Flight chaos around the world... [Archive] - Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum

gary

10th August 2006, 07:56 PM

In pictures: airport terror alert

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4779275.stm
Yeah - it saves the French air traffic controllers the job.

I have been to Manchester Airport today and the main problem is the congestion caused by the News Crews at terminal 2 drop off - all but 500 passengers out of 37,000 got away.

Airports will be laughing their hats off after tomorrow - checkin times will rise to accommodate the new security - shops bars will have massive increases in revenue and the government will pocket the VAT and duty from the resulting increase, and all of us might be a little more predisposed to identity cards

Terrorism can sometimes be good for business...

Edith

10th August 2006, 09:48 PM

gary

11th August 2006, 11:15 AM

Thank goodness for some British phlegm... I was getting a bit disconcerted... :rolleyes:

BTW, all the holandeses have got their identity cards, I'm more concerned about my clothing and my toiletries to arrive on time!
I have no problem with having an ID card - I have a mobile phone and a bank card so they can already track me any time they want - I object to having to pay the proposed £90 to join as a member of my own country.

The job would be easy if they just replaced the passport with the card over time. The main problem would be that the computer side would be handed to Capita (the CEO kisses tony blairs arse) and Capita have screwed up everything they have touched in the last 10 years - CRB checkd, child tax credits and the CSA - an agency that collects money from errant parents - apparently it costs £1.40 for every £1 they collect!!

I WOULD object to being expected to carry an ID card at all times.

Edith

11th August 2006, 12:29 PM

I WOULD object to being expected to carry an ID card at all times.

Many Dutch people have also got problems with that and I have to admit I do not carry it with me at all times... ;)

Brian

11th August 2006, 12:44 PM

Many Dutch people have also got problems with that and I have to admit I do not carry it with me at all times... ;)

Why don't they just implant a gps-enabled microchip in our foreheads and be done with it? :rolleyes:

Edith

11th August 2006, 12:57 PM

Why don't they just implant a gps-enabled microchip in our foreheads and be done with it? :rolleyes:

;D

richardksa

11th August 2006, 01:07 PM

Edith

11th August 2006, 01:27 PM

The new hand baggage rules worry me. I just don't trust a baggage handler to care for my laptop. And how can I listen to my Spanish lessons on my MP3 player, which is an excellent way to pass boring flights?

Flying has never been my cup of tea and I am beginning to hate it more and more because of these @#$%^& terrorist threats.

I always carry some underwear and an extra set of clothing with me in case my luggage gets lost. So this isn't permitted any more, either. And how about cameras? I wonder why they don't just check every passenger's hand luggage more throroughly instead of forcing you to part with it. This is what El Al does, I have flown with El Al twice and it's the safest airline in the world because of all the safety procedures.

Alan

11th August 2006, 01:33 PM

No way would I put a laptop in a case. The last time I flew, my case was broken because it was handled so roughly. And if everyone is filling their cases with valuables that they would otherwise carry with them, doesn't that increase the overall value of the cases making theft more likely?

gary

11th August 2006, 01:49 PM

Why don't they just implant a gps-enabled microchip in our foreheads and be done with it? :rolleyes:

Anyone under 35 already has one permanently pressed to their ears!!

gary

11th August 2006, 01:50 PM

Ben

11th August 2006, 08:02 PM

A letter from Easyjet...

Passengers and cabin baggage

The following arrangements apply to all passengers starting their
journey at a UK airport and to those transferring between flights at a
UK airport.

With immediate effect all cabin baggage must be processed as hold
baggage and carried in the hold of the aircraft. To minimise the
inconvenience this may cause, we are temporarily increasing our hold
baggage allowance from 20kg to 25kg per person.

All passengers will be hand searched, as well as their footwear and
all of the items they are carrying will be x-ray screened.

Passengers may take through the airport security search point, in a
single (ideally transparent) plastic carrier bag, only the following
items.

Nothing may be carried in pockets:

* pocket size wallets and pocket size purses plus contents (for
example money, credit cards, identity cards etc (not handbags));

* travel documents essential for the journey (for example passports
and travel tickets);

* prescription medicines and medical items sufficient and essential
for the flight (eg, diabetic kit), except in liquid form unless
verified as authentic.

