Spanish salaries are low and the cost of living is rising. Seems there is an inbalance in the Spanish economy which makes it difficult for people trying to climb the property ladder. Perhaps you have some savings and this won't be a problem.


Re salaries: Spanish salaries are low, yes. I've been looking at jobs and am amazed at just how low. Yet, I still want to go. The salary I can expect in pounds here, I can expect in Euros in Spain. But then, the cost of living is lower. It doesn't account for the difference, I know, but it's not as bad as the difference in salaries makes out. I do have some savings and could probably afford to live in Spain for 6 months even without working. But I don't want to do that. I want to return with as little a dent in it as possible.


Another point to make is that there is also a pay difference between Scotland and England. But if it were all about the money I would just go to England. But, you know, it's difficult to climb the property ladder here too. And in England. In fact, in most of Europe, this is a difficult thing to do. I could probably climb the Polish property ladder (which is probably not a bad idea).

“I'd recommend using the 6 months you have planned in Spain to take an official qualification in Spanish (DELE (http://www.dele.org/) ?)”


I like this idea. I probably will do something like that as well as Ben's suggestion of intercambioing. Teaching English is not the ideal job for me, but I would prefer it to bar work. Ideally I would like to get a job in an office environment where people could use my high level of English as well as my technical skills. And I would like to stay as far away from the Blackpool-abroad resorts as possible. I'd say it is very possible to live in these places without any Spanish at all or even absorbing the Spanish way of life. That just takes away the point of going in the first place. I'm not going for sun. I need to listen to the Today programme you're referring to to get their take on it, but I did read something on the BBC today about the number of British people moving abroad. It was very interesting and relevant (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5237236.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5237236.stm))!


“I don't want him to throw all that away just because Spanish life seems more attractive when you are on holiday”


Marbella, everything you have said so far has been sensible and I really do appreciate your advice, but I am also sensible and I find this quote (in the nicest possible way) a bit insulting. I fully intend to get relevant work experience if possible, but even if I don't, it's six months during which time I will learn another language and new skills; even if it's just presentation skills from teaching English. I know you're playing devil's advocate to a degree, but I am thinking of all these things :) One of the reasons I want to dip my toes in the water is to see what life in Spain is like because, as you correctly point out, I have only ever been there on holiday. And it's different to live and work there. I'm prepared for that. I have a friend who moved out to Italy with his wife and kid, permanently with all their belongings, only to move back before four months had passed. It's very possible that I will do the same.


“If I can't get any richer, I may as well get happier.”


This pretty much sums up my attitude. I like the way of life in Spain. For about 5 months of the year here, we get up, climb into a car and drive through the rain in the dark to work. When work has finished, we get back into the car and drive back home in the dark. And it's so depressing when that's all there is to life. We have oven food for dinner because it's so much cheaper and easier than fresh food and we go to bed only to do the same thing the next day.


Now, I know I said I'm not going for the weather, but I am going for the outdoor lifestyle. I want to drink coffee on my balcony and read. I want to eat outside. I want to know what kind of weather to expect for that day so I can dress appropriately (Scotland can have four seasons in one day). I want to experience a place that has not sold-out to large companies and where it is possible to buy a coffee for less than £2. I want to have a main meal in the middle of the day when I need the food instead of shoving an overpriced sandwich into my mouth at my desk. And finally, I want to be able to buy a cold drink when I want a cold drink (I had to visit five shops the other day to buy a cold bottle of water). These are all small things that have nothing to do with salary or property prices but make life so much better.


Thanks to Marina for the positive words. I'm sure that English is worth a lot in Spain, but there must be many people already living in Spain who have English as their mother tongue. I'm sure I need more than that to get a good job! But if your work is like everywhere else, maybe I won't have such a big problem. I do note that almost every job advertised asks for a “nivel alto de inglés” so it must be worth something.


Thanks to everyone for all the leads. I'm sure I'll contact you about them!


