What's the US equivalent of GCSE Spanish?

[Ben]

In the UK there is an official series of examinations called GCSE taken by kids at around age 16. Is there a similar system in the US? What would be the equivalent of GCSE Spanish (or any Intermediate level exam) in the US?

Thanks for any help!

[ValenciaSon]

What is GCSE and what is its purpose?

[Marbella]

General Certificate of Secondary Education

They are the final exams before a student is eligible to drop out of the education system. Many students take exams in 10-12 different subjects. Students choose which subjects they would like to take examinations (GCSEs) in 2 years earlier, math and English are mandatory.

[ValenciaSon]

Our system in the US is way different. Students are required to attend school until about age 16 ( this may vary by state). At that point they would drop out not completing what we call High School. High school runs from the 9th grade (age 15) to the 12th grade (age 18) Most americans complete the 12th grade and when they do thay recive a high school diploma. If they want to continue their education then the university route or trade school is considered. Most universities in the US require an SAT score from the applicant. SAT: scholastic aptitude test is an exam taken by most university bound high school students. The SAT consists of a math and verbal (english, grammar etc..) section. The universities vary by standard for SAT for acceptance. Some universities don't require an SAT at all. The first degree in the US is the bachelor's degree otherwise known as the undergraduate degree. It usually takes 4 years of full time study. If continued education is sought, the student will have to take the LSAT exam for law school, or the MCAT for medical school, or the GMAT for business or the GRE (graduate record examination) for most other degreees. I've probably missed a couple. Any way this portion of the education is called graduate school (except for law and medical, they liked to be referred to as law and medical). Graduate school is roughly 2 years in duration. Afterwards one may continue to pursue a doctorate degree. That has a lot of variance for selection and completion by program.

[Marbella]

Is it legal in all states to drop out at the end of 8th grade? Dropping out is effectively like leaving a school here in the UK with no GCSEs.

I'm aware I'm hijacking Ben's thread here (apologies): the High School Diploma - does that specialise in a particular subject(s) depending on the interests/ambitions of the student or is it a general studies course encompassing many subjects i.e. all high school diplomas are the same.

[Ben]

Thanks Valenciason, so is there an exam level at age 15/16 that people take just before going to high school, or before dropping out? When do you do SAT's?

[ValenciaSon]

Thanks Valenciason, so is there an exam level at age 15/16 that people take just before going to high school, or before dropping out? When do you do SAT's?


For the most part there is no exam to go to high school. The exceptions are the competitive high schools which provide advanced studies and specialize in their content. Otherwise no exam and most high schools are general studies oriented.

The SATs are usually taken about 1 year prior to graduating high school.

[Ben]

Thanks Valenciason

[thismortalcoil]

I'm curious...
So if a student takes this GSCE "before dropping out," does that mean they get the same diploma/certificate they would receive if they continued to the end? In the US we have something called a GED (General Education Diploma) which people can earn after dropping out of high school, but it is not viewed on the same level as a "normal" high school diploma. Is the GSCE similar to this, or is it just a quicker, yet still bonafide way to complete one's education?
I hope that made sense.

[timg]

There is no overall diploma, as such - just the results of whichever exams you have taken. At 16 you take GCSEs and at 18 you take A levels (though I think they have introduced another set of exams at 17 as in intermediate step, even though they don't expect you to leave school at 17). When you have finished your A-levels you have the option of applying to the universities you want. Each university you apply to tells you what A-level results you need to get a place there (these are set individually, based on interviews and/or tests at each university). Note that you apply to the universities before you get your A-level results. If you get the results you need, all fine and dandy. If not, you go through a process called "clearing" where you hunt frantically for a course that might interest and will accept your A-level results.
All very confusing.

[Ashley]

In the UK there is an official series of examinations called GCSE taken by kids at around age 16. Is there a similar system in the US? What would be the equivalent of GCSE Spanish (or any Intermediate level exam) in the US?

I think the best equivalent to a GCSE in Spanish would be the SAT Subject Test in Spanish, from what I've gathered from my friends in the UK who have GCSE and A-level language. For me, the SAT test is easier than the Advanced Placement exam, and I was able to take the SAT Spanish test a year before I could have hoped to pass the AP exam. Of course, both of these tests are completely optional and are really only useful when applying to university. They're totally separate from the school, which issues your high school diploma in the end. You can take years of Spanish at school, from Spanish I-IV, to AP Spanish Language and AP Spanish Literature and never take a national, standardized test in the subject.

[gary]

In the UK there is an official series of examinations called GCSE taken by kids at around age 16. Is there a similar system in the US? What would be the equivalent of GCSE Spanish (or any Intermediate level exam) in the US?

Thanks for any help!
Times have changed

My daughter did GCSE Spanish eight years ago - I was amazed to discover how easy it was. Just a load of situations to learn - in a restaurant, in a hotel, shopping, all conversational stuff. I wondered what had happened to the grammar, the conjugation, the tenses, the subjunctive (aaaargh!) all the suff I did for GCE (a proper exam - no course work just 2 hours of hell at the end of the year). I found out when I enrolled for A level Spanish - there it all was.... of course there has been no dumbing down in education - yeah right!!

[timg]

I found out when I enrolled for A level Spanish - there it all was.... of course there has been no dumbing down in education - yeah right!!
When I did my A-levels at school (mumble years ago) I didn't get very good grades (Cs and Es), yet when I did A-level Spanish as a mumbling fool of an adult in 2001 I got an A. I *definitely* have not got cleverer, so I guess that must say something about the exam.