* spectacles and sunglasses, without cases.

* contact lens holders, without bottles of solution.

* for those traveling with an infant: baby food, milk (the contents of
each bottle must be tasted by the accompanying passenger) and sanitary
items sufficient and essential for the flight (nappies, wipes, creams
and nappy disposal bags).

* female sanitary items sufficient and essential for the flight, if
unboxed (eg tampons, pads, towels and wipes).

* tissues (unboxed) and/or handkerchiefs

* keys (but no electrical key fobs)

How long will this paranoia last? I have to return a borrowed laptop to the UK next week, I presume I can get it on a plane in Spain OK...

Ben

11th August 2006, 08:15 PM

Edith

11th August 2006, 09:36 PM

Edith

11th August 2006, 09:45 PM

And if everyone is filling their cases with valuables that they would otherwise carry with them, doesn't that increase the overall value of the cases making theft more likely?

Sounds very likely!

gary

12th August 2006, 09:33 AM

So if I start a book in Spain I will have to put it in the hold for the journey back here, and buy another one in Gatwick departures bookshop if I want to read it on the plane! Maybe things will have calmed down to reality-setting green by the time I return...
Yes - but no doubt the airport shops will also sell you as much wine and spirits as you can carry then youll be able to smash a bottle to use as a weapon and hijack the flight to the place of your dreams ..er which is where you would have been going anyway...

Update = the two people I took to Manchester on Thursday were not delayed, their flights to Egypt got out on time as did the vast majority of other travellers = onlt Trans Atlantic flights were affected.

May I remind you that it is August and there is traditionally no news, so what little there is is expanded to fill the fime available.

guapo

13th August 2006, 01:04 AM

How long will this paranoia last? I have to return a borrowed laptop to the UK next week, I presume I can get it on a plane in Spain OK...

I flew EasyJet from Milan back to London Gatwick on Friday night. After seeing the news I was expecting the worse, I should have known better. Other than removing all liquids there were no other restrictions. I got on the plane with my laptop, cell phone and IPod all intact.

Seems the restrictions are only being fully applied on flights departing from the UK. For flights into the UK it seems to be much more up to the individual airline what they want to enforce. So I would say you will have no problem getting a laptop on board in Madrid.

Ben

13th August 2006, 08:27 AM

Thanks Guapo, that's just what I wanted to hear! Sooner or later they will have to lift these restrictions in the UK too I'm sure, it just isn't sustainable.

Brian

13th August 2006, 01:48 PM

Thanks Guapo, that's just what I wanted to hear! Sooner or later they will have to lift these restrictions in the UK too I'm sure, it just isn't sustainable.

I agree with you, Ben. I'm just quite glad that they apprehended the plotters before they did something.

guapo

13th August 2006, 02:48 PM

I agree with you, Ben. I'm just quite glad that they apprehended the plotters before they did something.

There has been a lot of complaints in the news here this weekend about BAA the company that runs most of the airports in the UK. Both BA and RyanAir have complained (perhaps unfairly) that BAA is not up to the job and the new security arrangements are causing them to cancel flights and leave passengers behind.

Interestingly BAA has now announced that it is perfectly ok to take anything on board that you buy air-side. This follows predictions of financial ruin for the duty-free shops following the introduction of these new restrictions.

Still since BAA is now owned by Spanish company Ferrovial we can hope that things can only get better...

gary

13th August 2006, 02:55 PM

T

Interestingly BAA has now announced that it is perfectly ok to take anything on board that you buy air-side. This follows predictions of financial ruin for the duty-free shops following the introduction of these new restrictions.

as predicted......now wait for the announcement that we have to check in 3 or 4 hours before thus doubling the airside access to our wallets!!

http://www.notesfromspain.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6166&postcount=2

guapo

13th August 2006, 04:09 PM

as predicted......now wait for the announcement that we have to check in 3 or 4 hours before thus doubling the airside access to our wallets!!
though of course, our safety will always be there number one priority ;)

richardksa

15th August 2006, 11:22 AM

From yesterday's Arab News:

greytop

15th August 2006, 02:23 PM

Still since BAA is now owned by Spanish company Ferrovial we can hope that things can only get better...
Would you settle for "different"?

