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Old 5th March 2009, 03:22 PM   #21
MCP
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"If I had to stand in a pub with a smoker or in a garage with a car with its engine running I know which I would choose."

But it's not often that people want to stand in a garage with a car whose engine is running, is it?

What about those who work in pubs? Haven't they got the right to be protected from passive smoking?
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Old 5th March 2009, 03:51 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Andy.G. View Post
It has just been on the news tonight that 40 pubs are week are closing here and that the no smoking legislation is playing a major part in this.
Whatīs a major part?

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Government figures show that 80% of people that go to the pubs more than 4 times a week are smokers.
So theyīre still going to the pub then?

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There is usually more people stood outside the pub than inside.It would seem that the non smokers are sitting in comfort at the smokers expense.
Thatīs the idea of the legislation, yes.

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It is not surprising then that the amount of people going to pubs has fallen dramatically since legislation was passed here and at the same time there is a huge increase in sales of beer in the supermarkets since the smokers have decided enough is enough with the persecution and all are staying at home having a few cans of beer with friends.
I am a non-smoker and would be more likely to do "botellón" now because of the crisis! I donīt think the smoking legislation is the main reason for a fall in attendance in pubs.

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A lot of people have lost their livelyhoods now because the non smokers just dont spend enough money in the pubs.
...And the non-smokers too.

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Spain can see how other countries are suffering with this antismoking law and see how it will effect how they will make a living.The owners should have the right to allow or not allow smoking on their premises.If Spain was to pass any legislation now with regards to no smoking then thousands or bars would close for good leaving thousands of people without work.
...And with better health. It may have immediate repurcussions, (although Iīm not sure the Spanish would give up their morning coffee in the bar because of it) but itīs also giving people the choice to avoid smoke pollution and the health system will, in theory, be less pressured by the people suffering with smoking-related diseases. And imagine how many people might spend more time in the pubs because of the more pleasant environment. Iīm not well-versed on the ins and outs of the statistics, but itīs obvious that banning something so damaging to health from public places makes sense.

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but hey at least our clothes wont smell I guess thats whats most important.
What?! Letīs stop kidding ourselves, no?

No, whatīs important is that more than 50 000 people die from tabacco consumption in Spain each year, that after smoking a cigarette there are 69 carconogenic chemicals left in the air which can add to the risk of cancer when breathed in, smoking increases - by 70% - the risk of premature death from various diseases which develop through smoking tabacco.

(Taken from the Government of Spain website, published 2008: http://www.pnsd.msc.es/Categoria2/pu...008/tabaco.htm)

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As for smoking and fumes from cars are not different issues as they both are damaging to the health and if you ban smoking you should ban the use of car, taxes,public transport for the same reason that it is damaging to your health.(If I had to stand in a pub with a smoker or in a garage with a car with its engine running I know which I would choose).
Youīre absolutely right. We should not take the liberty of banning smoking in bars, restaurants and clubs until weīve got rid of petrol powered cars. And buses. And planes. And the metro. And trams. Oh, and bikes, because harmful chemicals are produced when they are manufactured. And skateboards, because the planes and ships they use to bring them to Spain from China cause CO2 emissions. And legs, because theyīre attached to the body of the person who eats strawberries imported from South America on a plane.

Or, we can take action step by step, doing what we can to reduce human impact on the environment (on people and on the medio-ambiente). This legislation IS attainable - itīs been implemented successfully by several European countries already.

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People dont want to cut smokers any slack but at the same time will jump into a car or use public transport and help to contribute to the damage all these posionos fumes will do to the publics health , But some people will give traffic pollution a break and not attack it with the same venom as smokers as it helps them get to a to b easily and quickly allthough it will be killing a few of us a long the journey.
Some people will give traffic pollution "a break" because there are few alternatives to get from A to B. We can take action to pressure the government (see Greenpeace, for example), or act as individuals to pressure for change in general, which we do, often. This is one branch of that protest.

