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Old 2nd April 2008, 02:00 PM   #1
pablojones
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Question Easy question...

hola...
me llamo Paul y soy de Gales. no puedo hablar mucho español pero quiero aprender!

Now that i've exhausted myself writing in Spanish, I need to ask a question in English. Sorry!

I've just listened to lesson one of inspired beginners and I'm a little confused over a few things, but I'll keep this post to one question only.

In one place, Ben asks Marina ¿Y Tú? Then later, Marina asks Ben ¿y a tí?
Please could anyone of you wonderful people out there tell me why a different way of saying "and you?"
gracias por sus ayudar,
Pablo.

All corrections to my Spanish (or English) are welcome!
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Old 2nd April 2008, 02:50 PM   #2
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Hola Pablo y bienvenido al foro!!!

I'll try to explain in English.

Both are Personal Pronouns, which are words that substitute the name of the people that are involved in the conversation, and the people or things that they refer to.

For example in the second person of singular the Personal Pronouns would be:, te, ti, contigo.


As you will see in the examples below, there is no difference for the use of both in English:


- How are you? - ¿Qué tal estás?
- Very well, and you? - Muy bien, ¿y ?


Talking about what film to see:
- I'd like to see 'Silk', and you? - A mi me gustaría ver "Seda", ¿y a ti?
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Old 2nd April 2008, 03:02 PM   #3
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Maybe I could add that tú is the informal pronoun for you, but ti is used after prepositions (except con where tigo is attached to con to give contigo) -so it is a little complex.

Marina's example she has translated fully as: 'I'd like to see silk, and you?' but if you do a more word for word thing it would be:

A mi me gustaría ver "Seda", ¿y a ti?
To me it would be pleasing to see 'silk' and to you?

I've probably just made it twice as complicated

Last edited by tad; 2nd April 2008 at 05:38 PM. Reason: I couldn't understand what I had written and have added punctuation.
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Old 2nd April 2008, 03:58 PM   #4
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Hi Pablo.

This is one of those annoying things that you´ll understand automatically as your Spanish progresses, but trying to explain it is a real pain.

I´ll try throwing in a few examples, and you might hopefully understand it better by looking at the different patterns that the two sets of examples follow.

Examples that would use "tu"
1. Yo odio la tele - ¿Y tu, qué odias?
2. Yo estoy comiendo patatas - ¿Y tu, qué estás comiendo?
3. Yo prefiero los coches más que las motos - ¿Y tu, cual prefieres?

Examples that would use "ti"
1. A mi me gustan los animales - ¿Y a ti, te gustan?
2. A mi me parece horrible - ¿Y a ti, cómo te parece?
3. A mi me extraña su actitud - ¿Y a ti, te extraña?

So the pattern you should see is that, in the first lot, the person speaking is the "yo" person in the sentence.

Same examples in English:
I hate the tele. What do YOU hate?
I am eating potatoes. What are YOU eating?
I prefer cars more than motos. Which do YOU prefer?

Whereas in the second lot, there´s not a "yo" person in sight. It´s a different construction altogether, and its this different construction that calls for a different type of "you" to be used (TI instead of TU). So in the second lot of examples, the person speaking isn´t putting themsleves in the "YO" position, but instead they´re on the RECEIVING END of the phrase, like this...

same examples in English:
Animals are pleasing to ME. Are they pleasing TO YOU? (a ti)
To ME it seems horrible. How does it seem TO YOU? (a ti)
To ME his attitude is strange. Is it strange TO YOU? (a ti)

I dunno. You´re probably wanting to commit suicide now! Don´t let this put you off your Spanish. It´ll all fall into place before long. (My Spanish is due to "fall into place" in about 35 years time )
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Old 2nd April 2008, 08:21 PM   #5
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Red face

pues, estoy agobiado ahora!

Firstly, many, many thanks to you all for the prompt replies.
Secondly, my next post will not be made for a little while until I get my head around all this!

Seriously, if I understand correctly, and it is a BIG if...Reflexive type verbs require the 'a ti' and all others 'y tu'. Am I in the right ball park with that summary. I know that there are ALWAYS exceptions, but hopefully I'm on the right track.

Now all I have to do is understand reflexive verbs!

muchas gracias a todos.
Pablo
(sponsored by veryconfused.com)
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Old 2nd April 2008, 09:53 PM   #6
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God I knew I shouldn't have got suckered into this! The example and those of pepino are not reflexive verbs they are verbs used like this
I like beer
me gusta cerveza =(literally)beer pleases me or (even more literally) to me beer is pleasing so if I could write the question in English it would be

to me beer is pleasing -and to you?
In Spanish me gusta cerveza -y a ti?
If the tu (you) follows the preposition it turns into ti. and the 'a' is a preposition.
Prepositions are words like para, por, a, sin, con (another exception -contigo)
So 'Este regalo es para ti' (this gift is for you) it's a weird thing that looses it's weirdness after time -usted does not change for example -there's a bit more here

Last edited by tad; 2nd April 2008 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 2nd April 2008, 10:50 PM   #7
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Ok. I think I understand. Obviously my terminology is incorrect, but my understanding may not be.
The verb is 'doing' something to a person and therefore requires the 'a ti'.

una vez mas, muchas gracias.
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Old 4th April 2008, 01:08 PM   #8
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Please, translate and correct all mistakes:

'Tú' (with written accent) is the [2.ª persona singular en masculino y femenino] pronoun used in Spanish when the noun it replaces is the subject in a phrase.