Marbella

15th August 2006, 06:26 PM

Edith

15th August 2006, 06:43 PM

BBC reporting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4795821.stm)that 10,000 bags have been misplaced since the security alert began. Your life in their hands. And what about passenger profiling (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4794975.stm)?
Controversial but seems logical?

Yesterday, I saw a documentary about security in the U.S., where everyone is a potential suspect, including young mothers or the elderly.

A acquaintance of mine returned from London Heathrow yesterday after a holiday in Canada, and her luggage (including an expensive digital camera) hasn't turned up yet.

guapo

16th August 2006, 11:36 PM

Good one! I guess that is the next logical step

gary

16th August 2006, 11:43 PM

Yesterday, I saw a documentary about security in the U.S., where everyone is a potential suspect, including young mothers or the elderly.

A acquaintance of mine returned from London Heathrow yesterday after a holiday in Canada, and her luggage (including an expensive digital camera) hasn't turned up yet.

I bet there are lots of cheap second hand electronics going round London - 10 000 bags went missing.....

Edith

17th August 2006, 05:21 AM

I bet there are lots of cheap second hand electronics going round London - 10 000 bags went missing.....

>:D

I bet this will have a very negative effect on the tourism industry.

Pepino

17th August 2006, 08:17 AM

There has been a lot of complaints in the news here this weekend about BAA the company that runs most of the airports in the UK. Both BA and RyanAir have complained (perhaps unfairly) that BAA is not up to the job and the new security arrangements are causing them to cancel flights and leave passengers behind.

I know the big 3 airports in the south-east are among the biggest around, but up here in Manchester, the airport, despite being (I think) much bigger than Stanstead and not a million miles off the size of Gatwick, remained virtually trouble-free throughout. Alright, it was busy etc, but there were very few cancelled flights and only relatively short delays etc. I put this down to the fact that Manchester airport is run independently by a consortium of the 10 or so local Greater Manchester Councils and is therefore not part of BAA (although I believe BAA have tried for years to acquire it) and isn't subject to BAA's flaky preparations and procedures.

One of the worst delays I heard about from a friend who works as ground staff at Manchester, was a flight that was boarded last Friday and was almost ready to push back, when a passenger opened their in-flight magazine and saw a written message saying that this plane would explode on that particular date.

Everybody off, and a not-so-nice 8 hour delay! :eek:

gary

17th August 2006, 10:26 AM

One of the worst delays I heard about from a friend who works as ground staff at Manchester, was a flight that was boarded last Friday and was almost ready to push back, when a passenger opened their in-flight magazine and saw a written message saying that this plane would explode on that particular date.
Everybody off, and a not-so-nice 8 hour delay! :eek:

I am amazed that the terrorists dont use this kind of tactic more often - its cheap and has maximum disruption - which were I to be a terrorist would be my aim as opposed to death and destruction.

Edith

17th August 2006, 12:11 PM

I am amazed that the terrorists dont use this kind of tactic more often - its cheap and has maximum disruption - which were I to be a terrorist would be my aim as opposed to death and destruction.

But that's precisely what terrorists are after - death and destruction.

gary

17th August 2006, 12:22 PM

But that's precisely what terrorists are after - death and destruction.
Naah - terrorists want recognition, usually for a particular cause - Nelson Mandela, Jerry Adams - once terrorists with causes (whether you agreed with them or not) now politicians. The IRA issued warnings when bombs were going to be detonated - the object was terror - ie making us all frightened to go about our everyday business until we agree to at least talk about their demands

The Islamic fundamentalists concerned with these outrages believe, I think, that by attacking and killing the infidel (ie secular westerners, chrisitians, etc) they will be guaranteed a place in heaven. The by product is terror - ie making us all frightened to go about our everyday business - there are no demands the killing is an end in itself, whats more they also seem to no problem killing other muslims as they will also be accorded martyrdom.

