Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum Learn REAL Spanish now!  

Go Back   Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum > Spanish Forum > Spanish Basics - Vocab and Grammar Q & A

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 31st October 2008, 10:55 AM   #21
barry
Super Forero
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Costa del Sur. England
Posts: 116
Default

'A mi madre la besa mi padre' is definitely used in some south american countries even in a literary sense, so it is considered grammatically correct whether we like it or not.

To my mind herein lies the difference:

Gordon Brown besa a Angela Merkel .
but
Nicolas Sarkozy la besa a Angela Merkel .

(It has been reported that Angela Merkel has complained about the way Sarkozy greets her)

Here I think 'la' is being used as an intensifier of the verb and 'mi madre' is the direct object.

Last edited by barry; 31st October 2008 at 11:23 AM.
barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2008, 11:30 AM   #22
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
'A mi madre la besa mi padre' is definitely used in some south american countries even in a literary sense, so it is considered grammatically correct whether we like it or not.

To my mind herein lies the difference:

Gordon Brown besa a Angela Merkel .
but
Nicolas Sarkozy la besa a Angela Merkel .

(It has been reported that Angela Merkel has complained about the way Sarkozy greets her)

Here I think 'la' is being used as an intensifier of the verb and 'mi madre' is the direct object.
Or is 'la' the direct object and 'mi madre' the intensifier?
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2008, 11:33 AM   #23
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by delgado View Post
correct me if i'm wrong but if this "la" is a direct object pronoun and the "a" is a personal "a" then arn't we refering to the same reality(subject) twice in the same sentence.....
Yes - but it might be best to leave the reasons behind that for another thread.
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2008, 01:01 PM   #24
delgado
Mega Forero
 
delgado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Sebastián (Bidebieta)
Posts: 377
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
'A mi madre la besa mi padre' is definitely used in some south american countries even in a literary sense, so it is considered grammatically correct whether we like it or not.

To my mind herein lies the difference:

Gordon Brown besa a Angela Merkel .
but
Nicolas Sarkozy la besa a Angela Merkel .

(It has been reported that Angela Merkel has complained about the way Sarkozy greets her)

Here I think 'la' is being used as an intensifier of the verb and 'mi madre' is the direct object.
An interesting point.......

like I said " pronouns are the bain of my life"
delgado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2008, 04:07 PM   #25
greytop
Hero Forero
 
greytop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pego, Spain
Posts: 3,365
Default

Whilst rummaging around spanish.about.com I came upon a couple of articles on direct/indirect pronouns that highlight the difference between English and Spanish.
Some bits relevant to this discussion (my highlight):
" Direct-object pronouns are those pronouns that represent the nouns directly acted upon by the verb. Indirect-object pronouns stand for the noun that is the recipient of the verb's action. In both English and Spanish, a verbs may have no object (e.g., "I live," vivo), a direct object only (e.g., "I killed the fly," maté la mosca), or both direct and indirect objects (e.g., "I gave her the ring," le di el anillo). The construction of an indirect object without a direct object isn't used in English, but it can be done in Spanish (e.g., le es difícil, "it is difficult for him.")

"In Spanish, you may find indirect object pronouns where you least expect them, at least if your native language is English. That is because in Spanish, the indirect object pronouns have a much wider variety of uses than they do in English. ....

"In Spanish, indirect object pronouns are used in similar sentences that would be awkward in English. For example, while it is possible to say, "They are painting me a house," it would be more common to say, "They are painting a house for me." In Spanish, there is no awkwardness; the normal sentence construction still would be "Me pintan una casa.

Upward and onward pilgrims!
greytop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2008, 04:42 PM   #26
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greytop View Post
...The construction of an indirect object without a direct object isn't used in English, but it can be done in Spanish (e.g., le es difícil, "it is difficult for him.")
What about the phrase "He told me it"?

Here it seems that "it" is the direct object (the thing being told) and "me" is the indirect object (the person being told).

Now consider the phrase "He told me".

This is grammatically correct, but has "me" suddenly become the direct object? Or is it still an indirect object? In which case it is an example of a construction of an indirect object, but without a direct object, which contradicts the above quote.
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2008, 05:26 PM   #27
Perro Callejero
El Perro Callejero
 
Perro Callejero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Probablemente perdido
Posts: 325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post

This is grammatically correct, but has "me" suddenly become the direct object? Or is it still an indirect object? In which case it is an example of a construction of an indirect object, but without a direct object, which contradicts the above quote.
Me would still be functioning as the indirect object, with the direct object "told what?" being a "mystery."

