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Old 29th October 2010, 06:28 PM   #1
ashalita
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Default El mensaje se ha enviado

Hola!

I've recently changed the settings on my phone so that it's in Spanish, and whenever I send a text, a little notification pops up saying: "el mensaje se ha enviado".

I'm just a little confused as to why the "se" needs to be in this sentence. Can anyone shed any light?
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Old 29th October 2010, 09:21 PM   #2
yunouguaramin
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Originally Posted by ashalita View Post
Hola!

I've recently changed the settings on my phone so that it's in Spanish, and whenever I send a text, a little notification pops up saying: "el mensaje se ha enviado".

I'm just a little confused as to why the "se" needs to be in this sentence. Can anyone shed any light?
This form is called 'pasiva refleja'.
Quote:
Oraciones de pasiva refleja

Las oraciones de pasiva refleja son oraciones predicativas con verbo en voz activa en las que el sujeto nombra al ser u objeto que recibe o padece la acción (sujeto paciente).
El verbo de las oraciones de pasiva refleja va precedido por se y está en tercera persona del singular o del plural.
http://www.kalipedia.com/literatura-...c_288.Kes&ap=3

The normal passive voice would be 'el mensaje ha sido enviado', but in 'pasiva refleja', which is more popular and cool between us, it's left like 'el mesaje se ha enviado'.
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Old 30th October 2010, 02:09 PM   #3
ashalita
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Originally Posted by yunouguaramin View Post
This form is called 'pasiva refleja'.

http://www.kalipedia.com/literatura-...c_288.Kes&ap=3

The normal passive voice would be 'el mensaje ha sido enviado', but in 'pasiva refleja', which is more popular and cool between us, it's left like 'el mesaje se ha enviado'.
Thanks for the link - I liked the diagramatic layout of the explanations.

Just another question: if I wanted to use the pasiva refleja with a verb that is already reflexive, how would this work?

Eg.
The boy has been woken up = el chico se ha sido despertado (I think this is right for the normal passive voice)

But how can I say this using pasiva refleja, because there can't be two reflexive pronouns in the same sentence surely??
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Old 30th October 2010, 08:02 PM   #4
xan
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Originally Posted by ashalita View Post
Eg.
The boy has been woken up = el chico se ha sido despertado (I think this is right for the normal passive voice)

But how can I say this using pasiva refleja, because there can't be two reflexive pronouns in the same sentence surely??
Hoo boy. I see we are teetering on the banks of the "se" tar pit now, in danger of becoming mired. But a few thoughts:

In spanish there are several ways to make something analogous to the english passive voice. One of them is this se construct. If a verb has both a transitive non-reflexive form (el ruido me despertó; "the noise woke me up") and a reflexive, intransitive form (me desperté a las seis; "I woke at six"), you can´t use the simple se construct to get a passive meaning, at least for animate objects, precisely because it gets confused with the reflexive form.

If you want to say e.g. "he was woken up at six" (by someone or something else) your options are:
  • se le despertó a las seis (the indirect object pronoun le is inserted to distinguish from se despertó a las seis, which just means "he woke up at six")
  • lo despertaron a las seis
  • fue despertado a las seis

I kind of think that the middle choice (lo despertaron a las seis) which strictly speaking isn't passive voice, is the most natural and common for a spanish-speaker. Since you don't have to specify the subject pronoun "they" in spanish, it functions more like our passive voice.

Last edited by xan; 30th October 2010 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 31st October 2010, 03:45 AM   #5
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I see you are on line. i have looked in every spanish dictionary for the meaning of 'forero', but cannot find it anywhere. Can you enlighten me ?
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Old 31st October 2010, 04:49 AM   #6
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I see you are on line. i have looked in every spanish dictionary for the meaning of 'forero', but cannot find it anywhere. Can you enlighten me ?
somebody participating in or hanging out in a forum. From
foro ("forum") + -ero (standard suffix meaning, among other things, somebody involved in something or dealing in something, or participating in something, or a place dedicated to some activity)

Other examples: obrero, zapatero, herrero, junquero, yonquero, granjero, alfarero,trastero, pajero (gotta be careful with the last one, at least in Spain!)
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Old 31st October 2010, 12:55 PM   #7
ashalita
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xan View Post
If you want to say e.g. "he was woken up at six" (by someone or something else) your options are:
  • se le despertó a las seis (the indirect object pronoun le is inserted to distinguish from se despertó a las seis, which just means "he woke up at six")
  • lo despertaron a las seis
  • fue despertado a las seis
I kind of think that the middle choice (lo despertaron a las seis) which strictly speaking isn't passive voice, is the most natural and common for a spanish-speaker. Since you don't have to specify the subject pronoun "they" in spanish, it functions more like our passive voice.
Thanks a million! That was pretty comprehensive.
I just want to clarify something. If lo despertaron a las seis, means "he was woken up at 6" then how would you say: they woke him up at 6/he was woken up at 6 by them. (I want to specify the person as well. I'm not sure how you would say this as despertaron is already in the "they" form)


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Originally Posted by xan View Post
Other examples: obrero, zapatero, herrero, junquero, yonquero, granjero, alfarero,trastero, pajero (gotta be careful with the last one, at least in Spain!)
Someone carrying straw as opposed to....
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Old 31st October 2010, 03:24 PM   #8
xan
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Originally Posted by ashalita View Post
Thanks a million! That was pretty comprehensive.
I just want to clarify something. If lo despertaron a las seis, means "he was woken up at 6" then how would you say: they woke him up at 6/he was woken up at 6 by them. (I want to specify the person as well. I'm not sure how you would say this as despertaron is already in the "they" form)
By specifying the subject, even as just a pronoun, you emphasize it:
ellos lo despertaron a las seis


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Someone carrying straw as opposed to....
As opposed to someone who se hace pajas. In Spain, and quite possibly a number of Latin-American countries as well, hacerse pajas is the most common colloquial way of saying "masturbate".