[richardksa]

As I wondered to a captive teacher recently; both my sons have heaps of GCSEs and a clutch of A levels and I am amazed at their ignorance! How do you achieve an A level in English with a total inability to spell? My youngest did. Luckily for him, I proof read his first job application. Even I wouldn't have employed him. Yet the arguments it caused. "Spelling's not important,Dad", he told me. "It's the content". His ex-teachers can think themselves fortunate I never have to go to a parent's evening again!

[gary]

As I wondered to a captive teacher recently; both my sons have heaps of GCSEs and a clutch of A levels and I am amazed at their ignorance! How do you achieve an A level in English with a total inability to spell? My youngest did. Luckily for him, I proof read his first job application. Even I wouldn't have employed him. Yet the arguments it caused. "Spelling's not important,Dad", he told me. "It's the content". His ex-teachers can think themselves fortunate I never have to go to a parent's evening again!
I'm with you on this one my lad is putting together advertising copy for his business at the moment, I am proof reading and rejigging the lot. He too is of the opinion that form, spelling and grammar are of little import. I tell him that if I had a grand to spend and a choice of two identically equipped companies to pick from my dosh would go to the one that didn't split the infintive. I finished the piece, gave it to him to read through and to get the opinion of girlfriend who is thankfully more literary

I think it worked, the last email I received had his ideas as a Word attachment and the message 'work your magic on this....'

[Catica]

I'm with you on this one my lad is putting together advertising copy for his business at the moment, I am proof reading and rejigging the lot. He too is of the opinion that form, spelling and grammar are of little import. I tell him that if I had a grand to spend and a choice of two identically equipped companies to pick from my dosh would go to the one that didn't split the infintive. I finished the piece, gave it to him to read through and to get the opinion of girlfriend who is thankfully more literary

I think it worked, the last email I received had his ideas as a Word attachment and the message 'work your magic on this....'

I thought this was an American thing.

The vast majority of Americans feel that grammar, spelling and punctuation are either over-rated or a symbol of snobbery. I say this for several reasons, but one in particular was an exchange I had had with a friend on my university swim team. We had team sweatshirts, team calenders, team hats, you name it, for our Cal State University, Bakersfield, Mens and Womens Swim Team". He was selling them in a booth in the hallway.

I asked what happened to the apostrophe. He said I was a snob.

Later, my roommate's mother, herself a student at UCLA, said, "Of course there's no apostrophe. It's plural!"

She went to look in a grammar reference guide, found nothing to back up her assertions, but never relinquished her point of view that "womens" is plural.

I have basically been in a depression since that day.

[gary]

I thought this was an American thing.

The vast majority of Americans feel that grammar, spelling and punctuation are either over-rated or a symbol of snobbery. I say this for several reasons, but one in particular was an exchange I had had with a friend on my university swim team. We had team sweatshirts, team calenders, team hats, you name it, for our Cal State University, Bakersfield, Mens and Womens Swim Team". He was selling them in a booth in the hallway.

I asked what happened to the apostrophe. He said I was a snob.

Later, my roommate's mother, herself a student at UCLA, said, "Of course there's no apostrophe. It's plural!"

She went to look in a grammar reference guide, found nothing to back up her assertions, but never relinquished her point of view that "womens" is plural.

I have basically been in a depression since that day.
Aposrtophes are taught too early imho - you end up with nine year olds that havent a clue so you get wirds like pain't and dream't... no one cnscrew up english berrer than the English...

I heard a mum say "you can have a McDonalds if you behave"

Later the girl was heard to ask "Have I been haved enough for a McDonalds, mum?"

I just sighed... what hope is there?

[Edith]

How do you achieve an A level in English with a total inability to spell?

The same thing is happening in Holland... >:D we are all dumbing down I guess. The spelling mistakes I see on the Internet - and not only in Dutch - just make me want to cry!

[rob]

I don't mean to troll, but it would seem to me that the grammar here isn't of the highest standard either.

Maybe all age groups are in need a dose of grammar lessons.

Admittedly spelling and what not is atrocious, but I'm not entirely sure you can blame the shortcomings of someone's schooling for their lack of knowledge about the language, they need to be shown proper language first and then they can develop.

[gary]

I don't mean to troll, but it would seem to me that the grammar here isn't of the highest standard either.

Maybe all age groups are in need a dose of grammar lessons.

Admittedly spelling and what not is atrocious, but I'm not entirely sure you can blame the shortcomings of someone's schooling for their lack of knowledge about the language, they need to be shown proper language first and then they can develop.

Many of our members are non native speakers of English and I wish my Spanbish grammar came half as close as theirs does.

This is a conversational, thus informal forum, and whereasd it is important to know the correct form of expression it is not always compulsory to use it. Partridge pointed out that the use of slang is used as a badge of identity - hence teenagers almosy have their own language. ... perhaps its, sorry it's, just that people fail to recognise where formal and informal codes of language are most appropriate in their everyday lives.

It's a breakdown in the class system or a slipping in standards - depends on your opint of view.... dunnit?

[Marbella]

This is a bit off the Spain track but I don't like to think that standards have dropped in the British education system. I am sure that the vast majority of those that get good A level results work extremely hard but there is something wrong when employers are complaining that graduates are entering the workplace barely able to write an accurate sentence.