Señora

20th August 2006, 10:42 AM

I actually have some sympathy for BAA, they were given 5 hours notice of the security level being raised to critical last week by the Government, and they brought in all available staff.
Heathrow being the busiest and biggest airport should have had the army/military police deployed to help the situation, therefore IMO the British Government are equally to blame for the chaos.

BAA has a strict vetting procedure for the staff it employs that takes approx 6 weeks to complete.
Whilst BAA is not without fault, the consequences of terrorist threats at airports on this scale should have been discussed and a procedure/policy put it place by all the parties concerned….not leave it solely to BAA.

I’m flying to Malaga next Sunday morning and I’m well aware of what is allowed in my hand luggage, but despite the information being in every form of media, people were still turning up at airports with items that are forbidden.
I’m personally glad that restrictions are now in place with regards to hand luggage, people were taking far too much on board and ramming the bags in the overhead lockers.

I don’t condone terrorists or suicide bombers, but we have to look at why these people are prepared to die for their cause, history will tell us that yesterdays freedom fighters/terrorists become tomorrows Nationalists.
We have to look at our foreign policies and stop trying to bring democracy overnight to the Middle East…..supporting policies that violate UN resolutions and ethnic cleanses the Palestinian people.
You cannot impose democracy on a country in one swoop, it took the USA 200 years and Britain nearly 800 years to get to the position we are in today, therefore you have to give it them like a blood transfusion, drip by drip…. that’s if they want democracy….. which nobody seems to have asked them.

greytop

20th August 2006, 11:37 AM

I’m personally glad that restrictions are now in place with regards to hand luggage, people were taking far too much on board and ramming the bags in the overhead lockers.

Agreed that hand luggage was getting out of hand but maybe because people fear that their hold baggage will be lost & to save time instead of joing the long queue at baggage reclaim!
With all the so-called strict security at airports how can a plane have the wrong or fewer than checked-in bags on board? Everything has barcodes on it and handheld readers or automatic detection with wireless links to their computers are not that expensive - similar systems work in industry to keep track right down to individual components of electronic assemblies. They'd rather take off with the hold half full than miss a take off slot while they look for missing items. Better a couple of disgruntled passengers than a plane load!
We are being fed the usual rubbish to make us feel better IMHO.
The comments from the budget airlines management about the cost of security in terms of aircraft turnround sums it all up.
We need to make a choice, safety and security or minimum cost.
<end of rant> :mad:

Marbella

20th August 2006, 11:57 AM

I don’t condone terrorists or suicide bombers, but we have to look at why these people are prepared to die for their cause, history will tell us that yesterdays freedom fighters/terrorists become tomorrows Nationalists.
We have to look at our foreign policies and stop trying to bring democracy overnight to the Middle East…..supporting policies that violate UN resolutions and ethnic cleanses the Palestinian people.
You cannot impose democracy on a country in one swoop, it took the USA 200 years and Britain nearly 800 years to get to the position we are in today, therefore you have to give it them like a blood transfusion, drip by drip…. that’s if they want democracy….. which nobody seems to have asked them.

You say that you don't condone terrorism but then you immediately go on to find an excuse for it. 52 people murdered in London by 4 British bombers. What "cause" should we look at that might justify those deaths? 23 British people now in custody suspected of attempting to cause the death of thousands of people of all races, colours and religions. What cause can you tell me about that might justify that action by British people? "Ethnic cleansing" of Palestinians by Britain? A new one on me.

Señora

20th August 2006, 12:24 PM

No, I certainly DO NOT condone terrorists, but people who started out as terrorists have later become prime ministers of their respective country.
I could be one of those innocent victims myself tomorrow, and I`m flying next Sunday morning to Spain.

The USA gives Israel 6 billion dollars worth of aid each year and Israel has now become the worlds 3rd largest equiped army.
The UK supports the USA `s policy on "war on terrorism" and therefore contributes to Israel`s illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the ethnic cleansing that is taking place.
Jewish settlers that are building homes where generations of Palestians have live, cutting them off from their crops and water, bulldozing their homes down regardless of whether the occupants are inside or not....I could go on.