There are no real excuses not to ban smoking in these public places. The issue should not be economical - itīs a common sense, civilised decision about health.
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Old 5th March 2009, 05:34 PM   #23
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Default WHY ARE ALL THE PUBS CLOSING? ASK PEOPLE WHO NEVER GO TO THE PUB

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...-200903051623/

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...
Margaret Gerving, from Peterborough, said: "I was delighted when the smoking ban came in because it meant I could finally go to the pub without being killed.

"But then I didn't, mainly because I'm not the sort of person who likes going to pubs. I prefer to stay in with a carton of pomegranate juice and a bag of pine nuts and make long lists of all the things I want banned.

"Now it turns out that nobody else is going either because quite a lot of the people who used to go to the pub also liked to smoke. But none of this explains why all the pubs are closing down."

...

Former pub owner Charlie Reeves, from Hereford, said: "We were told that the smoking ban would mean lots of young mums and dads bringing their children in. But that didn't really help because there's only so much Guinness you can pour down a three year-old before it falls asleep.

"Then there's the added factor that a pub with children in it isn't really a pub, it's a f***ing hell hole."
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Old 5th March 2009, 05:47 PM   #24
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Hey, let's look at this from a culinary point of view for a change: smoking clogs up our taste buds, and we don't enjoy our food and wine as much. It's an insult to the chef really, and it also affects second-hand smokers who inhale these noxious fumes against their will. Last but not least, I don't think a wine taster could do his job properly if he were a smoker!
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Old 5th March 2009, 05:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
In Holland, most pubs also serve coffee and tea, which means they are frequented by all sorts of people, including young families and their children.

I just love the fact that since last summer, I can enjoy my cappuchino in a smoke-free environment wherever I go! I'm an asthmatic, so I avoid smokers whenever I can. Unfortunately, many Dutchies are incurable tobacco addicts and some hard-core smokers keep belly-aching and b*tching ad nauseam about the smoking ban.

I was really surprised to read that the smoking ban has been a huge success in Italy, though, and that many restaurant visitors have come to really enjoy their meals!

Last edited by Edith; 6th March 2009 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 5th March 2009, 06:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post

Ok, made me smile, but nonetheless I can assure you that itīs not all crusty unsociable types who would appreciate a ban. Iīm quite rock n roll really, and would often treat myself to a Mercadona Jazz collection of dried fruit and nuts with my pomegranate juice.

Also, itīs very common (as I imagine you know from living in Madrid) that kids will be taken to bars with their parents, smoking ban or not.

Edith - exactly - itīs horrible to sit down to a meal just as the couple next to you have arrived at the coffee/cigarette stage and you end up eating your entire meal with the taste of smoke.
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Old 5th March 2009, 06:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Gem View Post
Ok, made me smile, but nonetheless I can assure you that itīs not all crusty unsociable types who would appreciate a ban. Iīm quite rock n roll really, and would often treat myself to a Mercadona Jazz collection of dried fruit and nuts with my pomegranate juice.

Also, itīs very common (as I imagine you know from living in Madrid) that kids will be taken to bars with their parents, smoking ban or not.

Edith - exactly - itīs horrible to sit down to a meal just as the couple next to you have arrived at the coffee/cigarette stage and you end up eating your entire meal with the taste of smoke.
I was only teasing. BTW I don't smoke either, but most of my drinking buddies back in the UK do, and I haven't heard any of them complain about the smoking ban. Most of them would happily quit if they could, they see the smoking ban as a help in this respect, and they consider the fact that they have to go outside for a cigarette a minor irritation.

I also noticed when I was in Paris recently that many bars have their outside tables enclosed in plastic covers, so people can sit outside and have a beer and a fag if they wish. It ain't the same as sitting inside the bar of course, but it's better than nothing.
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Old 5th March 2009, 06:23 PM   #28
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I was only teasing. BTW I don't smoke either, but most of my drinking buddies back in the UK do, and I haven't heard any of them complain about the smoking ban. Most of them would happily quit if they could, they see the smoking ban as a help in this respect, and they consider the fact that they have to go outside for a cigarette a minor irritation.