Any more advice is very welcome, especially if it's to make sure I've thought it all through (thanks Marbella).

[Alan]

I just wanted to add a link. This is the BBC's "Have your Say" page from the above story. It's quite interesting to read through it and I agree with most of the opinions about the drudgery of UK life etc :)

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=2971&&&edition=1&ttl=20060803165316

[Marbella]

...and I find this quote (in the nicest possible way) a bit insulting. ... I know you're playing devil's advocate to a degree, but I am thinking of all these things :)

No insult intended Alan. Yes, I am playing in a way but definitely not to disuade you from what could be a rewarding, life-changing experience. Treat it as a kindly test of your resolve and planning, delivered with all the best intentions, that's all. :)

[Pepino]

Even though I haven't actually made the move to Spain yet (although I'm all set to go on 13/9 this year), I understand Alan's retisence about the move. It a big change and one not to take lightly, but with the right attitude, which Alan clearly has, (and hopefully I do too :confused:) then the opportunities are out there.

I'm a real risk-avoider by nature and it's taken me ages to pluck up the courage to move abroad, but I'm already practically sat in a puddle of excitement about my move (not literally of course.... oh, hang on..... oh no... ;) ) but over the last few months, about a million little things (good and bad) have cluncked and clicked into place that are saying to me, "Oh for God's sake, stop whinging to yourself and just go...!".

I'm lucky enough to work for a company that has an office in Barcelona, and I'm doubly lucky that my job is 100% portable (thanks to my friend and yours, Mr Internet). I have thought about breaking away from my current company (as we're not doing that great at the moment) and getting myself a local job in BCN, but that risk-avoiding gland at the back of my brain tells me to play it safe for now.

However, that didn't stop me having a telephone interview with a guy today for an IT job in Spain. Not sure if I'll go for it though, as the guys in my current company's Spanish office have done so much for me recently with all the planning, apartments etc, that I don't think I could be ungrateful enough to turn round and say "I'm still coming, but not to work with you". They're only a small team and are constantly overlooked by the rest of the company back in the UK, so they seem desperately excited that someone from Head Office actually wants to come and help them out on their own turf. (They don't seem to see that there's a lot more in it for me! hehe)

OK, I'm rambling now. My big move date is getting closer and all my mates are sick of hearing about it so this has turned into a theraputic post from me today! hehe :rolleyes: . I only started it with the intention to wish Alan the best. Hope all goes well for you and I'd be interested to hear more about how your job plans develop.

[Catica]

I moved to Prague to live for a year when I was 24. My grandmother had read about Americans in Prague in National Geographic and thought, since my degree was in theater and that marriage was not in my near future, that my future in the U.S. looked rather grim. So she paid my way.

She was wrong that life would be "easy" for me. I had no career plans but a degree in Theater. I canot find other words to describe just how under-prepared I was. And Czech isn't the most easy of languages to pick up.

In her forgiveable arrogance, I think my grandmother believed that as an American I had something to offer the Czech Republic. Well, it was the complete opposite. I have no idea what I brought to that country aside from wide-eyed curiosity, or maybe it was fear. Instead, I left a completely changed person. I learned more about myself than I realized was even possible. I learned another language and another way of life because I had no choice. These things change you deep to the core. So it was the most difficult and best experience of my life.

And by the way, you do have a plan. Maybe not a long term plan, but you have a plan. This is your next step, that's all. What else can we do in this life, anyway. "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans," sang John Lennon. That's true, isn't it?

[Catica]

As for work, money etc life is hard everywhere, and one of my reasons for going (Monday!) is that even with an above average wage and some savings, a property in London is out of the question. I thought, if I can't get any richer, I may as well get happier.

I hate job hunting at the best of times, so the thought of doing it in a foreign language is terrifying, but I'm going to trust in my skills and the positive feeling of moving forward.

This is all so very exciting I can hardly contain myself. It's pretty cool being able to live vicariously through everyone's adventures. I hope you (and everyone moving) keep us all posted in this big change!