When I were a lad we would lose marks for poor spelling and grammar - so you had to learn or score lower marks. If the examiners are too lenient these days then maybe they should be told to toughen up. But then exam performance would drop and the government would be accused of failing on education. The easier Blair makes it for exams to be passed then the easier it is for him to stand up and say that New Labour improved education.

I do look at the work my son does now in science and maths and I think he is a year behind the work I did when I was his age. We did physics, chemistry and biology as separate subjects but he just does 'science'. In chemistry we started with the periodic table and had to learn all the chemical symbols. He's done science for a year and not touched the periodic table yet. I'm not saying that they won't cover the same ground in the end but it does seem easier now. I agree with Gary about the Spanish GCSE, it is so easy it is ridiculous. My son is 12 and he and a few classmates will take the exam next May.

Written communication these days is fast and furious, particularly in business, where many people will get a couple of hundred emails a day to wade through. I try not to do it myself but I think we can make allowances for poor form in business emails - as long as the individual responsible is capable of writing a document that makes logical and grammatical sense. Many cannot do this at all.

Internet messaging, text messaging, even forums like this allow for mistakes as long as people can get the gist of what you are trying to say. You might know the best selling book by Lynne Truss, Eats, Shoots & Leaves (the zero tolerance approach to punctuation): Rod Liddle wrote a kind of protest article against the book without using any punctuation at all. He made his point quite beautifully because it was quite easy to get the gist of his message despite the lack of good form.

[greytop]

You might know the best selling book by Lynne Truss, Eats, Shoots & Leaves (the zero tolerance approach to punctuation): ...
I thought I knew something about grammar and punctuation till I read this less than complimentary review (http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?040628crbo_books1) from "The New Yorker" of Lynne's book.
One phrase however could become NFS's mission statement

"Writing is an instrument that was invented for recording, storing, and communicating. Using the relatively small number of symbols on the keyboard, you can record, store, and communicate a virtually infinite range of information, and encode meanings with virtually any degree of complexity."

Written communication these days is fast and furious,... ...
Agreed, but a CV should be a bit more leisurely. Judging by those that used to cross my desk there was/is a definite problem. If people read what they have written the most obvious mistakes should leap out at them. That they do not suggests a lack of basic grammar or exposure to good writing. Back to Mr Blair (& many of all political hues before him) I fear.

[ValenciaSon]

Well I think Gary made a good point; the communication style here is more conversational. I don't think any of us speaks with the same formal tone we use when drafting professional documents.

I knew someone who loaded the Dragon voice-recognition software package on his laptop and he used to use it to create his work documents. He had to stop because his documents became too informal.

[gary]

This is a bit off the Spain track but I don't like to think that standards have dropped in the British education system. I am sure that the vast majority of those that get good A level results work extremely hard but there is something wrong when employers are complaining that graduates are entering the workplace barely able to write an accurate sentence.

GCE O Level was the hardest thing I can remember doing. Eight subjects over two years and sixteen hours of exams - no coursework - at the end. Shit or bust. All the knowledge, all the time. It was a model that suited me. I cant work without a deadline and my best work is always done under pressure. It is also true to say that I didnt truly understand some of the stuff I learnt until I was in my early 20s - but at least it was in there for me to unravel.

Let me also say that I have never been particularly worried whether my kids passed or failed whatever tests. As it happened they by and large passed. Exams are like busses - if you miss one take another. Non of the 14 O levels or the 5 A levels they got beteen them have made a rats arse difference. Daughter works in a bank, she failed O level maths but she can count £1000 worth of fivers in no time at all. son has started a video production company and spent much of his 2 year college course teaching the tutor how to use Maya, he has yet to fully utilise his GCSE in Geography. They are articulate talented people and will get on despite the system. They were never placed under the kind of pressure that some children experience at home.

It is true to say that the kids work as hard and worry as much as we ever did, what has slumped is the level of expectation. As you said it is evident that in Spanish GCE and GCSE are not the same beast by a long chalk. What is expected at the age of 16 is less now than it was. Why? - well, its a question of massaging the figures - sure more people are passing the tests than ever so the headline is good, but if the tests are less rigorous then you would expect that.

I remember when Blunkett said that there would be such and such a percentage of students pass KS2 sats by a certain date. Yoiu could bet the mortgage on it... they set and mark the test then the panel decides what the grade boundaries are. The onset of coursework has also, imho, caused standards to slip. There is no longer the need to have all the knowledge you just learn the bit you need, pass the section, even - dare I say let your Dad do a bit for you and tart up your work before its handed in. Coursework also favours the learning style and mindset of girls who are much more conscientious, coursework would have killed me. Job and finish - move on, is the learning style favoured, it seems by boys.

In previous times only 10% of the poulation in England Wales and NI was deemed to be of a standard that was worthy of Higher Ed. Now its 30%. Has the demographic changed and is our society more intelligent? No, education has become a buisness and the establishments need the throughput of bodies to make ends meet - hence if you are determined enough there will be a university course you can get on without actually passing an A level. At the end of the day, you sign up for the course and pay your tuition fee and if you dont finish the year theyve got your money and the tutor has less students.... easy!

As the old gag says - whats the most common question asked of a philisophp graduate?
"Can I have large fries with that please?"

