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Old 2nd December 2009, 10:13 PM   #1
La Podenquera
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Default Valenciano - Katalan or a dialect of castellano? ?

I didn't know under which post I'm suposed to post this
I am a little confused over valenciano. I have friends who lives around Alicante and Valencia. First one of them told me he was speaking katalan. Another friend of mine said she spoke Valenciano which acording to her is a dialect of castellano. Then this first friend of mine also said he spoke valenciano and that it was the same as katalan. Can someone please help me out with this confusion of mine?
What is valenciano?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 10:51 PM   #2
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Default A non-Spanish view

Catalan is spoken mainly in the Northeast (Barcelona region) and the islands in the Mediterranean.
Valencian is very similar but not the same as Catalan and is spoken mainly in the Valencian region. The Valencians get upset by what they see as a takeover by the Catalans if their language is described as a dialect. The arguments have gone on for many years and will probably continue for many more. There is currently a fight going on to get TV rights for Catalan channels to be broadcast in the Valencian region after they were taken off air.
Looking at the written version of either you can see many similarities to Castellano (which we guiris call Spanish) but the spoken language sounds quite different. It is also subject to dialect variations as you move around the area.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 11:37 PM   #3
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I was there two weeks ago and they now have channels on catalán/valenciano, I can't hear the difference and all the roadsigns are in both castellano and catalán. But I was told that soon there would only be signs in catalán/valenciano.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 05:33 AM   #4
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Here in Pego that already happens. Street names, parking restrictions, council notices are usually only Valencian. Some roadsigns also.
It's just something you learn to live with and causes most of us very few problems.
If you go to a government/council office they will address you in Valencian but will also speak Castellano if you wish. If you want an "official" job you'll be expected to speak Valencian.
So you need to be aware that no parking mes par / mes impar means even or odd months. Xaló = Jalon, Xabia = Javea, dilluns, dimarts, dimecres = Mon Tues Wed, xiquet = child
Try the Wiki for more info.

For a search site in Valencian, Castellano, English or French try trobat.
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Old 3rd December 2009, 10:58 AM   #5
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Thank you greytop
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Old 3rd December 2009, 09:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greytop View Post
Catalan is spoken mainly in the Northeast (Barcelona region) and the islands in the Mediterranean.
Valencian is very similar but not the same as Catalan and is spoken mainly in the Valencian region. The Valencians get upset by what they see as a takeover by the Catalans if their language is described as a dialect. The arguments have gone on for many years and will probably continue for many more.
Mmmm... Not quite like that. According to all (serious, prestigious) linguists they're the same language under different names. "Valencian" is often used to describe a heterogeneous block of dialects of the western Catalan variety (also spoken in half the community of Catalunya and parts of Aragon and Murcia) roughly covering the nowadays Comunitat Valenciana. The difference between this variety and the eastern one (the other half of Catalunya, the islands, Andorra, south of France and a city in Sardinia) is actually less than the one between US and UK English.
Actually most Valencian-speakers agree with this, except in some areas around the cities of València and Elx. The hypotesis of the different languages appeared around the 60s-70s and had a great popular support until the end of the 80s (the hatred against the terrorist group Terra Lliure helped keeping this alive until they disbanded). Nowadays most groups supporting that they're different languages are linked to either Spanish moderate centralist parties (PP, PSOE) or extreme right-wing Spanish supremacist groups (España 2000 and the like). The idea has somehow caught on Spanish monolingual's heads in the area, so they appear to have some support in the biggest cities (there's a higher percentage of Spanish-speakers, supporting PP/PSOE).
Nowadays the debate is mostly centered on if we share a same "cultural heritage" or not, not on the issue of language.

Most of the confusion around this language/dialect idea arises from a lack of knowledge about the terminology: Nobody speaks a language, everybody speaks a dialect of that language. Take English for example: Someone from London, someone from Sidney and someone from Seattle all speak different dialects of English; the "English language" in itself is nothing but an idea, a set of general rules that groups all of those dialects together. So nobody directly speaks English but a dialect. Same goes for all languages.
Imagine we were talking about food instead of languages; several people might eat meat (representing the language) but eat it under different forms (dialects): pork meat, lamb meat, chicken meat... It makes no sense to say someone eats the meat itself in a "pure" form while others are eating meat from a specific animal (as in, "I'm eating meat but you're eating pork" = "I speak the language but you speak a dialect"; they're both the same language but different dialects = they're both meat but from different animals).

Espere haver-te sigut d'ajuda

Last edited by Kralizec; 3rd December 2009 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 4th December 2009, 05:07 AM   #7
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Excuse me for my por knowledge in geographia but were is P.Cat.????
And thank you for your explanation.
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Old 4th December 2009, 05:11 AM   #8
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Excuse me for my por knowledge in geographia but were is P.Cat.????
In what respect? Is it mentioned above?
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Old 4th December 2009, 07:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post

Most of the confusion around this language/dialect idea arises from a lack of knowledge about the terminology: Nobody speaks a language, everybody speaks a dialect of that language. Take English for example: Someone from London, someone from Sidney and someone from Seattle all speak different dialects of English; the "English language" in itself is nothing but an idea, a set of general rules that groups all of those dialects together. So nobody directly speaks English but a dialect. Same goes for all languages.
I am afraid I will have to disagree. Can you explain to me what sort of dialect do I speak? I have learnt English in Spain and lived in the UK in seven different places over the years in England and Wales. Or am I the only person who can master my "dialect"? And now I speak English (the language, not a dialect) in Madrid

What about somebody who is from Barcelona but also has lived in Andalusia and Zamora?