[Steve W]

I'm glad to provide some vicarious excitement for you guys :o
I will be posting some photos on the Flickr group when I get going.

Pepino, when you get settled we'll have to meet up and compare notes. I'm very jealous of you with a job to go to.

I've been chatting away on instant messenger with my future flatmates, and that really does help with the language. My brain has to think quickly.

[Pepino]

Cool, suits me! I have been known to indulge in the occasional copita o dos of an evening. ;D

I'll try and send you one of these private message thingys so you'll have my email address. Hold the line caller... :D

[spainaima]

Hi I am Naima

Have a look in this web site : [link removed - see site rules]
it is a web site that could help you to find internships or spanish languages courses in Spain and a lot of things to know the country

Good luck !

[richardksa]

At the risk of repeating what other's have said, I will add my fourpennorth. (It used to be two pennorth, but that's inflation for you.)

Alan, you are one year older than I was when I took that decision to work abroad. A neighbour's son, who had done the same thing gave me some simple advice, (which you are doing anyway, but this is reinforcement.) He said, whatever happened, I had to give it at least six months. During that time you will go from "this is great" to "what the hell am I doing", from "I like my local bar" to "I miss my old pub". My own personal philosophy is, on days when nothing goes right to say, if it's this bad tomorrow I'm gonna quit, BUT do this for three days. By the third day the problem will have disappeared and hopefully replaced with a new feeling of optimism.

Incidentally, having just returned from talking English at twenty spaniards for a week, the engineers are really happy when they find someone who speaks the language of their trade. I spent some happy hours talking to a lady designer of radar systems who said that for her, the conversations she had with me were the best as I understood her work. (Not really blowing my own trumpet, just giving an example!) So giving lessons to engineers is a real possibility.

And all you guys who are moving are making me mad with jealosy. I'm ready to move as soon as I can sell the English property, but no one is buying. I asked every one of my twenty Spaniards where was the best place to live and got twenty different replies. So I intend to spend some time exploring. Anywhere within two hours of Barajas is good.

[gary]

Good decision, Alan

Thousands of people cross europe every year to live in this country. Many of them have no English, no money and little education. They all survive and many thrive.

The will to win is all you need....

When my daughter left home I told her that you'll know when youve hit rock botton because youll be sitting on your own, by the light of a candle because the electrics run out, youll be cold, lonely maybe crying and will have resorted to eating cold beans out of the can. Thats when you know that you weren't ready to leave home because you cant manage on your own. Its time to go home, be loved and regroup before you have another go. (In the end when she rang it was spaghetti hoops.) There's no shame in using a safety net. I was 20 when I did it and Jenny was 19 when she did it.

You are a little older and hopefully a little more grounded than either I or my daughter were, but the main thing is you

a. made a decision
b. tried

I am sure that in 12 months time you will be in a different place both literally and metaphorically...

Nuff said.....

[richardksa]

At the risk of emlating a well known Python sketch - that's nothing. I was 19, starving hungry because I'd forgotten to buy food and it was a Sunday, and in those days no shops opened on Sundays. I lived in a tawdry bed sit and knew no one. But I was stubborn - still am. Saw it through, learned my lesson, and never looked back. Being stubborn always wins. Sometimes it's good to have the net removed.................And if you tell that to the kids of today.........

[gary]

At the risk of emlating a well known Python sketch - that's nothing. I was 19, starving hungry because I'd forgotten to buy food and it was a Sunday, and in those days no shops opened on Sundays. I lived in a tawdry bed sit and knew no one. But I was stubborn - still am. Saw it through, learned my lesson, and never looked back. Being stubborn always wins. Sometimes it's good to have the net removed.................And if you tell that to the kids of today.........


Its okay for you lumberjacks!!

[Alan]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm beginning to look for jobs now. I'm close to being ready to go, although I don't know where. I had a few odd ends to wrap up here, but within the next month I'll be ready to leave at a moment's notice.