The sad thing about all this is that Britain is to blame for carving up the middle east in 1948 and creating the state of Israel.
I`m not saying the state of Israel should not exist, but it is far too complicated to start out with on this Spanish forum.

gary

20th August 2006, 12:28 PM

Edith

20th August 2006, 01:46 PM

Señora, the Palestinians are not the only people in trouble... and they are not the only victims in this conflict, either - but that is a different discussion which I don't want to engage in here. Suffice it to say that instead of blaming the West for all their troubles, the Islamic world should sweep its own stoop first. Muslims have killed their fellow Muslims on a large scale in the last few decades (the Iran-Iraq war, the oppression of the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq; Darfur), yet this doesn't seem to bother anyone. I do not buy into Osama Bin Laden's argument that we in the West are largely responsible for the problems of the Muslim world. He is also trying to monopolize the sufferings of the Muslims (and of the Palestinians in particular), and he demonizes the West in a way which I find rather scary.

Why is it that the Tibetans (whose land has been occupied by the Chinese for more than 50 years) do not become terrorists? I have never heard the Dalai Lama advocate violence of any kind against the Chinese, nor do Tibetans target Chinese airlines or enterprises around the world. There is no Tibetan equivalent of Osama Bin Laden, Munich 1972, 9/11 or Madrid 11-M.

And why is it that Rigoberta Menchú, the Quiché Maya Nobel Peace prize laureate from Guatemala whose entire family was butchered by right-wing regimes, is not consumed by hatred like those Hamas and Hezbollah fanatics?

Why is it that the Armenians, who lost more than a million people at the hands of the Turks during the 1914-1915 Holocaust-like genocide, do not hijack planes or blow up buildings to remind the world of their plight? Most who survived the bloodbath lost everything and they had to leave Turkey forever. Today, Turkey denies the Armenian genocide ever happened. The West stood by and did nothing, yet I don't see any Armenian terrorists flying planes into scyscrapers to catch our attention.

Why is it that the Kurds never get any attention from the world community, except when they are needed as political allies? The Kurds are another people which ended up without a country of their own after the colonialist powers were done carving up the world, yet they do not attack the West, either. I have never heard of a PKK attack in London or New York.

Why is it that Nelson Mandela never advocated pushing the Afrikaners and other whites into the sea, even though his people have suffered a lot during the apartheid regime? This is what Syria, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah want to do to the Israelis.

Why is it that Indonesians take to the streets to demonstrate against the existence of Israel while their own government has engaged in large-scale genocide in East Timor, and while Djakarta still sends waves of Javanese settlers to occupy Papua lands?

IMO, those Hamas and Hezbollah people have a fascist mindset which is very dangerous because they are not interested in any kind of political compromise. They even use the Hitler salute during their political rallies. Osama Bin Laden and Iran want to do the same. What they would like to do is wipe out Israel, which would create another grave injustice. A true and lasting peace between both peoples is the only just solution to this conflict, and we should never forget that the world is ridden with other conflicts which also need to be solved. Its victims just happen to be a lot less vocal and they have less political clout than the Palestinians.

* end of rant *

greytop

20th August 2006, 02:09 PM

so what eactly was the cause of the Londo Bombers - 4 young men from Yorkshire who were born and lived in our community?

I do not think most of us who live within our own comfort zone can imagine what drives these people. I've recently been reading, from a young lady living in Iraq , award winning blogs (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/) posted over the last 3 years. She could have just as easily written similar from Afghanistan, Lebanon, the Gaza strip etc.
How can such situations not breed enough discontent to produce an endless stream of people desperate enough to do anything?
I believe that killing anyone is not justifiable, except in self defence and even then only if all else fails.
However, if you wanted to, you could gather up enough people willing to kill, and amenable to a form of brainwashing to believe implicitly in what you tell them, in most large cities anywhere in the world. Obviously there are those out there who do want to do this and no amount of logical discussion will ever dissuade them. Even if we eliminate today's excuses they will find others. Maybe it is just a power thing?
Better oppressed than dead? Discuss!

