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Old 22nd July 2008, 03:19 PM   #41
richardksa
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Originally Posted by gastephen View Post
I remember having a discussion before about cot/caught sounding the same or not (and, of course, their pronunciations are identical ).
It's that north south divide. We'll be arguing about "bath" and "bath" soon, much to the confusion of non-brits.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 04:01 PM   #42
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It's that north south divide. We'll be arguing about "bath" and "bath" soon, much to the confusion of non-brits.
The mail thing is that we agree on the way to pronounce 'lager'
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Old 22nd July 2008, 06:07 PM   #43
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Cot and caught are distinctly different in refined, higher (american) english Next round of lager is on me. Did I say that right?
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Old 22nd July 2008, 06:10 PM   #44
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Cot and caught are distinctly different in refined, higher (american) english Next round of lager is on me. Did I say that right?
there is no wrong way to say its your round
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Old 22nd July 2008, 07:56 PM   #45
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dont let pepino see this he'll be waking up in a cold sweat
Believe me, it's not just Pepino that gazes on that tongue mangler with horror! "It's easy", they say. "Just shove your tongue hard up against the back of your upper teeth .... and breathe out forcefully". A "friend" had me walking along the street with two of my finders pushing hard against the underside of the tongue. "Push against your fingers", she said, while people tried to pretend they weren't looking. All to no avail. Must be genetic!!!!!
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Old 22nd July 2008, 08:46 PM   #46
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I reckon everyone can do it.
When I decided to learn a language, I chose Spanish on a whim, but one thing that put me off was that, there was no way I could roll an 'rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr'
Never, never, never.

But I did it. My starting point was very high volume and quite high pitch. It took a while but it came. I still can't make it sound natural and fit it in ultra-naturally to the rest of the conversation, but I've got something to work on.

I used to do it at work v high volume GOAL RRRRRRRRRRRONALDO! Now I'm trying to make it sound natural and I think I'm gonna try one of those ferracarril things every day.

Altogether now GOAL RRRRRRRRRRRONALDO!
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Old 22nd July 2008, 09:59 PM   #47
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If anyone wants me, IŽll be in the corner having a nervous breakdown. IŽll try to keep it quiet.
Here you go...
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Old 22nd July 2008, 10:08 PM   #48
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I'm sure you're making half of these words up.
Only half?

I take it, then, that you are not familiar with Bill Barker's erstwhile line in alien defence products? Or, more, prosaically, this.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 10:16 PM   #49
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It's that north south divide. We'll be arguing about "bath" and "bath" soon, much to the confusion of non-brits.
As in "Baaaaath Spaaaaaa"?
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Old 22nd July 2008, 10:32 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by richardksa View Post
All to no avail. Must be genetic!!!!!
I couldn't pronounce the (Scottish) 'r' pwopehly as a child and remember briefly having to have speech therapy in order to overcome my 'disability'. Of course, it's way too long ago now to remember any of the particular excercises, but they must have worked whatever they were.

I don't really know how to describe how to do it, but I agree that a lot of the advice you see about placing your tongue on the alveloar ridge and then 'blowing' doesn't really sound to me as if it would be too helpful. If I consciouly try to follow that advice I find the tip of my tongue remaining stationary. Maybe the trick would be to try forming a rapid succession of single-flap r's. Start with the mouth in the wide open 'a' position, then close it somewhat and tap the tip of the tongue against the gum ridge behind the top teeth, and repeat as quickly as you can. This might kick start the beginnings of the tongue vibration of the trill.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 11:01 PM   #51
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My son taught himself to trill when he was 3.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 11:36 PM   #52
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My son taught himself to trill when he was 3.
But he's a Son of a Valencia Son.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 12:31 AM   #53
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But he's a Son of a Valencia Son.
True that!
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Old 23rd July 2008, 10:13 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepino View Post
If anyone wants me, IŽll be in the corner having a nervous breakdown. IŽll try to keep it quiet.
Here's the simple answer put on the web by a serial poster called lazarus:
Position: The tip of the tongue should be pressed lightly against the alveolar ridge (like the 'd' or 't' in American English, which are the closest sounds to the Spanish 'r') or slightly above it if it doesn't work. The tongue should be elevated, flat, and pressing hard against the upper teeth on both sides, so that the air has no option but making its way through pushing the tip of the tongue.

Tension: While the sides of the tongue maintain a considerable tension to prevent the air from escaping laterally, the tip of the tongue should be slightly more relaxed to allow the air to push it, but keeping a little of tension and flexibility so that it quickly returns to its original position after the burst (due to its natural elasticity -don't try to move it yourself), only to be pushed again by the continuous air stream that will build up pressure again on the roof of the mouth.

Other details: A typical R vibrates two to three times, and you don't have to move your tongue during the process; only maintain the right posture and tension on each part of the tongue. If your tongue is not correctly positioned, or is too lax on its sides, the air will escape and you'll get no sound. If the tip of your tongue is too tense, the air will force its way out through the sides; if your tip is too relaxed, the air will push it, but it will not return to its original position making it thrill.

See it working: You can observe how this works if you close your lips and try to blow: too soft and you just blow air gently; too hard and your mouth will turn into a balloon; get the right pressure, and you'll be making an R with your lips. Ask any Spanish speaker to try to say "rana" articulating the R with his lips instead of the tongue, and you'll see how he struggles at the beginning to get the right pressure (due to lack of practice, of course) in order to produce a clear sound. The proper R is no different.

It's really that easy
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