Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum Learn REAL Spanish now!  

Go Back   Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum > Spanish Forum > Spanish Basics - Vocab and Grammar Q & A

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 22nd April 2010, 01:21 AM   #1
duncan_m
n00b espanol en Australia
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 137
Default Estado.. Estar and State.

I was relistening to some Michel Thomas stuff last night and he made an interesting point about the verb "estar".. as we all know its often translated as "to be" and causes all sorts of problems for learners with its buddy "ser" which also means "to be"..

Michel pointed out that the United States is "los Estados Unidos".. Estado is the past participle of "estar".. In the case of the los Estados Unidos the "States" aren't "being".. they are united.

The point being, estar is really a verb indicating "to be in a state".. I'm in the state of being sick.. estoy infermo, I am in the state of being here.. estoy aquí.. I am in the state of happiness.. estoy feliz...

Using the concept of a "state" seems a much neater way of teaching the meaning of "estar".

Duncan.

Last edited by duncan_m; 22nd April 2010 at 06:10 AM.
duncan_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 01:47 AM   #2
DaveKotschessa
Forero Senior
 
DaveKotschessa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 69
Default

I think you just blew my mind.
DaveKotschessa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 06:01 AM   #3
duncan_m
n00b espanol en Australia
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 137
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKotschessa View Post
I think you just blew my mind.
Espero que sea una cosa buena

Duncan.

Last edited by duncan_m; 22nd April 2010 at 06:03 AM.
duncan_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 04:39 PM   #4
blogger
Forero Senior
 
blogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Madrid
Posts: 90
Default

Hello Duncan, I don't know who Michel Thomas is, but he's got a philosophical streak which I like.

Anyway, he think he is making things more complex than they really are.

"Estado" is a noun, not a participle, in this case. It is true that it is a noun derived from a participle. Like "cociente" (= quotient) in maths, though nobody would try and link "cociente" to any boiling characteristic of the question. Well, perhaps Michel Thomas would.

The relationship with the verb is that an "estado" is a kind of entity (abstract of concrete) which could change, as an opposition to an essence (which is more related to the verb ser (< essere, in Latin).

So, when I am not feeling very well I could say: "No me encuentro en buen estado". But it is not definite, I hope it will change.

"Estado" (for a State) is a concept which developed with Modernity, to mean that a national entity could be represented by any shape people agreed on. So the UK is an "estado", as opposed to any identity or essence such as being English, Scottisch or Welsh... (I don't know if that is an essence in itself, but some people wish their roots were).

So, the Estado británico would survive even if the Scots decided to separate, because its shape is arbitrary; whereas Scotland would not subsist if the Scots all decided they would separate, because the essence (the people making it) would have vanished.

I accused Michel Thomas of making things complex, and I guess I might have messed things further up.
blogger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 09:22 PM   #5
frangels
Forero
 
frangels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: MADRID
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKotschessa View Post
I think you just blew my mind.
My brains have hit the ceiling!!
frangels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 09:45 PM   #6
duncan_m
n00b espanol en Australia
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 137
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blogger View Post
It is true that it is a noun derived from a participle.
Yes which leads me to believe that there's some historical connection In any event "estar", at least for me now, is easier to understand when I think of it as describing a transient state..

After struggling with ser and estar and puzzling at the stupidity of a language that would have two verbs for the same job.. I'm now at a point where I'm wondering why we don't have such a commonly used, useful fine distinction in English.. :-)

Duncan.
duncan_m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 10:47 PM   #7
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan_m View Post
Yes which leads me to believe that there's some historical connection In any event "estar", at least for me now, is easier to understand when I think of it as describing a transient state..

After struggling with ser and estar and puzzling at the stupidity of a language that would have two verbs for the same job.. I'm now at a point where I'm wondering why we don't have such a commonly used, useful fine distinction in English.. :-)

Duncan.
BTW I believe the Spanish have similar problems with the verbs "to do" and "to make" (they only have the verb "hacer").
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 11:18 PM   #8
kenpeace
Super Forero
 
kenpeace's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chester, UK
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
BTW I believe the Spanish have similar problems with the verbs "to do" and "to make" (they only have the verb "hacer").