I think your example of London is a bad one considering how cosmopolitan it is. There is, of course, cockney in a very small part of London, and the south London accent is quite distinctive as well, but you cannot say that there is a London dialect. Probably the most spoken language in London is international English spoken by most of the foreigners, but that is not a dialect.

Last edited by Pippa; 4th December 2009 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 4th December 2009, 10:12 AM   #10
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Well, I disagree with some things.
But I´ll be brief: I was born in Barcelona. My father is "catalán". In Cataluña they speak catalán that is similar to Valenciano.... but not the same! In Comunidad Valenciana they don´t speak catalán.
All this languages (catalán, valenciano, gallego, euskera) had been always considered as dialectos, but I think, now adays, they are considered as languages. (Cataluña also think they will be an independient country.... some day.........)
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Old 4th December 2009, 01:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Rubia View Post
Well, I disagree with some things.
But I´ll be brief: I was born in Barcelona. My father is "catalán". In Cataluña they speak catalán that is similar to Valenciano.... but not the same! In Comunidad Valenciana they don´t speak catalán.
Well, I was born (and currently live) in a town halfway between València and Alacant, and have some family from Barcelona (so I hear them often), and I'm telling you it's the same language. The only differences are the pronunciation of some vowels in certain positions, and maybe 20 words. All Catalan-speakers perfectly understand Valencian, and all Valencian-speakers perfectly understand Catalan; maybe there might be some occassional words that either of them wouldn't understand (though they're rare) but every language has its localisms.
In fact I once met a guy from a small town up in the Pyrenees, and not only did I perfectly understand him, but until he told me where he was from I thought he was from some nearby town. That's the level of similarity inside each variant (western/eastern).

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All this languages (catalán, valenciano, gallego, euskera) had been always considered as dialectos, but I think, now adays, they are considered as languages.
No, the francoist regime (and hence most Spanish born during those years) considered them as "dialects" in their own definition, as some kind of "malformed Spanish".
Keep in mind that a dialect is an expression of a language, and nobody directly speaks the language (see my previous post up there).
Catalan (or Valencian) was originally considered a separate romance language, then the same language as Occitan (the nearest language, spoken in southern France) during the 19th century, and then again a language of its own. This is all according to linguists; the Catalan-Valencian separation is not supported by linguistics but only by politics, and didn't appear at least until the 60s.
Gallego/Galego was first thought to be Portuguese, then a Portuguese-Spanish transition language, and there's actually a division between some linguists defending it to be a separate language and other linguists who think it's Portuguese.
Euskera has always been considered a separate language, it's different enough to be impossible to relate to any nearby language.

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(Cataluña also think they will be an independient country.... some day.........)

Well, that's politics, not linguistics. Some think we should remain in Spain and France, some think only their territory should be independent (this one's rare outside the part of Catalunya owned by the Spanish state), some think most of the Catalan-speaking area should be one independent country, and some (like me) think we should be a union of 3 confederated, independent, Catalan-speaking countries (País Valencià [the spanish-speaking areas would have to choose if they remain], Principat [the Catalunya community + Franja de Ponent + Catalunya Nord] and Ses Illes [Balears + Pitïuses Islands]).
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Old 4th December 2009, 06:38 PM   #12
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Valenciano, catalán, ibicenco, mallorquí, menorquí... all dialects of the same language. All experts agree on this -philologists and linguists I mean. Everything else is pure political discussion. But none of them are dialects of Castillian. Neither is Galician.
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Old 5th December 2009, 06:08 PM   #13
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Please just simplyfie it for a stupid swede. Valenciano is a dialect of catalán? I don't need any deeper understanding of it
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Old 5th December 2009, 06:26 PM   #14
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Please just simplyfie it for a stupid swede. Valenciano is a dialect of catalán? I don't need any deeper understanding of it
No, it is the same language but they call it valenciano in the area of el País Valenciano (Castellón, Valencia y Alicante)

One thing you will have to learn of Spain and the Spaniards is that there is never a straight answer, there will be at least two different opinions of everything.
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Old 5th December 2009, 06:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
... ...One thing you will have to learn of Spain and the Spaniards is that there is never a straight answer, there will be at least two different opinions of everything.
Only two????
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Old 5th December 2009, 06:34 PM   #16
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Only two????
Well, I only wanted to simplify things, or we may scare her...
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Old 5th December 2009, 06:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
No, it is the same language but they call it valenciano in the area of el País Valenciano (Castellón, Valencia y Alicante)

One thing you will have to learn of Spain and the Spaniards is that there is never a straight answer, there will be at least two different opinions of everything.
Not the same language. I carried a conversation with an Italian with myself speaking in Spanish and her in her language. Does that make Spanish and Italian the same language? Valencian predates Catalan so how can Valencian be the same? I'm trying to go on logic here, not regionalism, provincialism or politics. I think it has to be defined in this discussion that a dialect is a version of a language. Since regional langauages of Spain are not versions of Castilian, the Franco tendency to refer to them as dialects is incorrect.
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Old 5th December 2009, 06:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
No, it is the same language but they call it valenciano in the area of el País Valenciano (Castellón, Valencia y Alicante)

One thing you will have to learn of Spain and the Spaniards is that there is never a straight answer, there will be at least two different opinions of everything.
Tell me about it. I have a helltime to read my spanish mails because of it
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Old 5th December 2009, 06:57 PM   #19
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I don't think I have mentioned the word dialect in what I said.
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Old 5th December 2009, 07:57 PM   #20
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Hola
¿Puede alguien recomendar un diccionario online castellano-catalán-euskera?


Gracias
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