I also noticed when I was in Paris recently that many bars have their outside tables enclosed in plastic covers, so people can sit outside and have a beer and a fag if they wish. It ain't the same as sitting inside the bar of course, but it's better than nothing.
I know... and Iīve heard that from friends in England too, that it makes it easier to give up! In the same way, maybe it wouldnīt make smoking *so* accessible and normalised to young people...?
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Old 5th March 2009, 07:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Edith View Post
In Holland, most pubs also serve coffee and tea, which means they are frequented by all sorts of people, including young families and their children.
It's a curious thing but when the 2006 legislation came into force in Spain those establishments that allowed smoking had a notice that said that under 18s could not come in. I considered that a good thing. However, thinking about it, I haven't seen (or perhaps noticed) those signs for quite a while. Are the authorities turning a blind eye?
I think it has been established that even though I am a smoker I have no wish to annoy those who are not, but I do want a place where I can go.
If the legislation, which I thought sensible and grown up, unlike the "we know what is best for you" rules in other places, is being ignored, then that needs to be addressed.
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Old 5th March 2009, 08:28 PM   #30
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I think it has been established that even though I am a smoker I have no wish to annoy those who are not, but I do want a place where I can go.
I can understand that, but on the other hand I believe that if it hadn't been for the smoking ban, all pubs and restaurants would have remained safe havens for smokers. In other words, non-smokers and asthmatics had no real place to call their own until the smoking bans were passed.

By the way, I'm all in favor of a 'smoking room' at work (is there a special word for this in English? - in Dutch we say 'smoking den'), because it offers all the smokers an opportunity to go there for a cigarette break without annoying their co-workers.

Last edited by Edith; 6th March 2009 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 5th March 2009, 08:45 PM   #31
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I can understand that, but on the other hand I believe that if it hadn't been for the smoking ban, all pubs and restaurants would have remained safe havens for smokers. In other words, non-smokers and asthmatics had no real place to call their own until the smoking bans were passed.
And now they do, despite the comments we have been reading here. I had lunch today with two friends, one of whom is a non smoker, and and even though we were in the majority, we chose to sit "non-fumadores" because the ambience is better. So I am not unsympathetic.
Maybe the real gripe is that the smokers have the places that the non-smokers want. But I cannot think of a restaurant I have been to recently that wasn't entirely non-smoking or only had a small smoking section, well ventilated and closed off from the rest.
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Old 6th March 2009, 11:42 AM   #32
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I agree with Edith - until there is a full ban, it just doesnīt work - there are very few places that are non-smoking. Yes, there are a handful of places, but itīs just not feasible (as I have mentioned in previous posts) to find them every time you want to go out for a coffee/beer/meal/sandwich. Thinking honestly of the places Iīve been in the last two weeks, of all of them (including some caņas/tapas, nights out having beers and dancing with friends, numerous coffees, a sushi buffet thing, an Arabic style tea place...) the only non-smoking - I think -was the sushi buffet thing, and even then somebody lit up inside as it approached closing time. If you would like to swap all of the non-smoking bars (donīt forget thatīs counting McDonaldīs, Starbucks and Irish/English bars) for those which are smoking, then maybe weīve got a deal. But what kind of legislation is going to make that a reality? As far as I can imagine (unless there are heavy cash incentives) itīs not - a ban is the only way.

My point is why should anyone (smoker or not) be subjected to breathing in smoke whether they like it or not? Imagine... in an imaginary city somewhere in an imaginary world, that every time you had a beer/coffee in the bar, someone would drop crushed glass into your beer, and then - if you protested - would tell you to go and find a bar where that wasnīt acceptable. Problem is, in this imaginary world, most of the bars in the city find this (albeit strange!) habit completely acceptable, and you really have to search for the bars where you can have your beer in peace. These people with the crushed glass are indiscriminate - they will shake a little into the kidsī coca-cola, on their girlfriendīs pizza and in their mateīs coffee. Yep, there are bars where you donīt have to tragar your beer with a gritty, crystal aftertaste, but theyīre not next to your work where they serve the best menú del día, or downstairs from your flat where you always go for your morning coffee.