... and don't get anyone started on the ridiculous number of compound verbs in English. There are 100s of examples....
To stand
To stand up
To stand down
To shut
To shut up
To shut down

Imagine how hard they must be for non natives.
kenpeace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 11:20 PM   #9
kenpeace
Super Forero
 
kenpeace's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chester, UK
Posts: 214
Default

... OK, OK - don't shoot me. It seems that these are not compound verbs but some other type of verb with a name that I forgot.

Anyway they are hard to learn whatever they are called.
kenpeace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010, 04:45 AM   #10
jomik746
neófito
 
jomik746's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville/Owensboro, KY
Posts: 41
Default

If I am not mistaken, I believe they are called phrasal verbs as opposed to compound verbs.
jomik746 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010, 09:40 AM   #11
Pippa
GigaForero
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Lorenzo del Escorial
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpeace View Post
... and don't get anyone started on the ridiculous number of compound verbs in English. There are 100s of examples....
To stand
To stand up
To stand down
To shut
To shut up
To shut down

Imagine how hard they must be for non natives.
the worst one is to get:

get about (andar, desplazarse)
get across (cruzar (la calle), hacerse entender)
get at (llegar, criticar)
get ahead (adelantarse)
get along (llevarse bien, arreglarselas)
get around (sortear)
get away (salir, escaparse)
get back
get behind
get by
get down
get in
get off
get on
get out
get over
get round
get through
get to
get under
get up
get within

And most of them with two or more different meanings depending on the context
Pippa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010, 10:20 AM   #12
kenpeace
Super Forero
 
kenpeace's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chester, UK
Posts: 214
Default

Pippa - beautifully cultured of you to miss all the impolite examples of GET _______

Well done.
kenpeace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010, 10:43 AM   #13
Pippa
GigaForero
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Lorenzo del Escorial
Posts: 1,336
Default

Not quite a preposition
Pippa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010, 12:07 PM   #14
Grimace
Big and Purple
 
Grimace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Madriz
Posts: 159
Default

Michel Thomas was a very good language teacher. I loved listening to his "nose" rule for written accents in Spanish, which no one had been able to explain to me meaningfully up until that point.
Grimace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2010, 02:59 AM   #15
halfstepdown88
Forero
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimace View Post
Michel Thomas was a very good language teacher. I loved listening to his "nose" rule for written accents in Spanish, which no one had been able to explain to me meaningfully up until that point.
I've listened to 7 cds of his 8 on Spanish. I don't remember hearing about the "nose" rule. Care to expand?
halfstepdown88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2010, 12:04 PM   #16
Grimace
Big and Purple
 
Grimace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Madriz
Posts: 159
Default

The "nose" rule is just a simple way of remembering that in Spanish the spoken stress of a word always falls on the last syllable if the word ends in a consonant (lle-GAR, po-DER, o-por-tu-ni-DAD) or the second-to-last syllable if the word ends in N, S or a vowel (ex-A-men, CHI-cos, HO-ra). O and E are vowels, for example, giving us the "nose" memory tool.

With the exception of a few indentically pronounced monosyllables that are accentuated to show that they are different words in writing (té and te, mí and mi, for example), it's only when you break this rule that you need to put an accent to show you where the spoken stress is.

If you're new to the concept of spoken stress, just try pronouncing these two sentences:

1. The judge decided to convict the man of the crime.
2. The convict escaped from jail.

Notice how the first "convict" has the stress on the second syllable "vict." The second one has the emphasis/stress on "con."

Examples in Spanish of accent use:

Joven -- ends in 'n' and the spoken stress is on the second-to-last syllable "jo". No accent needed.

Jóvenes -- ends in s, but since the original stress is maintained on the now third-to-last syllable, you need an accent to show that you're breaking the normal rules.

Inversión -- the stress is on the last syllable despite the fact that it's a word ending in 'n', which breaks the normal rule. So you have to put an accent to show that.

Inversiones -- now you don't need an accent because the second-to-last syllable remains stressed and since the word ends in an 's' it follows the rules. If you maintained the written accent and wrote "inversiónes," you would still pronounce it correctly using the accent as a guide, but it would be redundant to put it there, so there's no need.

There are some other things to learn before you can use accents perfectly (or almost perfectly) in Spanish, but it's not too complicated. A lot of Spanish native speakers don't know when to use accents correctly in their own written language, so don't worry if you can't get it right for a while.