The other issue is quality of teaching... too big a can of worms for me to open up now - I'm going out in six hours time!! Save to say that there is a percentage of young people that do a nowter degree cos its the logical next step and they finish three years. As demand is low in the labour market they opt for the fourth year tossing it off and qualify as teachers. The following year they end up in schools and lack the interpersonal skills needed to tame 32 lions with neither whip, chair nor revolver....
Some of the best and most enthusiastic teachers I know are under 25 but a good proportion are as above. There was always a groan in the staff room when the head said that they had appointed a wonderfully qualified candidate - we wanted someone that could hold his/her own in a street fight.

[Marbella]

As the old gag says - whats the most common question asked of a philisophp graduate?
"Can I have large fries with that please?"


Funny:) .

I liked the line from the recent libel trial here in the UK about Paul Mckenna's degree/Phd from a certain US university. There was only one question to answer correctly in order to be awarded the degree, "Do you have 2,615 dollars, sir?".

[gary]

Funny:) .

I liked the line from the recent libel trial here in the UK about Paul Mckenna's degree/Phd from a certain US university. There was only one question to answer correctly in order to be awarded the degree, "Do you have 2,615 dollars, sir?".

Excellent!!

i have never met anyone with a (genuine) doctorate that could teach yet the ex miner that was our caretaker at one school could hold a class spellbound. They arent made, they're born.

[Alan]

I read a book that was written in the 30s. I forget its name, but its main point was the fact that spelling and grammar were declining at such a fast rate even then. People were missing out the apostrophe in "to-day" and not using a full stop to indicate abbreviations (it used to be the B.B.C., but now you would hardly ever see that). The author then took a turn and explained that he did not mean this and that it was actually a good thing that English was so flexible and open to change. If a word does not exist, you can borrow it (déjà vû), adapt from a different word (podcast) or completely make it up and the chances are that you would be understood. Gary mentioned that the split infinitive would put him off a company, but why should this not be used. The common example used is to "boldly go". When it comes down to it, English is a Germanic language and it should be able to split the infinitive if it bloody well wants. I try to write and spell correctly, but if the rules change, I'm happy to change with them.

People complain about lack of standards, but as long as people need to express themselves, language will find its way.

[richardksa]

People complain about lack of standards, but as long as people need to express themselves, language will find its way.

True, and they have come up with some real horrors; "To Obligate" and "to acclimate" being my two pets hates our American cousins have decided are better than the original words. Talk about reinventing the wheel!

But my main gripe is that we seem to be raising a generation that have a measure of difficulty in "expressing themselves". I have to deal with reports from supposedly "educated" engineers and their spelling, syntax, punctuation and sentence construction leaves a lot to be desired. I usually have to read only the first paragraph before I ask if they have proof read what they have written. "I spell checked it", they say, forgetting that our language contains many homonyms.

In fact I get better English reports from my Indian and Pakistani colleagues - and they don't regard me as a freak when I point out an error.

A language is a collection of words following preset rules. We are all aware of that in our Spanish studies. Use the correct word with the correct rule and you get unambiguous communication, which is the point, really. "Express yourself" in your own way and the only person who understands what you want to say is you. That's bad commnication and a waste of language. Assuming they actually use words and not a series of grunts or, "I was like..." followed by some silly mime.

Having said that, yes, languages are living things and do indeed change, but we all have to agree on the changes or misunderstanding will be the result. Compare "Pissed" as used in the UK and the states, which is a poor example, but it's getting late.

[ValenciaSon]

"Obligate" is incorrect? What do you consider the correct form of that word? Shouldn't there be differences between British english and American english?

[gary]

I read a book that was written in the 30s. I forget its name, but its main point was the fact that spelling and grammar were declining at such a fast rate even then. People were missing out the apostrophe in "to-day" and not using a full stop to indicate abbreviations (it used to be the B.B.C., but now you would hardly ever see that). The author then took a turn and explained that he did not mean this and that it was actually a good thing that English was so flexible and open to change. If a word does not exist, you can borrow it (déjà vû), adapt from a different word (podcast) or completely make it up and the chances are that you would be understood. Gary mentioned that the split infinitive would put him off a company, but why should this not be used. The common example used is to "boldly go". When it comes down to it, English is a Germanic language and it should be able to split the infinitive if it bloody well wants. I try to write and spell correctly, but if the rules change, I'm happy to change with them.

People complain about lack of standards, but as long as people need to express themselves, language will find its way.

The split infinitive thing was tongue in cheek - I too try 'to never miss'
Star trek but I might feel more confident in a company that plainly had a grasp of form, spelling and grammar rather than one that did not.

BTW Thats a hyphen in to-day not an apostrophe (sorry couldnt not...)

VS - I too am uncomfortable with the verb to obligate... its even in the dictionary, but burgalrize is my pet hate - and if there were such a word (spot the subjunctive there) in English it would be spelt burglarise - with an s...

jewelry or jewellery anyone ?

Geoffrey would turn in his grave.....

Whan that aprill with his shoures soote

The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,

And bathed every veyne in swich licour

Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

Whan zephirus eek with his sweete breeth

Inspired hath in every holt and heeth

Tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne

Hath in the ram his halve cours yronne,

And smale foweles maken melodye,

That slepen al the nyght with open ye

(so priketh hem nature in hir corages);

Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,

And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes,

To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;

And specially from every shires ende

Of engelond to caunterbury they wende,

The hooly blisful martir for to seke,

That hem hath holpen whan that they were seeke.