How many statistics do we have to quote or convoluted metaphors do we have to create to get across the point that a smoking ban is more than reasonable?!
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Old 6th March 2009, 12:10 PM   #33
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A Smoking section in a restaurant or other venue is like having a no peeing section in a pool.
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Old 6th March 2009, 01:12 PM   #34
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A Smoking section in a restaurant or other venue is like having a no peeing section in a pool.
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Old 6th March 2009, 04:47 PM   #35
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How many statistics do we have to quote or convoluted metaphors do we have to create to get across the point that a smoking ban is more than reasonable?!
Reasonable? Hmm! This sounds like a new definition of the word. This is like that grafitti that states, "Be reasonable - Agree with me".
I suppose my problem is that I really don't mind what others do. If that's what turns their crank then that is ok with me. (Of course so long as it is legal and even a few thing that aren't. It is just not my business). And so I don't understand when people start demanding that I should behave in a certain way to please them. (So long as I am not doing something illegal!)
In a society we have all types. As a functioning society we should learn to get along. If there is inequality, and I prepared to admit that the fact there are more places to smoke than not is unequal, then as a society we should remedy that. But we should not impose outright bans. That would be just swinging the pendulum the other way. Too often, within living memory, we have seen the tragedy when that happens.
I find it curious that the smokers here have suggested ways, or showed sympathy with the plight of the non-smoker, but that the non-smokers have not once recognised that.
@VS. I have been in restaurants where the smoking section was simply deliniated but a row of potted ferns. And yes, I thought that was silly.But the new glass-partitioned, well ventilated smoking sections being introduced in restaurants do the job very well.
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Old 6th March 2009, 05:30 PM   #36
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Reasonable? Hmm! This sounds like a new definition of the word. This is like that grafitti that states, "Be reasonable - Agree with me".
I think Iīve made my case pretty clear, and to me (and others) it seems very reasonable for all the explications above which I wonīt go through again.

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I suppose my problem is that I really don't mind what others do. If that's what turns their crank then that is ok with me. (Of course so long as it is legal and even a few thing that aren't. It is just not my business). And so I don't understand when people start demanding that I should behave in a certain way to please them. (So long as I am not doing something illegal!)
Thatīs very liberal of you. Well, I would mind if somebody elseīs smoke were damaging my health! It IS all of our business! There is a big difference between someone doing their own thing and doing their own thing whilst having a negative impact on others! This is why we have laws! You could just as well say you donīt mind people murdering others. Or child neglect. Itīs our business when it affects the wellbeing of others!

Oh, and in the UK, Italy, Ireland, Norway, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Iceland, Lithuania, Slovakia and Sweden your behaviour WOULD be illegal! Obviously these governments feel it is their business, wouldnīt you say?

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In a society we have all types. As a functioning society we should learn to get along. If there is inequality, and I prepared to admit that the fact there are more places to smoke than not is unequal, then as a society we should remedy that.
How do you suggest they do that? Both Edith and I have said that if itīs possible to have places where both can be accommodated, then fine, but I donīt understand how this can be achieved.

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But we should not impose outright bans. That would be just swinging the pendulum the other way. Too often, within living memory, we have seen the tragedy when that happens.
When has putting a stop to an antisocial, destructive behaviour (not person/individual/society) ended in tragedy?

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I find it curious that the smokers here have suggested ways, or showed sympathy with the plight of the non-smoker, but that the non-smokers have not once recognised that.
Not true. Edith has said she is all for smoking rooms in the workplace, I have said that if thereīs a way to accommodate both smokers/non-smokers in an implementable way, then great!