I hope my explanation makes sense to you.

Last edited by Grimace; 24th April 2010 at 12:08 PM.
Grimace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2010, 12:48 PM   #17
Pippa
GigaForero
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Lorenzo del Escorial
Posts: 1,336
Default

This is very interesting as it is just the reverse as how we, Spaniards, learn to know when the written accents are needed. Of course, we know how to speak but it is when you learn to write. So the rules are:

1.-Any word with a spoken stress in the third-to-last syllable needs a written accent.
2.-Any word with a spoken stress in the last syllable that ends in N, S or a vowel has a written accent.
3.-Any word with a spoken stress in the second-to-last syllable that does not end on N, S or a vowel, needs a written accent.

A few examples:

1.- murciélago, fenómeno, química
2.- camión, quizás, alhelí, cartel, arroz
3.- árbol, mañana, joven

In your example of joven, does not need the written accent because it finishes in n and the spoken stress is in the second-to last syllable. When you write jóvenes it needs it because as the stress keeps in the same syllable but it becomes a three syllable word, it requires it.


Anybody who feels too muddle about this post, forget about it
Pippa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2010, 02:58 PM   #18
frangels
Forero
 
frangels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: MADRID
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimace View Post
The "nose" rule is just a simple way of remembering that in Spanish the spoken stress of a word always falls on the last syllable if the word ends in a consonant (lle-GAR, po-DER, o-por-tu-ni-DAD) or the second-to-last syllable if the word ends in N, S or a vowel (ex-A-men, CHI-cos, HO-ra). O and E are vowels, for example, giving us the "nose" memory tool.

With the exception of a few indentically pronounced monosyllables that are accentuated to show that they are different words in writing (té and te, mí and mi, for example), it's only when you break this rule that you need to put an accent to show you where the spoken stress is.

If you're new to the concept of spoken stress, just try pronouncing these two sentences:

1. The judge decided to convict the man of the crime.
2. The convict escaped from jail.

Notice how the first "convict" has the stress on the second syllable "vict." The second one has the emphasis/stress on "con."

Examples in Spanish of accent use:

Joven -- ends in 'n' and the spoken stress is on the second-to-last syllable "jo". No accent needed.

Jóvenes -- ends in s, but since the original stress is maintained on the now third-to-last syllable, you need an accent to show that you're breaking the normal rules.

Inversión -- the stress is on the last syllable despite the fact that it's a word ending in 'n', which breaks the normal rule. So you have to put an accent to show that.

Inversiones -- now you don't need an accent because the second-to-last syllable remains stressed and since the word ends in an 's' it follows the rules. If you maintained the written accent and wrote "inversiónes," you would still pronounce it correctly using the accent as a guide, but it would be redundant to put it there, so there's no need.

There are some other things to learn before you can use accents perfectly (or almost perfectly) in Spanish, but it's not too complicated. A lot of Spanish native speakers don't know when to use accents correctly in their own written language, so don't worry if you can't get it right for a while.

I hope my explanation makes sense to you.

So where did/can i find this?
frangels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2010, 12:10 AM   #19
halfstepdown88
Forero
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7
Default

So how does one know when to write either te or té, mi or mí?
Tu or tú?
halfstepdown88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2010, 09:11 AM   #20
Pippa
GigaForero
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Lorenzo del Escorial
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by halfstepdown88 View Post
So how does one know when to write either te or té, mi or mí?
Tu or tú?
the easiest one is te y té

té.- tea.
te.- pronombre personal. Te amo. Te digo que no es verdad. ¿Cuantas veces hay que decirte las cosas?

¿Qué clase de té te gusta a ti?


Tú.- pronombre personal. Tú eres muy listo. Díselo tú.
tu.- adj posesivo. Me encanta tu coche. Y tu casa. Y tu marido.


mí.- pronombre personal. ¡A mí me lo vas a decir! Las cosas malas siempre me tocan a mí y las buenas a ti.

mi.- adj posesivo. Mi casa está abierta para todo el mundo. En mi colegio no enseñan francés.

Note that ti does not have accent despite being a pronoun as there is nothing to get confused with.
Pippa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Learn REAL Spanish now!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.