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Old 5th April 2008, 07:27 PM   #21
greytop
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I was close though - at least it was another vowel
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Old 6th April 2008, 01:04 AM   #22
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Thanks Barry. Your post #18 has been copy-pasted and gone directly into my grammar notes. Excellent explanation.
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Old 6th April 2008, 12:45 PM   #23
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I'll second that Richard. Thanks Barry
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Old 7th April 2008, 08:52 AM   #24
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Tks for the comments guys. I thought Tads comment put it nicely in a nutshell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tad View Post
I've never really liked that permanent/temporary thing anyway, I prefer that estar describes the state of something whilst ser it's essence.
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Old 7th April 2008, 11:11 AM   #25
Legazpi
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Originally Posted by barry View Post
...
This subject can't really be discussed without a mention of the passive construction because it is an additional frequent use of the verb SER. Both in English and Spanish it can be used to describe an action , in any verb tense , by the use of SER (to be) and a past participle. Estar with past participle describes a state and is also frequently used to describe a resultant state (often permanent) after a completed action.

1. El ladrón fue capturado (action ) por la policia y ya está (location) en cárcel.
The thief was captured by the police and now he is in prison.

2. The thief was captured by the police and now he is imprisoned.
El ladron fue capturado (action) por la policia y ya está encarcelado (state)

...

Thanks for this - you've made explicit something that I had often wondered about. The passive action thing never really made sense because I felt that actions generally cause a change of state (e.g. from being free to being captured) but I guess you are not describing the change of state, but rather the action itself. I've tended to get round this problem by shoving a "se" in front of the verb to make it passive:

El ladrón se capturo (action ) por la policia y ya está (location) en cárcel.

To me this is the same as:

El ladrón fue capturado (action ) por la policia y ya está (location) en cárcel.

(please correct me if I have this wrong)

To confuse things further though, if you wanted to to desribe a passive and continuous action using estar + gerund, could you say for example this:

El ladrón estaba siendo capturado (action ) por la policia cuando empezó a disparar.

I'm interested because in this case I can't see how I can use "se" in the same way to maintain passiveness but still express continuity with estar + gerund, i.e.

El ladrón se esataba capturando por (action ) por la policia cuando empezó a disparar. This doesn't sound right at all.

Of course I could say:

El ladrón se capturaba por (action ) por la policia cuando empezó a disparar. This sounds ok - but I'm using the imperfect rather than estar + gerund.
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Old 7th April 2008, 12:44 PM   #26
barry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
Thanks for this - you've made explicit something that I had often wondered about. The passive action thing never really made sense because I felt that actions generally cause a change of state (e.g. from being free to being captured) but I guess you are not describing the change of state, but rather the action itself. I've tended to get round this problem by shoving a "se" in front of the verb to make it passive:

El ladrón se capturo (action ) por la policia y ya está (location) en cárcel.

To me this is the same as:

El ladrón fue capturado (action ) por la policia y ya está (location) en cárcel.

(please correct me if I have this wrong)
No, -El ladrón se capturó (action ) por la policia y ya está (location) en cárcel- is not spanish The use of 'se ' in this context would be to focus on the action without the need for the ' doer ' of the action to be mentioned, either because the doer is unknown or irrelevant in the context.

Se capturó al ladrón- The thief was captured.

Policía and ladrón are both animate so care must be taken not confuse ' se passive ' with 'se reflexive'

se capturó por la policia (not spanish)- re-arranging - La policia se capturó = The police captured themselves. (not english either)
If you want to mention the 'Doer' you have no choice but to use 'ser passive' -fue capturado-.

I will try and deal with rest of your question later but you can apply the same logic to much of it.
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Old 8th April 2008, 05:53 PM   #27
barry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
To confuse things further though, if you wanted to to desribe a passive and continuous action using estar + gerund, could you say for example this:

El ladrón estaba siendo capturado (action ) por la policia cuando empezó a disparar.

I'm interested because in this case I can't see how I can use "se" in the same way to maintain passiveness but still express continuity with estar + gerund, i.e.

El ladrón se esataba capturando por (action ) por la policia cuando empezó a disparar. This doesn't sound right at all.

Of course I could say:

El ladrón se capturaba por (action ) por la policia cuando empezó a disparar. This sounds ok - but I'm using the imperfect rather than estar + gerund.
Although you may often see 'se ' used with estar and gerund, it is usually for a different purpose. 'Se passive' with gerund doesn't sit right with me at all but then I am not a native.
Your last example was better. although I have to say that for english ears the verb capturar doesn't lend itself to continuity of action unless it is used in the sense of collecting data. Also, as in my previous post , once you have used ' se ' in this context, mentioning a ' doer ' of the action (la policia) you negate the purpose of using ' se ' in first place.

Trying to draw a parrallel in english,(using buscar instead of capturar) spanish ears might hear it as
-Everyone was looking for the thief by the police- ie: a double subject-
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Old 9th April 2008, 03:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
Tks for the comments guys. I thought Tads comment put it nicely in a nutshell.
Thanks Barry but just a compressed version of what you said already.

I don't have ready access to the internet at work and I often just load the webpages onto a memory stick and read and write any replies offline and then when I get a chance paste them onto the website -which means sometimes they are superfluous by the time I've done all that.

Thanks for the ser/estar past participle stuff -that's always tricky.
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Old 9th April 2008, 06:12 PM   #29
Legazpi
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Thanks for helping me out Barry.

Your example of how the passive "se" implies a (passive) subject that is different to the subject expressed by "por la policia", and that it therefore confuses things has definitely improved my understanding of the language.
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