... now thats what I call English!!!!
(tongue now poking through cheek)

[gary]

"Obligate" is incorrect? What do you consider the correct form of that word? Shouldn't there be differences between British english and American english?

There are differences Between English English in London and, for instance Newcastle or Sommerset English. For Petes sake, a tea cake in Barnsley is a bread cake, some places it is a bapp, some a stotty, but if you ask for a tea cake in Leeds - 20 miles away you get a confection with currants not unlike a hot cross bun bun without the cinnamon.

[Alan]

BTW Thats a hyphen in to-day not an apostrophe (sorry couldnt not...)
Great typo! I do know that it's a hyphen! honest! :D

There are differences Between English English in London and, for instance Newcastle or Sommerset English. For Petes sake, a tea cake in Barnsley is a bread cake, some places it is a bapp, some a stotty, but if you ask for a tea cake in Leeds - 20 miles away you get a confection with currants not unlike a hot cross bun bun without the cinnamon.

A tea cake here is a biscuit, topped with mallow and completely covered in chocolate.

[ValenciaSon]

Yeah so there is recognition on how the english language varies by geography, but if we spell it color, not colour or realize, not realise, it's not because we are a nation of spelling/grammar scofflaws. We speak American-English which is a legitimate version of english. British-english is also legitimate and is accepted as so in the US so why not recognize that the difference exists and lies in the fact that each society has chosen a language evolutionary path distinct to the other.

It doesn't grate me to see favour or acclimatise used but it is a little grating to be criticized for not using it:)

[Alan]

Absolutely. Variations happen n its a natural part of language. Ive no problem with it at all. Similarly (but, please dont think im comparin usa English to some of the unintelligible nonsense that is typed on some forums), the variations brought about by the so called "texting generation" shud not be looked upon as a problem: theyre variations. Writing "you" as "u" for example, is in my opinion, a variation. It mite survive - it mite not. This is how words such as "o'clock", "don't" and "won't" came around. If ppl see "u" as bein an illegitimate word, they will stop using it n go bak to "you". If however, it is seen as quite useful to be able to rite a word that is used very often in a 1/3 of the time and is easier for learners of the language to spel, those who spell it "you" cud be persuaded. Perhaps not u, perhaps not ur children, but maybe their children. If the language they r spouting out is unintelligible, the status quo will stand.

Of course, if they can't get their idea across, they have no chance. And unfortunately, that is very common.

[Marbella]

Yeah so there is recognition on how the english language varies by geography, but if we spell it color, not colour or realize, not realise, it's not because we are a nation of spelling/grammar scofflaws. We speak American-English which is a legitimate version of english. British-english is also legitimate and is accepted as so in the US so why not recognize that the difference exists and lies in the fact that each society has chosen a language evolutionary path distinct to the other.

It doesn't grate me to see favour or acclimatise used but it is a little grating to be criticized for not using it:)

No, no, no, no, no! There is no such thing as British-English. There is English and there is American-English.

[Marbella]

I don't know if this is just the BBC trying to depress the British people into moving to Spain. GCSE results are out today and unsurprisingly they're better than ever. We should be celebrating in Britain that we are getting cleverer. Must be all that Omega-3 they've got us hooked on.

Good old BBC though...the headline here is 'Languages at point of no return' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5281126.stm). German entries down 14%, French down 13%, and despite all the hype about Spanish becoming the second language for Brits, the entries are down slightly.

And...subjects that now have more entries than ever: religious studies, ICT (computer studies), PE (sports) and 'media, film and TV studies'. We used to be a nation of shopkeepers and now are we really going to be a nation of bible-bashing, internet using, football playing, Big Brother contestants?

[gary]

Great typo! I do know that it's a hyphen! honest! :D

Yeah, I knew that but I couldnt resist...

A tea cake here is a biscuit, topped with mallow and completely covered in chocolate.

That would be a chocolate teacake - wrapped in red and silver foil?

spelling has always been a moving target as my quote from Chaucer proves. The thing is that spelling has evolved and at any given time there is a set of accepted spellings. The current disregard for spelling for the sake of brevity is more of a mutation. As long as people know that you is spelt you and not u I think its alright, or if you prefer all right.

I know that when I left college my spelling was confident and accurate. 30+ years in classrooms being exposed to all sorts of speling variationd finds me calling my own spelling into doubt.

I am really at sea on this one, my own son is a poor speller, but can code php, html and css well enough to write an online shop. I just feel that when you're dealing with the people with the money - old farts like me - a nod in the direction of orthodoxy will get you the gig - what you do then is immaterial as long as the job is well done and meets the criteria.

[gary]

Good old BBC though...the headline here is 'Languages at point of no return' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5281126.stm). German entries down 14%, French down 13%, and despite all the hype about Spanish becoming the second language for Brits, the entries are down slightly.


Many schools would love to offer Spanish instead of German - kids see it as relevant.
BUT - as a result of historical dominance of German and French there arent enough teachers of Spanish. Chicken - egg - etc...

[greytop]

And...subjects that now have more entries than ever: religious studies, ICT (computer studies), PE (sports) and 'media, film and TV studies'. We used to be a nation of shopkeepers and now are we really going to be a nation of bible-bashing, internet using, football playing, Big Brother contestants?
How, one wonders, are they going to learn much in media studies if they are only capable of understanding English. Rules out a lot of the world! Maybe that is a hook to hang some conversational language studies on. Ditto the internet. I often access French, Italian or Spanish sites and can at least see what they are about and resort to a dictionary if need be.