He told me. Told me what? We don't know = no direct object pronoun.
He told me. Whom did he tell? Me = indirect pronoun.




As far as the "Mi padre la besa a mi madre" example, with "la" functioning as the direct object (her) and the "a" serving as a personal "a," I was always taught that the direct object is never reinforced with a repetitive naming of the object, like is done with indirect pronouns. As such, this construction would never occur, it would simply be "Mi padre besa a mi madre" or "Me padre la besa," with a renaming only ocurring in the use of an indirect object, as other people said with "Mi padre le da un beso."

Of course, you could also introduce the leísmo argument, saying "Mi padre le besa a mi madre," as well! Whew! So many possibilities!

Last edited by Perro Callejero; 31st October 2008 at 05:29 PM.
Perro Callejero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2008, 04:55 AM   #28
jonnie2005
Forero
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 29
Default the new answer

After studying this and other converstions, I have a simple er answer. I will rewrite the spanish language for everyone. From now on que will mean "what" and qat will mean "than" and qot will mean "why". cual will mean "do" and llevar will mean "take" and I will specify all the other lleve's in my next issue.
Of course I am kidding and the thread really did alot for me as I went in and read it and studied on it. I think I can fiqure it all out in this life time perhaps. I will keep on trying.
jonnie2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2008, 10:01 AM   #29
barry
Super Forero
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Costa del Sur. England
Posts: 116
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnie2005 View Post
After studying this and other converstions, I have a simple er answer. I will rewrite the spanish language for everyone. From now on que will mean "what" and qat will mean "than" and qot will mean "why". cual will mean "do" and llevar will mean "take" and I will specify all the other lleve's in my next issue.
.


It would be unlikely that you would achieve any more success than the R.A.E . They've been trying for decades. The different regions still keep waving their provincial flags insisting their way is the right way.


In the news today Sarah Palin saying 'we love you'
Google search under "NEWS"

361 English and Spanish pages for "Lo queremos" sarkozy palin.
190
English and Spanish pages for "Le queremos" sarkozy palin

Last edited by barry; 2nd November 2008 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Addition
barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2008, 08:49 PM   #30
tad
virtual idiot
 
tad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: palmers green
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post

361 English and Spanish pages for "Lo queremos" sarkozy palin.
190
English and Spanish pages for "Le queremos" sarkozy palin
Well 'leismo' is alive and well in many parts of spain I think even El País use it.(?)
'Laismo' generally speaking is considered substandard Spanish (relating to the original question).

Regarding the original question (again) I took the liberty of asking elsewhere for some information and was lucky to get a response from lazarus, who is in my opinion the best source (in the sense of being just one person)of Spanish grammar anywhere on the internet.

The question I asked used included the laismo question the use of 'personal a' and the sentence structure of the original statement as well as the redundancy issue. I hope it helps...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus1907
This is how it works:

The direct object is "a mi madre" (with the personal "a"), and its pronoun is "la". The direct object normally appears after the verb:

Mi padre besa a mi madre.

and it must appear right before the verb as a pronoun:

Mi padre la besa.

But if you change the order, and place the direct object before the verb, then you must also include the pronoun, as a warning, if you wish:

A mi madre la besa mi padre.
Mi padre a mi madre la besa.

The sentence sounds a bit strange, but it is correct grammatically. If "le" had been used here, it would be "leísmo".

P.S. I am 100% sure about what I am saying.

Last edited by tad; 2nd November 2008 at 09:36 PM. Reason: changing stuff
tad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2008, 09:11 PM   #31
delgado
Mega Forero
 
delgado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Sebastián (Bidebieta)
Posts: 377
Default

very informative (and well explained)!!!

Thanks for posting Tad
delgado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2008, 09:49 AM   #32
kaos2me
Forero
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by delgado View Post
very informative (and well explained)!!!

Thanks for posting Tad
Yes, I agree! Thank you!
kaos2me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2008, 07:15 PM   #33
tad
virtual idiot
 
tad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: palmers green
Posts: 2,402
Default

...well, don't thank me, thank our new friend lazarus.
tad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th November 2008, 08:52 PM   #34
kaos2me
Forero
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tad View Post
...well, don't thank me, thank our new friend lazarus.

Well, in that case, thank you to lazarus for the information and thank you to you for posting it.
kaos2me is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Learn REAL Spanish now!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.