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@VS. I have been in restaurants where the smoking section was simply deliniated but a row of potted ferns. And yes, I thought that was silly.But the new glass-partitioned, well ventilated smoking sections being introduced in restaurants do the job very well.
You keep talking about restaurants and almost totally missing the points Iīve made various times! Yes, you and your friends can choose to arrange to meet in a non-smoking restaurant, but when you want to just drop in somewhere for a coffee, a lunchtime menú or a coffee itīs not easy! Apart from that, I would rarely return to the same restaurant every time, and to find a new restaurant for each outing which is non-smoking would be almost impossible. Couple that with the fact that you most often donīt have the say on where a group of friends would go, itīs rare that a non-smoking place will be chosen for the simple fact that there are so few. Plus, to eat in a large restaurant is not so common in Spain - itīs just as likely youīll be eating in a small bar, where there is no space nor funds to create two glass-partitioned areas.

Last edited by Gem; 6th March 2009 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Adding countries where smoking is banned.
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Old 6th March 2009, 05:58 PM   #37
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Reasonable? Hmm! This sounds like a new definition of the word. This is like that grafitti that states, "Be reasonable - Agree with me".
I suppose my problem is that I really don't mind what others do. If that's what turns their crank then that is ok with me. (Of course so long as it is legal and even a few thing that aren't. It is just not my business). And so I don't understand when people start demanding that I should behave in a certain way to please them. (So long as I am not doing something illegal!)
In a society we have all types. As a functioning society we should learn to get along. If there is inequality, and I prepared to admit that the fact there are more places to smoke than not is unequal, then as a society we should remedy that. But we should not impose outright bans. That would be just swinging the pendulum the other way. Too often, within living memory, we have seen the tragedy when that happens.
I find it curious that the smokers here have suggested ways, or showed sympathy with the plight of the non-smoker, but that the non-smokers have not once recognised that.
@VS. I have been in restaurants where the smoking section was simply deliniated but a row of potted ferns. And yes, I thought that was silly.But the new glass-partitioned, well ventilated smoking sections being introduced in restaurants do the job very well.
I think the problem many non-smokers have with smoking is more to do with it being antisocial. It's a bit like somebody sitting next to you in a pub and playing loud music on a ghetto-blaster every 10 minutes or so. They're not doing anything illegal, and maybe if everybody else is doing it then it might be socially acceptable, but if they are in the minority and it is causing a nuisance then people have a right to politely ask that person to turn the music off.

However it might be that that person is unable to turn the music off because they are addicted to it and cannot spend an evening in the pub without blasting out a song or two every 10 minutes. So they continue to do it, and claim that the fact that they do it is nobody else's business and they are not breaking the law. What do you suggest should be done at that point?

Last edited by Legazpi; 6th March 2009 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 6th March 2009, 09:04 PM   #38
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You donīt live in Spain, right? As I mentioned before, itīs very difficult to find a place thatīs non-smoking. Try to find one, then arrange to meet in said bars and restaurants when you want your morning 10-minute-coffee next to your workplace (with colleagues or business clients), menú del día in your lunch break, or after-work caņa. Itīs not simple.

Iīm not condemning smokers - if they want to smoke, fine! Iīm talking about the effects of smoking on me and others. Why should you and me - as non-smokers - have to go somewhere else for someone elseīs antisocial behaviour? The law that still says people can smoke in bars is outdated.

The two are unrelated - each is a different issue, and just because cars are permitted to emit certain levels of pollution doesnīt mean that smokers should be able to smoke in bars! For the record, I go by public transport/bike/my feet, but I think you canīt justify one with another.

I just hope he doesnīt end up sitting next to you when youīre out with friends...

As for cutting smokers slack because theyīve "supported the British economy for years"... maybe smoking related diseases have caused many people to have to use the NHS as well! People, if you want to smoke, do it, just donīt take away my choice to not smoke! And what about children who arenīt old enough to choose which bars they frequent with their family? I personally think itīs good that kids are allowed to socialise with adults and other families in restaurant/bar settings per se, but not with the current laws on smoking.
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Whatīs a major part?

So theyīre still going to the pub then?

Thatīs the idea of the legislation, yes.

I am a non-smoker and would be more likely to do "botellón" now because of the crisis! I donīt think the smoking legislation is the main reason for a fall in attendance in pubs.

...And the non-smokers too.