Señora

20th August 2006, 02:22 PM

Edith: I agree that the Palestinians are not the only people being persecuted in the world and all I’m trying to do is understand the situation.
However, the Tibetans are not trying to blow innocent civilians up on aeroplanes at this moment in time and whilst Saddam Hussein was murdering thousands of Kurds, I ask myself this question…
Was it Britain’s place to try and stop him, what about the surrounding Arab countries.?

Osma Bin Laden was trained/armed by the CIA to fight in Afghanistan and he was a freedom fighter, what caused him to become a terrorist and turn on his paymaster.?
Why, when we were supporting the USA did organisations in America fund the IRA to carry out a 30 year campaign of bombing British citizens.?

I don’t think that the Palestinians suffering is either being monopolised or exaggerated, and I truly believe that a vast majority have no idea of the conditions they are living in, but if we are going to allow American planes to land in Scotland for re-fuelling that are carrying bombs to Israel in which to carry out war crimes against the Lebanese people….and the UN have accepted that the response by Israel was disproportional, then we have to look at our foreign policies.

Let`s not forget that Israel was created on the back of terrorism and started out by acts of terrorism such as bombing the King David Hotel which was initially ordered by Menachem Begin, a terrorist who later became Israels Prime Minister.
IMO: We have to look at the cause and not the symptom.

gary

20th August 2006, 02:25 PM

Yeah, but why did four Yorkshiremen bomb London transport and what was gained?

Edith

20th August 2006, 02:37 PM

I do not think most of us who live within our own comfort zone can imagine what drives these people. How can such situations not breed enough discontent to produce an endless stream of people desperate enough to do anything?

What I have been trying to demonstrate with the examples I provided is: how come that others who live in similar circumstances do not resort to terrorism to gain the sympathy of the world? How many people know about the plight of the Tibetans, the people in Darfur, the Papuans, the East Timorese, the Kurds, the Maya Indians in Guatemala during the civil war, etc. etc. etc.?

Someone has told me that the children who live in Brazil's favelas are not much better off than Palestinian kids in Gaza because they, too, witness violence and killings on an almost daily basis. In some favelas, gang warfare has turned into virtual civil war among the poor and against the police. Who knows? Who cares?

Edith

20th August 2006, 02:44 PM

Señora, I still think our reaction against Israel and our sympathy for the Palestinians is disproportional. Many of those UN member states who condemn Israel engage in gross human rights violations themselves. I am a member of Amnesty International, so I have some idea of what's going on in the world and I see many of these nations are applying a double standard to cover up their own wrongdoings. People just have no idea of what's going on in Darfur, for instance. Nor do they seem to care. I do believe many people are blinded by their emotions and alas, the Muslim community in Europe watches too much hate propaganda from the Middle East.

Let's not forget why Israel was created in the first place - because the Jewish people needed a safe haven and a national homeland of their own after having survived the Holocaust. Europe has not been able to grant them any protection.

I also wonder why it is that Israel, whatever its mistakes may be - and there are many - constantly has to prove its right to exist while other nations do not have do do this. Many people do not know, either, that hundreds of thousands of Jews were ousted from Arab countries as well during the Palestinian exodus.

gary

20th August 2006, 02:48 PM

So exactly why did four Yorkshiremen bomb London transport and what was gained?

greytop

20th August 2006, 03:21 PM

So exactly why did four Yorkshiremen bomb London transport and what was gained?
Because they could
Because someone thought they should and convinced them to do so
No other reason needed, this is not a rational act and therefore has no rational explanation

gary

20th August 2006, 03:41 PM

Because they could
Because someone thought they should and convinced them to do so
No other reason needed, this is not a rational act and therefore has no rational explanation

That being the case there is no remedy so all the twittering on of Edith and Señora about foreighn policy and the middle east wont make a rats arse difference, but the bombers ought to be aware that they will create a difficult situation for other peaceful muslims and may even engender an atmosphere where extreme nationalism will flourish

Señora

20th August 2006, 05:08 PM

Edith, let’s not forget hun that it was the Europeans that persecuted the Jewish people not the Arabs, and before the state of Israel was created, Jewish Arabs (Hebrew) Christians and Muslims all lived side by side in relative peace in that area.