[Marbella]

From the comments section on the BBC's GCSE story:) :

Added: Thursday, 24 August, 2006, 11:19 GMT 12:19 UK
YAY!!! I GOT 12 O-levuls! My teecher says my Inglish is brilliant! I told her she don't know nuthin' - she shuld see my Spannish. I love pasing exams - im going too be trying for six A-levuls in a cupple of years. Wish me LUK!!!!

[ValenciaSon]

No, no, no, no, no! There is no such thing as British-English. There is English and there is American-English.

That depends on who you ask or where you get your info from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences). The UK is no longer considered the epicenter to the english language. Rather it is a peer to American-English.

[Marbella]

That depends on who you ask or where you get your info from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences). The UK is no longer considered the epicenter to the english language. Rather it is a peer to American-English.

No, American-English is a version of English. That's not to say that it is inferior: why not change a few spellings and word definitions if you find it easier, but it's just a version of the original not a peer. I can still understand you when you talk about pants and elevators, so no worries;).

[ValenciaSon]

No, American-English is a version of English. That's not to say that it is inferior: why not change a few spellings and word definitions if you find it easier, but it's just a version of the original not a peer. I can still understand you when you talk about pants and elevators, so no worries;).


No, American-English splintered off of British or Commonwealth English and is its own form of legitimate English like Commonwealth English and the two are peers because none of the two is superior or is weighted with any more importance than the other. You should as well remain at ease for we also understand you despite all the differences, we can acclimate to your color.;)

[Marbella]

No, American-English splintered off of British or Commonwealth English and is its own form of legitimate English like Commonwealth English and the two are peers because none of the two is superior or is weighted with any more importance than the other. You should as well remain at ease for we also understand you despite all the differences, we can acclimate to your color.;)

That's right, a splinter from English, from England, introduced to America by the English. It's not a question of superiority, rather originality. Unquestionably, as with most things in the world, America has helped shape modern English, but isn't it true that English [or American-English] isn't even your national language?

[ValenciaSon]

That's right, a splinter from English, from England, introduced to America by the English. It's not a question of superiority, rather originality. Unquestionably, as with most things in the world, America has helped shape modern English, but isn't it true that English [or American-English] isn't even your national language?

Much like how english splintered off latin, anglo-saxon and other germanic languages over the years.


Well then what is my national language?

[Marbella]

Much like how english splintered off latin, anglo-saxon and other germanic languages over the years.


Well yes, English was created from those languages over hundreds of years due to the invasions of England by various peoples. I wouldn't use splintered really.


Well then what is my national language?

You don't have one - do you?

[gary]

From the comments section on the BBC's GCSE story:) :

Added: Thursday, 24 August, 2006, 11:19 GMT 12:19 UK
YAY!!! I GOT 12 O-levuls! My teecher says my Inglish is brilliant! I told her she don't know nuthin' - she shuld see my Spannish. I love pasing exams - im going too be trying for six A-levuls in a cupple of years. Wish me LUK!!!!

the trubl wi O levls iz that all the greyds above fayl r cowntid az passis, ony greyds c and abuv r wrth a wnk. if u av a greyds belo c wot u iffectvly av is a sertificut to say u r belo avrige!!

[Marbella]

the trubl wi O levls iz that all the greyds above fayl r cowntid az passis, ony greyds c and abuv r wrth a wnk. if u av a greyds belo c wot u iffectvly av is a sertificut to say u r belo avrige!!

You really made me laugh out loud Gary. I remember now why I loved living in Yorkshire so much.

[gary]

That depends on who you ask or where you get your info from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences). The UK is no longer considered the epicenter to the english language. Rather it is a peer to American-English.

With respect, thats a load of b****cks.

Only my opinion mind, but I dont think Wikipedia is worth quoting as an authoratative source.

It isnt a parellel/peer its the same language, one for which US decided to standardise spelling and did a bunch then nobody botthered to carry on and finish the job.

Its no big deal - there are many alternative acceptable spellings in English, jewellery, jewelry, alright, all right.... the main thing is we communicate and comprehend each other --- lets move on, eh?

[richardksa]

VS: The word is "Oblige". Both this and "Obligate" have the same Latin root - "Obligare". "Oblige" came through to English via French as a verb. In recent history Americans used "Oblige" too. Your "Obligate" came directly from Latin - but before you began using it as you do now, it was a noun meaning "to exist under just one set of conditions". English as spoken in the States, Australia, NZ, Creole, etc etc are all derivatives of Late Medieval English as spoken by the Elizabethan explorers and has naturally mutated and been added to from other sources. Exactly as English as spoken in its home country has also changed. Much of this information can be found in Melvyn Bragg's "The Adventure of English" and also Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue". Melvyn Bragg made the point at the end of his book that if English goes on mutating in the different regions it is used, it will eventually become separate languages altogether, which surely is a backward step for communication between peoples. Which is exactly what happened to the original Anglo Saxon/Friesian language it itself derived from. In 500 AD most northern Europeans could understand each other. Now to me, the other northern Europeans languages are just double dutch. (Sorry Edith!)

[Alan]

This is a pointless argument. As has been covered before, it is a very subjective thing to say that something is a language or not. Irish and Scottish Gaelic used to be the same language, as did Scots and English. At some point they separated and there is no point in arguing over when that was and who is right. If "English" is the language that was used when the USA was founded, then both US English and Modern English come from that. Why argue over terminology: it's clear what happened. To argue that the US has somehow bastardised English is just daft.