...And with better health. It may have immediate repurcussions, (although Iīm not sure the Spanish would give up their morning coffee in the bar because of it) but itīs also giving people the choice to avoid smoke pollution and the health system will, in theory, be less pressured by the people suffering with smoking-related diseases. And imagine how many people might spend more time in the pubs because of the more pleasant environment. Iīm not well-versed on the ins and outs of the statistics, but itīs obvious that banning something so damaging to health from public places makes sense.

What?! Letīs stop kidding ourselves, no?

No, whatīs important is that more than 50 000 people die from tabacco consumption in Spain each year, that after smoking a cigarette there are 69 carconogenic chemicals left in the air which can add to the risk of cancer when breathed in, smoking increases - by 70% - the risk of premature death from various diseases which develop through smoking tabacco.

(Taken from the Government of Spain website, published 2008: http://www.pnsd.msc.es/Categoria2/pu...008/tabaco.htm)

Youīre absolutely right. We should not take the liberty of banning smoking in bars, restaurants and clubs until weīve got rid of petrol powered cars. And buses. And planes. And the metro. And trams. Oh, and bikes, because harmful chemicals are produced when they are manufactured. And skateboards, because the planes and ships they use to bring them to Spain from China cause CO2 emissions. And legs, because theyīre attached to the body of the person who eats strawberries imported from South America on a plane.

Or, we can take action step by step, doing what we can to reduce human impact on the environment (on people and on the medio-ambiente). This legislation IS attainable - itīs been implemented successfully by several European countries already.

Some people will give traffic pollution "a break" because there are few alternatives to get from A to B. We can take action to pressure the government (see Greenpeace, for example), or act as individuals to pressure for change in general, which we do, often. This is one branch of that protest.

There are no real excuses not to ban smoking in these public places. The issue should not be economical - itīs a common sense, civilised decision about health.
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Originally Posted by Gem View Post
Ok, made me smile, but nonetheless I can assure you that itīs not all crusty unsociable types who would appreciate a ban. Iīm quite rock n roll really, and would often treat myself to a Mercadona Jazz collection of dried fruit and nuts with my pomegranate juice.

Also, itīs very common (as I imagine you know from living in Madrid) that kids will be taken to bars with their parents, smoking ban or not.

Edith - exactly - itīs horrible to sit down to a meal just as the couple next to you have arrived at the coffee/cigarette stage and you end up eating your entire meal with the taste of smoke.
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I know... and Iīve heard that from friends in England too, that it makes it easier to give up! In the same way, maybe it wouldnīt make smoking *so* accessible and normalised to young people...?
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Originally Posted by Gem View Post
I agree with Edith - until there is a full ban, it just doesnīt work - there are very few places that are non-smoking. Yes, there are a handful of places, but itīs just not feasible (as I have mentioned in previous posts) to find them every time you want to go out for a coffee/beer/meal/sandwich. Thinking honestly of the places Iīve been in the last two weeks, of all of them (including some caņas/tapas, nights out having beers and dancing with friends, numerous coffees, a sushi buffet thing, an Arabic style tea place...) the only non-smoking - I think -was the sushi buffet thing, and even then somebody lit up inside as it approached closing time. If you would like to swap all of the non-smoking bars (donīt forget thatīs counting McDonaldīs, Starbucks and Irish/English bars) for those which are smoking, then maybe weīve got a deal. But what kind of legislation is going to make that a reality? As far as I can imagine (unless there are heavy cash incentives) itīs not - a ban is the only way.

My point is why should anyone (smoker or not) be subjected to breathing in smoke whether they like it or not? Imagine... in an imaginary city somewhere in an imaginary world, that every time you had a beer/coffee in the bar, someone would drop crushed glass into your beer, and then - if you protested - would tell you to go and find a bar where that wasnīt acceptable. Problem is, in this imaginary world, most of the bars in the city find this (albeit strange!) habit completely acceptable, and you really have to search for the bars where you can have your beer in peace. These people with the crushed glass are indiscriminate - they will shake a little into the kidsī coca-cola, on their girlfriendīs pizza and in their mateīs coffee. Yep, there are bars where you donīt have to tragar your beer with a gritty, crystal aftertaste, but theyīre not next to your work where they serve the best menú del día, or downstairs from your flat where you always go for your morning coffee.