Homeland.? European Jews are Khazars, Mongols and Huns whose ancestors have never set a toe in the Middle East and in the time of Bible history, there was a geographic area known as Judea. Judea was a province of the Roman Empire. Now, a person who lived in Judea was known as a Judean, and in Latin it was Judaeus; in Greek it was Judaius.
When the bible was translated into English, Wycliffe the first translator used the word in referring to Jesus, as ‘gyu’, which went through many changes before the word Jew.

Anyway, I digress and don’t want to sound anti-semitic, but the fact remains that Israel has been the only country that has been allowed to violate countless UN resolutions and illegally occupy territory carrying out ethnic cleansing in Palestine.
America supplies Israel with bombs,tanks,guns and the latest fighter plane and we support America and that IMO is why we in Britain are targets.

The Islamic lunatics that have hijacked the religion Islam, infiltrate young impressional minds and fill them with hatred, just like the IRA did.
But, there are fanatical Zionists who have inflitrated the American government and who have an agenda of a "Jewish Commonwealth" in the Middle East.

Gary, me and Edith don`t twitter ;D and IMO the policies in the Middle East will make a difference, if you liberate the Palestinian people, then the majority of these terrorist will not have a cause to fight....well, certainly not the British public.

To swing it round to Spain.....did those poor innocent souls deserve to die in the Madrid bombings, RIP ? of course they didn`t, but the Spanish government got itself embroiled with American policies and lied to the Spanish people.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but....the people voted and ousted out the liars who tried to blame ETA and the new Government brought every Spanish soldier home from the Middle East.
We have to look at our foreign policies.

Marbella

20th August 2006, 05:14 PM

That being the case there is no remedy so all the twittering on of Edith and Señora about foreighn policy and the middle east wont make a rats arse difference, but the bombers ought to be aware that they will create a difficult situation for other peaceful muslims and may even engender an atmosphere where extreme nationalism will flourish

I agree.

Señora - like it or not, my view is that you are an apologist for terrorism. People like you and George Galloway give encouragement, as if they need it, to the extremists. You have a vote and you have a democratic right to peaceful protest against the elected government. Nobody has the right, whatever their grievance, to blow 52 people to pieces.

Señora

20th August 2006, 05:28 PM

I agree.

Señora - like it or not, my view is that you are an apologist for terrorism. People like you and George Galloway give encouragement, as if they need it, to the extremists. You have a vote and you have a democratic right to peaceful protest against the elected government. Nobody has the right, whatever their grievance, to blow 52 people to pieces.

Hang on a minute, I never said they did and until you look at why they are blowing people up, then you will never stop it.
I lived through 30 years of the IRA trying to blow me up, please don`t dismiss the cause and hope it will go away.
Peaceful protest,? yeh I`ll go on a peaceful protest while the lunatics drop a bomb on us and I will be using my vote wisely, just like the Spanish did.

Marbella

20th August 2006, 05:37 PM

Hang on a minute, I never said they did and until you look at why they are blowing people up, then you will never stop it.
I lived through 30 years of the IRA trying to blow me up, please don`t dismiss the cause and hope it will go away.
Peaceful protest,? yeh I`ll go on a peaceful protest while the lunatics drop a bomb on us and I will be using my vote wisely, just like the Spanish did.

You will NOT stop it no matter what you do. They are lunatics. Why can't you and your kind see that? Stop adding a 'but' into your sentences of codemnation.

Señora

20th August 2006, 05:53 PM

You will NOT stop it no matter what you do. They are lunatics. Why can't you and your kind see that? Stop adding a 'but' into your sentences of codemnation.

So if you are not going to stop it, what are you going to do.?
Live with it, bomb the cr@p out of them, have WW111.?
Me and my kind :o why didn`t we wipe Ireland off the map and save a lot of innocent people.? instead of letting 30 years of terrorism pass by and finally getting them around the negotiating table.