If we want to get picky about it, why do we use "gateaux" for a singular cake when the word in French is plural? Where is the ^ above the a? At what point did "law" change from loi? If US English has found a need to create the word "obligate" then who is anyone to say it's wrong? English takes words from all sorts of languages and bashes them about, but somehow that's okay.

. . . and it is okay. But you have to accept that the US will do it too. Different language or not, splintered or not, please accept the language's right to exist as a living, breathing, changing, entity.

[ValenciaSon]

VS: The word is "Oblige". Both this and "Obligate" have the same Latin root - "Obligare". "Oblige" came through to English via French as a verb. In recent history Americans used "Oblige" too. Your "Obligate" came directly from Latin - but before you began using it as you do now, it was a noun meaning "to exist under just one set of conditions". English as spoken in the States, Australia, NZ, Creole, etc etc are all derivatives of Late Medieval English as spoken by the Elizabethan explorers and has naturally mutated and been added to from other sources. Exactly as English as spoken in its home country has also changed. Much of this information can be found in Melvyn Bragg's "The Adventure of English" and also Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue". Melvyn Bragg made the point at the end of his book that if English goes on mutating in the different regions it is used, it will eventually become separate languages altogether, which surely is a backward step for communication between peoples. Which is exactly what happened to the original Anglo Saxon/Friesian language it itself derived from. In 500 AD most northern Europeans could understand each other. Now to me, the other northern Europeans languages are just double dutch. (Sorry Edith!)


English is not where it all started, and as a language, it owes its existence to other languages which predates Late Medieval English and your Elizabethan explorers. My langauge is American-English because I was born and raised an American. I may in part descend from Spain and spent some time there in my youth, but Spanish is my second language at best.

In American-english, "obliged" carries less weight than "obligated". So one does not conflict with the other.

I'm sure the Anglo Saxon/Friesan has its roots in other older languages, my point being that language is not static, its is in a constant dynamic state, ever responsive to its environment, regardless of what conventions were formally laid out for its use.

[Edith]

Now to me, the other northern Europeans languages are just double dutch. (Sorry Edith!)

LOL, no offense taken! ;)

[ValenciaSon]

Time for a new topic!

[Marbella]

This is a pointless argument.

Then why join in.


Time for a new topic!


I don't really care VS if you want to call my language British-English but I am very interested in your views and typical of this site we've had a mature conversation with no malice intended. I agree, new topic needed.

[Alan]

Then why join in.

I didn't join in. I explained why it was pointless.

[Marbella]

I didn't join in. I explained why it was pointless.

I'm anaspeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused you such pericumbobulation.

[richardksa]

I agree. It's pointless. But interesting none the less. My interest in languages has led me to read about the many ways that language can be constructed and used. I did not say American English was in any way inferiour to the original - just that a couple of words grated. My opinion, my hang-up. And this forum allows me the right to state my opinion. It's not worth having an argument about it though.

Yes, original English is itself a derivative of several mutations going back, as far as etymologists can tell, to some Indian tongue. What I was trying to say was that as the world gets smaller the ability to communicate becomes ever more important. God punished the world by making us speak in different languages and now it's time to tear down the tower of babel. This will not be done if differing branches of the same language mutates into unintelligability.

[greytop]

I wondered how much english (in UK) had changed and found this copy of the 1719 verison of the novel Robinson Crusoe (http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1719-robinson-crusoe.html). It has spelling differences and apostrophes used for the "e" in past tenses but is remarkably close to the modern english we use today - not bad for almost 300 years. Wonder if the next 300 will produce as little change!
From the few bits of old spanish I've seen a similar correspondence occurs.
Obviously all languages must keep adding words to cope with technology and modern life but I think Daniel Defoe would have been able to converse quite well with us today.

[ValenciaSon]

With respect, thats a load of b****cks.





I know it means some kind of strong exclamation but what exactly does "b****cks" mean?

[guapo]

I know it means some kind of strong exclamation but what exactly does "b****cks" mean?

Wikipedia to the rescue again, VS take a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollocks). A truly useful and highly versatile word ;D

[ValenciaSon]

Thanks G

[gary]

I know it means some kind of strong exclamation but what exactly does "b****cks" mean?

British colloquial phrase means "load of nonsense"

The stars fill in as follows for -ollo---

[richardksa]

I know it means some kind of strong exclamation but what exactly does "b****cks" mean?

Strong!?

Actually, it's what I say when company won't let me use the F word. In more polite company I will say "Blocks".

[ValenciaSon]

Stronger than balderdash?

[greytop]

Strong!?

Actually, it's what I say when company won't let me use the F word. In more polite company I will say "Blocks".

...or hollyhocks

[gary]

Stronger than balderdash?

oh yes

where the f word is a 10 and tha c word off the scale this is probably around the 6/7 mark

balderdash doesnt rate at all

Other colloquial uses include:

a b****cking - severe telling off
to be b****cksed - to be very drunk
to make a b****cks - to make a complete mess of something
to have b****ck all - to have nothing
oh yeah and noun pl : b****cks = testicles

[ValenciaSon]

What about "the dog's bullocks (http://www.winelabels.org/image/bollocks.gif)"?

[gary]

What about "the dog's bullocks (http://www.winelabels.org/image/bollocks.gif)"?

now you're getting in to the swing....