'Ti' (without written accent) is the [2.ª persona singular en masculino y femenino] pronoun used in Spanish when the noun it replaces is [un complemento del verbo, de la acción: ¿an object of the verb?].

'Ti' is always preceded by a preposition ('de', 'a', 'por', etc.), but if the preposition is 'con' the pronoun changes to 'contigo' (never 'con ti').

On the other hand, it is possible (and not incorrect) to find two forms of the pronoun in the same phrase: 'Te quiero a ti'.
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Old 4th April 2008, 01:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisaboa View Post
Please, translate and correct all mistakes:

'Tú' (with written accent) is the 2nd person singular, male or female, pronoun used in Spanish when the noun it replaces is the subject in a phrase. (You buy a book)

'Te' (without written accent) is the 2nd person singular, male or female, pronoun used in Spanish when the noun it replaces is a direct object (D.O.) or an indirect object (I.O.) of the verb. (D.O. / I.O when the action of the verb is / is not directly on the noun : I buy a book = I buy it (D.O. = lo) : I buy you (IO = te) it (D.O. = lo = it) )

'Ti' is always preceded by a preposition ('de', 'a', 'por', etc.), but if the preposition is 'con' the pronoun changes to 'contigo' (never 'con ti').

On the other hand, it is possible (and not incorrect) to find two forms of the pronoun in the same phrase: 'Te quiero a ti'.
especially for emphasis or to make meaning clear.

Hope that hasn't confused you even more


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Old 4th April 2008, 02:13 PM   #10
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Sorry, I was trying to explain the theory but I see I complicated it a bit.

Mejor me explico en castellano: intentaba distinguir entre el uso de 'tú' (pronombre nominal) y 'ti' (pronombre dativo y acusativo, pero también genitivo y ablativo), que era lo que se planteaba.
Además, por supuesto, también está la forma 'te' (pronombre dativo y acusativo).
No sé cómo se traduce al inglés toda esa terminología.
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Old 4th April 2008, 02:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisaboa View Post
Sorry, I was trying to explain the theory but I see I complicated it a bit.

Mejor me explico en castellano: intentaba distinguir entre el uso de 'tú' (pronombre nominal) y 'ti' (pronombre dativo y acusativo, pero también genitivo y ablativo), que era lo que se planteaba.
Además, por supuesto, también está la forma 'te' (pronombre dativo y acusativo).
No sé cómo se traduce al inglés toda esa terminología.
Much clearer now.
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Old 5th April 2008, 12:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisaboa View Post
Sorry, I was trying to explain the theory but I see I complicated it a bit.

Mejor me explico en castellano: intentaba distinguir entre el uso de 'tú' (pronombre nominal) y 'ti' (pronombre dativo y acusativo, pero también genitivo y ablativo), que era lo que se planteaba.
Además, por supuesto, también está la forma 'te' (pronombre dativo y acusativo).
No sé cómo se traduce al inglés toda esa terminología.
There are a few exceptions to the preposition + you rule, aren't there? — según tú; entre tú y yo. Any more?
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Old 5th April 2008, 01:41 PM   #13
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for some examples of tu/te/ti see ESE's latest song post
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Old 8th April 2008, 02:44 PM   #14
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I definitely see that the learning 'mountain' before is huge.
But thanks to everyone I can attempt to climb one step at a time.

saludos,
Pablo
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Old 8th April 2008, 03:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pablojones View Post
I definitely see that the learning 'mountain' before is huge.
Sííííí, ¡tiene una empinada curva de aprendizaje!
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Old 8th April 2008, 04:28 PM   #16
greytop
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I'll bet you don't label any more threads "easy question"
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Old 8th April 2008, 08:16 PM   #17
pablojones
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Greytop,

You're not wrong!!!

Care to look at my other 'easy' question? I think it's much easier than this one...
http://www.notesfromspain.com/forums...ead.php?t=5140

gracias,
Pablo.
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Old 9th April 2008, 10:50 AM   #18
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Only Marina can help with that one so I've PM'd her for an answer. I can't really think she'd be guilty of laísmo and "hate her"

Last edited by greytop; 9th April 2008 at 03:32 PM. Reason: accent missing
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Old 9th April 2008, 11:47 AM   #19
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Today 10:50 AM greytop Only Marina can help with that one so I've PM'd her for an answer. I can't really think she'd be guilty of laismo and "hate her"
What is laismo?
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Old 9th April 2008, 01:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pablojones View Post
hola...
me llamo Paul y soy de Gales. no puedo hablar mucho español pero quiero aprender!
¡menos mal que no te llamas Paco!
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