How many statistics do we have to quote or convoluted metaphors do we have to create to get across the point that a smoking ban is more than reasonable?!
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Originally Posted by Gem View Post
I think Iīve made my case pretty clear, and to me (and others) it seems very reasonable for all the explications above which I wonīt go through again.

Thatīs very liberal of you. Well, I would mind if somebody elseīs smoke were damaging my health! It IS all of our business! There is a big difference between someone doing their own thing and doing their own thing whilst having a negative impact on others! This is why we have laws! You could just as well say you donīt mind people murdering others. Or child neglect. Itīs our business when it affects the wellbeing of others!

Oh, and in the UK, Italy, Ireland, Norway, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Iceland, Lithuania, Slovakia and Sweden your behaviour WOULD be illegal! Obviously these governments feel it is their business, wouldnīt you say?

How do you suggest they do that? Both Edith and I have said that if itīs possible to have places where both can be accommodated, then fine, but I donīt understand how this can be achieved.

When has putting a stop to an antisocial, destructive behaviour (not person/individual/society) ended in tragedy?

Not true. Edith has said she is all for smoking rooms in the workplace, I have said that if thereīs a way to accommodate both smokers/non-smokers in an implementable way, then great!

You keep talking about restaurants and almost totally missing the points Iīve made various times! Yes, you and your friends can choose to arrange to meet in a non-smoking restaurant, but when you want to just drop in somewhere for a coffee, a lunchtime menú or a coffee itīs not easy! Apart from that, I would rarely return to the same restaurant every time, and to find a new restaurant for each outing which is non-smoking would be almost impossible. Couple that with the fact that you most often donīt have the say on where a group of friends would go, itīs rare that a non-smoking place will be chosen for the simple fact that there are so few. Plus, to eat in a large restaurant is not so common in Spain - itīs just as likely youīll be eating in a small bar, where there is no space nor funds to create two glass-partitioned areas.
So, are you for smoking or against it then?
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Old 7th March 2009, 02:24 PM   #39
stella
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I think Legazpi hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that the problem is more to do with smoking now being considered anti-social.

20 years ago there were smokers and non-smokers and the smokers would smoke in shopping centres, bars, restaurants, even on buses and I think planes? Nobody complained then, or maybe they did but certainly not to the extent that people do now, because smokers were in the majority and it was considered the norm, and their voices weren't heard. However, step by step the smoker has been gradually given less and less freedom with regards to where he or she can smoke. In the UK, at least, the smoking leglislation prohibits smoking in a certain area, the smokers moan about the restrictions while the non-smokers want the smoker to be restricted even further. The difference is that the smoker soon gets used to the new leglislations and for the most part, adhere to the rules, whereas the non-smoker continues to gripe.

Everyone above the age of 15 or so has been surrounded by smoke for a lot of their lives - whether in pubs and restaurants, shopping centres, on public transport etc. The health stance really doesn't make a lot of sense. Aside from that, the non-smoker today assumes that the smoker chooses to smoke and inflict their filthy, cancer-causing habit on the non-smoker. Yet, it's true that the majority of smokers would like to give up - and indeed, due to the increasing restrictions placed upon the smoker, maybe a lot of people have given up. This is a good thing, of course, but the remaining smokers are left feeling guilty for smoking and inflicting their smoke on others. As richardksa says, if a smoker is out in a group that includes at least one non-smoker, the group will usually sit in non-smoking areas of bars and restaurants, and the smoker will often refrain from smoking in the other's company.

I don't smoke (I stopped in 2004) but I'm personally opposed to the smoking ban in pubs and restaurants. In any city centre in the UK you'll see a handful of smokers standing outside pub doorways of an evening. On weekend nights, there are more of them. I think numbers of people standing outside a pub doorway looks threatening. I imagine the effect of this will lesson - we also see numbers of smokers standing outside shopping centres and hospital entrances, university entrances, and at bus stops, and this is considered the norm. But outside pubs, where alcohol is involved, I think is intimidating. I, and the majority of my friends, rarely go out drinking in pubs now, and I believe that the reason is due to the smoking ban.

