Good job Madrid

[cubix]

Finally someone has taken a stand on this issue

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060908/lf_afp/afplifestylefashion_060908143012

[Edith]

Finally someone has taken a stand on this issue

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060908/lf_afp/afplifestylefashion_060908143012


I agree wholeheartedly with you! It's a subject I feel passionately about because I think it's an aberration in our culture, akin to Chinese foot-binding or corset-wearing in the Victorian age. These practices were all very harmful to women and what's interesting from an anthropological point of view is the fact that very few cultures impose such physically impairing standards of beauty on the men. As a rule of thumb, men would never submit themselves to such oppressive cultural practices, yet women often will. (of course, tatooing as practiced among Polynesian men is sheer torture, but the physical discomfort disappears after a while and leaves them unscathed)

These super-skinny women are bad role models for adolescent girls, very bad role models indeed. When I was still in school, I remember being frustrated by the fact that I could not be like them, simply due to genetics because I'm not built that way. In my case, it didn't lead to any serious problems. My GP told me my body mass index was perfectly normal. Some girls who are emotionally unstable may develop actual mental disorders, like anorexia or bulimia. These two eating disorders are culturally determined; Argentina appears to have the highest incidence of anorexia among young girls and women in the world.

The reason why some people find these fashion models beautiful beats me, anyway. They don't look very healthy and they are made to walk down the catwalk in a funny way, as if they are perpetually angry. Many women who practice some kind of sport look much more attractive physically because of their lean musculature and because of the supple way in which they move.

* steps off soapbox * ;)

[ValenciaSon]

Those who pine for the anorexic models are girls who want to be anorexic models. I don't know of any men whose idea of a desirable woman is a model (the exception of course are the voluptuos models). I don't think women go through all that to please men, they go through it to please their modelling agency.

As far as men not escaping avoidable physical torture, lets not forget circumcision.

[ogando]

I can see your point on models being too thin, but it doesn't seem to have affected many americans who keep getting larger each year. Models do seem to be a different species at times, getting taller and thinner.
This photo is from the upcoming spring 2007 collections:

[Edith]

I don't know of any men whose idea of a desirable woman is a model.

You've got a good point there! :) Now we have got to ask ourselves: who runs the modeling agencies?

[Edith]

I can see your point on models being too thin, but it doesn't seem to have affected many americans who keep getting larger each year. Models do seem to be a different species at times, getting taller and thinner.
This photo is from the upcoming spring 2007 collections:

That's why doctors use the BMI (Body Mass Index), which is a fairly objective measure of healthy body weight. Many people on both ends of the obesity - anorexia continuum seem to be totally out of touch with common sense notions of what is healthy and what is not.

BTW, is this picture for real? I can hardly believe it. Very unsettling! If true, there should be a law against these kinds of publicity campaigns. This woman is killing herself and she is stimulating others to embark on a similar course of action. It's like saying 'using heroin is cool'.

[ValenciaSon]

You've got a good point there! :) Now we have got to ask ourselves: who runs the modeling agencies?



I don't think the motive at that level are men who seek to oppress women. Its a business industry consisting of corporate entities whose desires lie in profit.

[greytop]

Its a business industry consisting of corporate entities whose desires lie in profit.
Which brings us back to the original post. If more people in the fashion industry adopt this approach there will be no profit in selling bony models. Well done Madrid indeed.
Mind you, not all the top models seem to be anorexic See these fine examples (http://www.models.com/)

On a wider front the whole beauty industry has a lot to answer for, not just the fashion branch. I always thought women went through the make-up, beauty routine, dressing up etc. for other women mainly. But as a mere man what do I know? Must go, the wife's calling.

[Brian]

Bravo for those who set the standard in Madrid! I hate what the modeling industry is doing to these impressionable young women, as they try to adhere to an impossible standard just to move product off the shelf. These impossibly skinny women are destroying their bodies, minds, and lives for a few years of stardom, then cast aside for the next generation.

Is there any difference between this, and the sweatshops in third-world countries, where workers are exploited for slave wages? I think not.

[Brian]

I don't know of any men whose idea of a desirable woman is a model (the exception of course are the voluptuos models).

I agree. I never found the vulnerable heroin addict look to be very attractive, either. :(

[Edith]

Which brings us back to the original post. If more people in the fashion industry adopt this approach there will be no profit in selling bony models. Well done Madrid indeed.
Mind you, not all the top models seem to be anorexic See these fine examples (http://www.models.com/)

On a wider front the whole beauty industry has a lot to answer for, not just the fashion branch. I always thought women went through the make-up, beauty routine, dressing up etc. for other women mainly. But as a mere man what do I know? Must go, the wife's calling.

Or good-looking women like Jennifer Lopez and Marilyn Monroe? But personally, I'm more interested in good-looking men, like David Duchovny (of X-Files fame) for instance... ;D Imagine an emaciated David Duchovny... no way!



http://www.delos.fantascienza.com/delos57/img/duchovny/duchovny.jpg

Back to the subject: Kudos to the Madrid fashion industry for reversing the trend.