Oh, and as regards forero, I have also seen forista meaning the same. Both are "new" words which cannot be found in dictionaries, so who knows which is preferred generally.
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Old 31st October 2010, 09:57 PM   #9
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Oh, and as regards forero, I have also seen forista meaning the same. Both are "new" words which cannot be found in dictionaries, so who knows which is preferred generally.
I think the preferred generally in Spain is 'forero', and in most latinamerica countries is 'forista'.

By the way, what is junquero?. Algo que ver con los juncos?.

And 'yonquero'?. I know 'yonqui' or 'yonki' is an addicted to heroine, but 'yonquero' is the first time I see it.
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Old 31st October 2010, 11:23 PM   #10
xan
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By the way, what is junquero?. Algo que ver con los juncos?.
Supongo que de antaño era una persona que ganaba la vida recolectando juncos. Hoy en día parece que no es más que una especie de ave del Cono Sur que vive dentro de los juncales. Mal ejemplo de mi parte.

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And 'yonquero'?. I know 'yonqui' or 'yonki' is an addicted to heroine, but 'yonquero' is the first time I see it.
Esa palabra conocí en México donde se nota más la influencia del inglés. Es junk=>yonque=>yonquero, uno que se dedica a la compra y venta de automóbiles siniestrados y cualquier otra clase de chatarra. No conozco la palabra correspondiente de España. ¿desguacero? ¿chatarrerro?

Eso de yonque siempre me daba gracia. Tambien dicen oké ("okay") en vez de vale, y se oyen muchas otras palabras prestadas que tal vez no se conocen en España.
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Old 1st November 2010, 01:33 AM   #11
pbojarsky
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Thanks so much. It occurred to me that forero might have something to do with forums. I guess it's a neologism and hasn't made it into the dictionaries yet.
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Old 1st November 2010, 01:38 AM   #12
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Is an alfarero someone who drives an Alfa Romeo ?
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Old 1st November 2010, 02:06 AM   #13
yunouguaramin
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Originally Posted by xan View Post
Supongo que de antaño era una persona que ganaba la vida recolectando juncos. Hoy en día parece que no es más que una especie de ave del Cono Sur que vive dentro de los juncales. Mal ejemplo de mi parte.



Esa palabra conocí en México donde se nota más la influencia del inglés. Es junk=>yonque=>yonquero, uno que se dedica a la compra y venta de automóbiles siniestrados y cualquier otra clase de chatarra. No conozco la palabra correspondiente de España. ¿desguacero? ¿chatarrerro?
En España se dice chatarrero, aun.
Quote:
Eso de yonque siempre me daba gracia. Tambien dicen oké ("okay") en vez de vale, y se oyen muchas otras palabras prestadas que tal vez no se conocen en España.
Bueno, los idiomas cambian con el tiempo, la distancia, la política et cetera.
En teoría el rumano y el castellano tiene el mismo origen, pero hoy día son mutuamente ininteligibles.
A mi lo que me sorprende es que tras dos siglos de independencia, un océano de distancia y condiciones geopolíticas tan diferentes, el español de España México o Chile aun se parezcan tanto.
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Is an alfarero someone who drives an Alfa Romeo ?
No, is someone who made jugs, botijos and the like with clay.

Someone who drives an Alfa Romeo probably is an 'quiero y no puedo' conducir un Ferrari o un Masseratti.

Last edited by yunouguaramin; 1st November 2010 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 1st November 2010, 07:50 AM   #14
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Is an alfarero someone who drives an Alfa Romeo ?
Alfarero.- potter
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Old 1st November 2010, 08:38 PM   #15
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Is an alfarero someone who drives an Alfa Romeo ?
That was pretty funny
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Old 3rd November 2010, 08:50 PM   #16
ashalita
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Bueno, los idiomas cambian con el tiempo, la distancia, la política et cetera.
En teoría el rumano y el castellano tiene el mismo origen, pero hoy día son mutuamente ininteligibles.
A mi lo que me sorprende es que tras dos siglos de independencia, un océano de distancia y condiciones geopolíticas tan diferentes, el español de España México o Chile aun se parezcan tanto.
Aquí te doy un enlace para un artículo muy interesante sobre la historia de la lengua española. A mí, lo encontré muy interesante a ver como cambian algunas palabras y el accento de la lengua con tiempo y con condiciones sociales y políticas como ya has mencionado.
http://www.alsintl.com/resources/languages/Spanish/
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Old 4th November 2010, 02:01 AM   #17
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Thank you ashalita, very kind of you.

Although I was learned these old stories in a little different way.
It's not clear if the celts came over here or they left from here to west europe after the last glaciar period.

The only known aboriginal languages in the iberian penninsula are the basque (still alive!) and the 'iberian', but this last is a mistery and is still undeciphered, but they think is very similar to basque.
Never heard the 'celt' was spoken here.

And when the visigohts came here they were under roman domination from many years ago and they knew latin yet, never tried to use 'gothic' in the state affairs and they kept it to themselves, but for a short time I think.

And I've never heard the arabic was 'widely spoken in islamic Spain'. Arabic was the language of the state and the invader elites, but people kept speaking vulgar latin or some dialect of this.
There's loanwords from arabic, sustantives mainly, but not grammatic of any kind.

And the spanish explorers carried their language to the Americas in the beginnings of the 1500, not 1400.

Last edited by yunouguaramin; 4th November 2010 at 02:04 AM.
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