It`s an easy cop out to say you will not stop it and they are lunatics. Lunatics they may be, but until you come up with a positive alternative...what exactly do you propose to do....Live in fear.?

Marbella

20th August 2006, 06:05 PM

So if you are not going to stop it, what are you going to do.?
Live with it, bomb the cr@p out of them, have WW111.?
Me and my kind :o why didn`t we wipe Ireland off the map and save a lot of innocent people.? instead of letting 30 years of terrorism pass by and finally getting them around the negotiating table.

It`s an easy cop out to say you will not stop it and they are lunatics. Lunatics they may be, but until you come up with a positive alternative...what exactly do you propose to do....Live in fear.?

Oh I see:D. You get even more ridiculous. You want to negotiate with Al-Queda! Funny if not pathetic. On what grounds exactly would you negotiate? What would you give them in return for them agreeing not to kill us? Please tell...I can't wait to see what you come up with:D .

Edith

20th August 2006, 06:12 PM

Homeland.? European Jews are Khazars, Mongols and Huns .

:eek:

Oh no, that urban myth again, I'm outta here! I knew it would come to this. Any discussion on this subject does eventually.

Señora

20th August 2006, 06:14 PM

Oh I see:D. You get even more ridiculous. You want to negotiate with Al-Queda! Funny if not pathetic. On what grounds exactly would you negotiate? What would you give them in return for them agreeing not to kill us? Please tell...I can't wait to see what you come up with:D .
No, how about you coming up with a solution instead of sarcastic remarks.;D

Señora

20th August 2006, 06:18 PM

:eek:

Oh no, that urban myth again, I'm outta here! I knew it would come to this. Any discussion on this subject does eventually.

Not an urban myth Edith, and I`m outta here as well....let`s just hope I don`t get blown up next Sunday morning, flying is not my favourite pastime ;)

Marbella

20th August 2006, 06:22 PM

No, how about you coming up with a solution instead of sarcastic remarks.;D

Simple. It's Fermat's Last Theorem. There are no solutions.

Like Edith, I'm out of here. Welcome to the forum anyway; let's stick to talking with you about paella and flamenco shall we:) .

Edith

20th August 2006, 06:51 PM

Welcome to the forum anyway; let's stick to talking with you about paella and flamenco shall we:) .

:thumbs-up:

ValenciaSon

20th August 2006, 07:05 PM

Not an urban myth Edith, and I`m outta here as well....let`s just hope I don`t get blown up next Sunday morning, flying is not my favourite pastime ;)

Señora what is the source for your information on the origins of jews?

gary

20th August 2006, 07:43 PM

I agree.

Nobody has the right, whatever their grievance, to blow 52 people to pieces.

I couldnt agree more, and thats my last word on this thread....

ValenciaSon

20th August 2006, 09:34 PM

Señora what is the source for your information on the origins of jews?

I got this in a PM and responded accordingly:

Hiya VS.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trib08.htm#RACE%20AND%20MYTH

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite#Jews_as_Israelites

Whatever the historical origin of the Israelite tribes, each tribe had a distinct identity inherited from one's father as recently as 722 BCE, when the Assyrians conquered the northern Kingdom of Israel and sent its populace into exile. Individual tribes intermarried extensively throughout history. Many Israelites from the northern kingdom fled to the Southern Kingdom of Judah. At this point in time the tribes living in the Kingdom of Judah melded into a single people from all the Israelite tribes. In 586 BCE the nation of Judah was conquered by Babylon. About 50 years later, in 539 BCE the Persians (who conquered Babylon) allowed Jews to move back to Jerusalem. By the end of this era, members of the tribes seem to have abandoned their individual identities.

Besos x
Señora
So where in your references are there facts that back up your statement proving that "European Jews are Khazars, Mongols and Huns"? I couldn't find it in Wikipedia.

It's also not clear that they were confined to Judea, the Roman state.

No offense but I have a hard time taking anything as fact from a web site called :biblebelievers.org