[Edith]

I know it means some kind of strong exclamation but what exactly does "b****cks" mean?

Here is a useful link to the English-To-American Dictionary:

http://english2american.com/dictionary/wholelot.html

[guapo]

Here is a useful link to the English-To-American Dictionary:

http://english2american.com/dictionary/wholelot.html

good site Edith, that really is the "mutt's nuts" :o

[Catica]

No, no, no, no, no! There is no such thing as British-English. There is English and there is American-English.

If I lived in England, I would share this perspective. In the U.S., there's English and then there's British-English. :)

[gary]

If I lived in England, I would share this perspective. In the U.S., there's English and then there's British-English. :)


i refer you to the first line of a previous post

http://www.notesfromspain.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6864&postcount=49

we now seem to be in some kind of loop....

[richardksa]

What about "the dog's bullocks (http://www.winelabels.org/image/bollocks.gif)"?

Many years ago there was a wonderful construction set for children called Mecano. Predating Lego by a generation or two, it consisted of metal strips with holes along them and hundreds of tiny nuts and bolts. Just about anything within a child's imagination could be built.

There was a cheap set and an expensive set. The cheap set was called "box standard", which in spoken English became "Bog Standard", and the expensive "Box Deluxe", which morphed into "Dog's Bollocks" to mean anything of high standard.

[ValenciaSon]

Many years ago there was a wonderful construction set for children called Mecano. Predating Lego by a generation or two, it consisted of metal strips with holes along them and hundreds of tiny nuts and bolts. Just about anything within a child's imagination could be built.

There was a cheap set and an expensive set. The cheap set was called "box standard", which in spoken English became "Bog Standard", and the expensive "Box Deluxe", which morphed into "Dog's Bollocks" to mean anything of high standard.


Sounds like the old erector set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erector_Set) in the US. I read that the Meccano predates the erector set.

[ValenciaSon]

http://www.djfl.de/entertainment/stars/s/sandra_bullock/sandra_bullock.jpgnow you're getting in to the swing....

I've been meaning to ask, do you guys chuckle every time you hear the actress' name, Sandra Bullock mentioned?

[gary]

I've been meaning to ask, do you guys chuckle every time you hear the actress' name, Sandra Bullock mentioned?

One vowel out - if she were Sandra Bollock it would be hilarious,
We dont usually chuckle at place names that contain naughty words either
Penistone and Sc**thorpe barely raise a titter!!!

Update: Bens badword software precluded me from typing the name of the Lincolnshire steel town but I'm sure you can work it out....

[richardksa]

Near where I used to live in England there is a road called "Bell End". That did make me laugh. (One day I might grow up!)

[rhodian]

*sigh* (wipes eyes dry)

goodness, i've enjoyed that. sorry i've come so late to this thread!

but there's a couple of things from, like, pages and pages ago that i want to come back on:

A-level spanish is a HECK of a lot harder now than it was when i did it in '93. other subjects may or may not have gotten easier; i promise that languages are now harder. and as evidence i give the fact that a substantial amount of analysis is required in several essays to be written in the target lang. we did all our lit and history essays in english.

GCSE is a GENERAL certificate of secondary education, so called because everyone does them. of course they're easier than o-levels - the comparison is chalk and cheese; a fraction of students did o-levels, but since everyone (until recently) had to do a gcse language, the test was adapted accordingly; and in doing so it was made a lot more communicative and useful. though i grant that the C-grade level is fairly elementary.

now, lynne truss's book, while very entertaining contains (at least) one annoying error, and it's a big one, since she rants about it sooooo much:

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH "TWO WEEKS NOTICE"

you don't NEED an apostrophe. check it in fowler's modern english usage. an apostrophe may well be preferable, but it is just as easy to argue that two weeks is an adjective phrase rather than a genitive - after all, the notice doesn't belong to the two weeks, does it?

sorry - had to get that off my chest.


oh oh and as for saying that o-levels were better but you didn't understand it all till later, well kids in gcse english or history or whatever generally have to show that they understand it now! (even if their spelling may be wonky!)

[hee hee - scun-horpe - i never noticed that!!! penistone ha ha ha ha ha ah aha ah a ahahaha but you're right - people don't even realise, i only thinks it's funny cos you pointed it out!]

[ProfeDeEspEnWisc]

As I wondered to a captive teacher recently; both my sons have heaps of GCSEs and a clutch of A levels and I am amazed at their ignorance! How do you achieve an A level in English with a total inability to spell? My youngest did. Luckily for him, I proof read his first job application. Even I wouldn't have employed him. Yet the arguments it caused. "Spelling's not important,Dad", he told me. "It's the content". His ex-teachers can think themselves fortunate I never have to go to a parent's evening again!

I was reading through some old topics and couldn't resist passing along (just for fun) this blurb that circulates now and again by e-mail: >:D

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt.

But I do take off for spelling on my students' exams--though not as much if what they wrote makes me laugh. ;D

[Acosta]

, but isn't it true that English [or American-English] isn't even your national language?

It depends on who you talk to. English is the official language more or less. Naturally when one goes to various immigrant communities through out the states that assumption is challenged. In the late 90's the number one ranked morning radio show in Los Angeles was in Spanish.

[ValenciaSon]

There is no official language in the US but there has been an attempt by some to make english the official language. In the US, the term English refers to American-English, as opposed to commonwealth (UK) English.