[Marbella]

I really despise the pretentiousness of the fashion industry but it is true that clothes look better on slim people. It'd be much more interesting to see more models carrying a few more pounds than they should have. How amusing to see a chubby lass squeezed into a pair of hotpants, stitches almost bursting under the strain. Or a lad with a nice big beer gut wearing one of those tight fitting shirts that just won't stretch over his navel.

[Edith]

I really despise the pretentiousness of the fashion industry but it is true that clothes look better on slim people. It'd be much more interesting to see more models carrying a few more pounds than they should have. How amusing to see a chubby lass squeezed into a pair of hotpants, stitches almost bursting under the strain. Or a lad with a nice big beer gut wearing one of those tight fitting shirts that just won't stretch over his navel.

It's not a question of being slim, it's a question of being malnourished and severely underweight. These people have a BMI which concerns doctors and nutritionists alike. From a medical point of view, many of these these models are ill, not slim. They are not normal. Most of them will pay the price for their eating disorder at some point in their lives. They may already have stopped menstruating, which is a sure sign of something being very wrong. Most female athletes (except for the weight lifters and wrestlers) don't have any excess body fat, yet they are too 'fat' for the fashion industry. Sick! Besides, I have never seen a male fashion model being morbidly underweight. It seems to be a woman thing only.

[Marbella]

Oh of course there are a few that are anorexic or bulimic but I don't think it's that many really. The clothes designers want to sell clothes so it would backfire to put too many models too fat or too thin on the catwalk. Female athletes rarely have a feminine shape so they don't look that good as clothes hangers. Tennis players are usually ok, but shotputters and weightlifters just wouldn't look right.

[ValenciaSon]

So Madrid is doing an admirable job in filtering the message sent by anorexic models to impressionable young ladies. Now all they have to do is get a hold on the traffic mishaps and the individuals refusing to pay for their restaurant meals :rolleyes:

[Edith]

Female athletes rarely have a feminine shape

Then what is a 'feminine shape' according to you? A woman who doesn't take part in any physical exercise? :rolleyes:

In West Africa, people venerate the morbidly obese because they think these women are the epitome of femininity. So did our prehistorical ancestors if I am to go by some of the fertility goddess statues they left us. In the Victorian Age, suicidal corsets were the big thing in Europe. So many cultures, so many aberrations. Antropologists have studied this subject at length!

P.s.: Apart from diets and exercise, people are different physically because of their genetical makeup. Some of these 'unfeminine' women you refer to may be classical mesomorphs: stocky and physically strong, prone to put on muscle (or fat, if they aren't careful). The average fashion model is an ectomorph (on the other extreme of the physical spectrum). Some of the Nilotic tribes in southern Sudan, like the Nuer or the Dinka, are classical ectomprphs.

NUER PEOPLE

http://www.ecs.org.et/Dios/Gamb/John%20B4.jpg

[Marbella]

Then what is a 'feminine shape' according to you? A woman who doesn't take part in any physical exercise? :rolleyes:

In West Africa, people venerate the morbidly obese because they think these women are the epitome of femininity. So did our prehistorical ancestors if I am to go by some of the fertility goddess statues they left us. In the Victorian Age, suicidal corsets were the big thing in Europe. So many cultures, so many aberrations. Antropologists have studied this subject at length!

P.s.: Apart from diets and exercise, people are different physically because of their genetical makeup. Some of these 'unfeminine' women you refer to may be classical mesomorphs: stocky and physically strong, prone to put on muscle (or fat, if they aren't careful). The average fashion model is an ectomorph (on the other extreme of the physical spectrum). Some of the Nilotic tribes in southern Sudan, like the Nuer or the Dinka, are like that.


You've lost me now talking about anthropology and African tribes. Good on Madrid for not using models who look ill. Seems like a no-brainer to me. I actually would like to give credit to the 99.99% of women who don't have an eating disorder because they want to look like a catwalk model. Do you really see that many emaciated girls walking along your high street, because I don't. A lot of overweight ones, but not super skinny.

Many women athletes look a bit butch, but that doesn't mean that they can't look nice. I just mean that they're not going to look good on the runway wearing a dress and high-heels, that's all.

[Edith]

Sorry Marbella, but I am an anthropologist. I can't help looking at society from that particular intercultural angle! Anthros don't take cultural values for granted, they question, disect and analyze them. Some cultures may actually value so-called 'butches' (a value judgment in itself) instead of helpless damsels. I don't take Western culture - or any other culture, for that matter - for granted. That is just what we were trained to do and that is what we are. :rolleyes:

[Marbella]

Sorry Marbella, but I am an anthropologist. I can't help looking at society from that particular intercultural angle! Anthros don't take cultural values for granted, they question, disect and analyze them. Some cultures may actually value so-called 'butches' (a value judgment in itself) instead of helpless damsels. I don't take Western culture - or any other culture, for that matter - for granted. That is just what we were trained to do and that is what we are. :rolleyes:

I still can't see the connection between a fashion show in Europe and an African tribe.