Aside from the way a bunch of smokers outside pub doorways looks, I fail to see the benefits with regards to health and the non-smoker having to breath in the smoker's fumes. Instead of a couple of smokers smoking inside a well ventilated bar or restaurant, now the non-smoker must walk through a wall of smoke on both entering and exiting the venue. A lot of smokers feel even guiltier for smoking - and why should anyone be made to feel inferior for their lifestyle choice, anti-social or not?

I think the rules have little to do with the rights of the smoker or the non-smoker, but rather they are to do with business and the fact that smoking is today considered anti-social.

In Spain, which is a great deal warmer year-round than the UK, I imagine the situation is different.
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Old 7th March 2009, 04:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stella View Post
I think Legazpi hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that the problem is more to do with smoking now being considered anti-social.

20 years ago there were smokers and non-smokers and the smokers would smoke in shopping centres, bars, restaurants, even on buses and I think planes? Nobody complained then, or maybe they did but certainly not to the extent that people do now, because smokers were in the majority and it was considered the norm, and their voices weren't heard. However, step by step the smoker has been gradually given less and less freedom with regards to where he or she can smoke. In the UK, at least, the smoking leglislation prohibits smoking in a certain area, the smokers moan about the restrictions while the non-smokers want the smoker to be restricted even further. The difference is that the smoker soon gets used to the new leglislations and for the most part, adhere to the rules, whereas the non-smoker continues to gripe.

Everyone above the age of 15 or so has been surrounded by smoke for a lot of their lives - whether in pubs and restaurants, shopping centres, on public transport etc. The health stance really doesn't make a lot of sense. Aside from that, the non-smoker today assumes that the smoker chooses to smoke and inflict their filthy, cancer-causing habit on the non-smoker. Yet, it's true that the majority of smokers would like to give up - and indeed, due to the increasing restrictions placed upon the smoker, maybe a lot of people have given up. This is a good thing, of course, but the remaining smokers are left feeling guilty for smoking and inflicting their smoke on others. As richardksa says, if a smoker is out in a group that includes at least one non-smoker, the group will usually sit in non-smoking areas of bars and restaurants, and the smoker will often refrain from smoking in the other's company.

I don't smoke (I stopped in 2004) but I'm personally opposed to the smoking ban in pubs and restaurants. In any city centre in the UK you'll see a handful of smokers standing outside pub doorways of an evening. On weekend nights, there are more of them. I think numbers of people standing outside a pub doorway looks threatening. I imagine the effect of this will lesson - we also see numbers of smokers standing outside shopping centres and hospital entrances, university entrances, and at bus stops, and this is considered the norm. But outside pubs, where alcohol is involved, I think is intimidating. I, and the majority of my friends, rarely go out drinking in pubs now, and I believe that the reason is due to the smoking ban.

Aside from the way a bunch of smokers outside pub doorways looks, I fail to see the benefits with regards to health and the non-smoker having to breath in the smoker's fumes. Instead of a couple of smokers smoking inside a well ventilated bar or restaurant, now the non-smoker must walk through a wall of smoke on both entering and exiting the venue. A lot of smokers feel even guiltier for smoking - and why should anyone be made to feel inferior for their lifestyle choice, anti-social or not?

I think the rules have little to do with the rights of the smoker or the non-smoker, but rather they are to do with business and the fact that smoking is today considered anti-social.

In Spain, which is a great deal warmer year-round than the UK, I imagine the situation is different.
There is vast amounts of supportive data from reliable sources that argue for smoking being a health hazard to not only the smoker but those in the vicinity of the smoke. Smoking is the number one preventable cause of cardiac arrest and cancer in the US and I would venture that is also true in other similarly developed nations. The decision to ignore these facts and the resultant objectionable imposition from smoking, in my humble opinion, explains why a smoking population in an otherwise increasingly health-conscious society would receive some social rejection and perhaps be made to feel inferior.
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