[Jon Hundt]

here in Holland they just had a competition to select the next "top model". There were a dozen or so contestants, none older than sixteen, many were 14 years old. At the same time there is a big debate going on here because a bunch of wackos want to legitimize pedophilia and create a political party for that purpose. Ha-ha-ha! See any connection? Of course this has nothing to do with Spain or Spanish!

[Edith]

here in Holland they just had a competition to select the next "top model". There were a dozen or so contestants, none older than sixteen, many were 14 years old. At the same time there is a big debate going on here because a bunch of wackos want to legitimize pedophilia and create a political party for that purpose. Ha-ha-ha! See any connection? Of course this has nothing to do with Spain or Spanish!

Yes I know, and it's sooo disgusting! (unfortunately, there is no green smilie depicting disgust) I hope this party will never get off the ground, it's a disgrace for Holland.

Isn't it remarkable that most artists throughout history never depicted the kind of woman preferred by the fashion industry? At least I can't think of any. A fine example from Spain is La maja desnuda by Goya:


http://www.trazegnies.arrakis.es/maja.jpg

And an example from modern digital art...


http://www.robertocampus.com/tutorials/goddess_tutorial_01.jpg

[Marbella]

Yes I know, and it's sooo disgusting! (unfortunately, there is no green smilie depicting disgust) I hope this party will never get off the ground, it's a disgrace for Holland.

Isn't it remarkable that most artists throughout history never depicted the kind of woman preferred by the fashion industry? At least I can't think of any. A fine example from Spain is La maja desnuda by Velázquez:


You seem to be confusing what is attractive to men/women and what makes a good clothes hanger. The woman in Goya's painting looks ok'ish to me but is a little bit on the heavy side. Her BMI would probably indicate that she should go to an aerobics class to shift some of the puppy fat.

The Times reported yesterday that although the fashion show in Madrid was a minnow compared to London, Paris or New York, one of Spain's top models, Esther Cañadas, would have failed the test and been excluded. I think she looks amazing so the BMI fails to take into account muscle density etc.

http://www.webwombat.com.au/lifestyle/fashion_beauty/images/canadas3.JPG

[Edith]

You seem to forget that it's real people, not clotheshangers, who will want to wear this clothing and look good in them. If they need clotheshangers they might as well put some puppets on show. ;D And that's what some of these models look like anyway. I have been told their pictures in the catalogues are digitally altered to make them look even more like plastic manniquins.

[ValenciaSon]

Aren't the best clothing hangers the ones with a little padding?:rolleyes:

[Brian]

Aren't the best clothing hangers the ones with a little padding?:rolleyes:

Those ARE good, but I like the form-fitting ones that simulate the angles of your body, so that your clothes don't get deformed! :D

As Joan Crawford put it, "No more wire hangers!!!!!!!"

I'm afraid that this thread is getting hopelessly off-topic.

[Edith]

:D

Back to Goya perhaps, and la maja desnuda?

I was thinking of Spanish painters in general when I pasted that picture onto the post, and before I knew it I had written down the name of Velázquez instead of Goya. Despistada, ¡como de siempre! :blush: :blush: :blush:

[Brian]

Isn't it remarkable that most artists throughout history never depicted the kind of woman preferred by the fashion industry?

Back to the topic: Except that our concept of beauty has changed over the centuries. 300 or 400 years ago, a woman considered desirable was fleshy, even a bit plump. Perhaps this is because extreme thin-ness would have been associated with poverty and starvation?

[celia s]

Thanks Edith for your comments.
This is a topic that worries me too.What concerns me even more is the amount of women that are willing to undergo plastic surgery to enhance their looks.
I hardly ever watch TV these days because I am so fed up with the way that women are marketed.It does nothing to empower women and it makes me feel very angry.
Why have we become such a superficial society??

[richardksa]

Could it not just be a matter of economics? The smaller the model, the less the cost of material. And if all models are the same stick thin size, then if one falls sick, any other model could show the dress off on the cat walk. With a woman with curves, however, to show off the frock to the best advantage, it would take a special fitting and the dress could be displayed on her alone. I mean, we are not talking ready to wear here.

Anyway, I'm long past the stage of finding women attractive for their looks alone, they have to be rich, er no! They have to have a mind as well. Any model that would be so self-obsessed to keep her body that thin would not be my choice.

[Edith]

In the past, extreme thin-ness would certainly have been associated with deprivation, and in some cultures it still is. Some non-Western cultures even go to the other extreme by venerating the morbidly obese, like some societies in sub-Saharan Africa. I will never forget the NGC documentary footage of a Tuareg girl in Mauritania who was literally being force-fed by her female relatives so she would be fat and plump by the time she was eligible for marriage. Many Mauritanian women suffer from adult-onset diabetes because of this custom. :( Why do people (women) often have to go to such extremes in order to feel accepted by society?