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Old 1st March 2008, 06:31 PM   #21
DocMolly
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Originally Posted by barry View Post
So, does your book actually state reflexive, it certainly looks reflexive, but since preterite perderse is "to have got lost" " to have disappeared" maybe its an IDO in disguise ( me la perdí (la clase) ), or just for emphasis.
Ummm.... you must study linguistics. This is getting way to deep for me. I'm just trying to improve my Spanish. I don't think too much about the labels placed on everything, just the concepts. But after I get back from skiing I'll see if my book labels it as reflexive.
I do see what you are saying about how the reflexive form is often used just to place emphasis on a phrase rather than in the strict sense of the reflexive construct to act on oneself. For example.
Me comí la barra entera de chocolate.
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Old 1st March 2008, 09:42 PM   #22
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Hola Barry,
I got my grammar book out and it does not actually say it's a reflexive verb, this is what it says, from page 392:
"Spanish uses the verb perder to miss a plane, a train, etc...."
"Spanish uses the verb perderse to miss a show, etc...."
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Old 2nd March 2008, 08:30 AM   #23
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So, does your book actually state reflexive, it certainly looks reflexive, but since preterite perderse is "to have got lost" " to have disappeared" maybe its an IDO in disguise ( me la perdí (la clase) ), or just for emphasis.
It is reflexive and is used in the sense that "something has lost itself to me" - se me han perdido las llaves - I've lost my keys (Lit: the keys have lost themselves to me)
My dict. has 18 meanings for perder/perderse so plenty of room for error!!
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Old 2nd March 2008, 10:58 AM   #24
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It is reflexive and is used in the sense that "something has lost itself to me" - se me han perdido las llaves - I've lost my keys (Lit: the keys have lost themselves to me)
My dict. has 18 meanings for perder/perderse so plenty of room for error!!
Yes, I also have come to the conclusion that it is reflexive but I have had to change the way in which I think of perder and perderse in order to differentiate between missing a mode of transport and missing an event. It probaly only makes sense to me so I won't describe it here ! As for 'se me han perdido las llaves ' I translate it to - My keys have got lost - or less literally - My keys have been mislaid.. I found this expression confusing and explanations in grammar resources less than convincing until I read the history of this expression. Apparently (in wiki somewhere I think) in days of old , spanish academics were charged with finding a means in which politicians and others could express themselves without blaming themselves, or their peers, when confronted with situations that didn't turn out as expected. (Like Iraq )
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Old 2nd March 2008, 01:07 PM   #25
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Apparently (in wiki somewhere I think) in days of old , spanish academics were charged with finding a means in which politicians and others could express themselves without blaming themselves
That's interesting as these expressions have often seemed to me this way -I often see se me olvidó rather than lo olvidé when someone forgets something
although I suppose 'It slipped my mind' rather than 'I forgot it' is kind of like this in toning down the self blame aspect.
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Old 3rd March 2008, 10:16 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by DocMolly View Post
Hola Barry,
I got my grammar book out and it does not actually say it's a reflexive verb, this is what it says, from page 392:
"Spanish uses the verb perder to miss a plane, a train, etc...."
"Spanish uses the verb perderse to miss a show, etc...."
perderse is pronominal but I think it is only reflexive when used in the sense to get lost.
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Old 8th March 2008, 03:18 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by greytop View Post
It is reflexive and is used in the sense that "something has lost itself to me" - se me han perdido las llaves - I've lost my keys (Lit: the keys have lost themselves to me)
the keys have lost themselves to me

Visto así aun me parece mas enrevesada esta forma de hablar.
Con lo sencillo y totalmente diáfano que resultaría : 'He perdido las llaves'.
Pero un 'me' lo hace mas personal, mas mío, mas subjetivo. Hablo del mundo visto por mi mas que del mundo en si.

Y si meto un 'me', hace falta un 'se' para que la frase se entienda.
'Me han perdido las llaves' vendría a decir que alguien mas ha perdido mis llaves,no yo.
Si añado el 'se' es para relacionar las llaves conmigo, o mejor dicho, para relacionar la acción del verbo conmigo, o las dos cosas, no estoy seguro.

Entre la sencilla, objetiva y precisa : 'He perdido las llaves' y la recargada y subjetiva 'Se me han perdido las llaves' pues...
pues me quedo con el 'se me ...' sin pensarlo.

Y al ser la opción que prefiere la gran mayoría, aunque sea mas complicada, supongo que se debe a alguan causa 'sociológica' profunda.

Yo entre otra mucha gente, muchos con estudios, solemos decir 'me se..', 'te se..' y no 'se me..' 'se te..'.
Sabemos que es incorrecto, pero hablar es un acto casi reflejo; uno no piensa una frase y luego la dice, hablar es 'automático'.
Creo que es mas fácil de vocalizar 'me se' que 'se me', y un cerebro en 'piloto automático' pasa mucho de las ordenanzas gramaticales, obedece sólo a sus propias leyes.

'Me se han perdido las llaves' si, pero nunca 'Me se han encontrado las llaves'. En este caso sólo vale 'He encontrado las llaves' o 'Me he encontrado las llaves', y el 'me' molesta mas que otra cosa.
Aqui el 'me' no atrae sino que sobra.

Bien, debo decir que todo lo dicho mas arriba puede tener muchas muchas excepciones.
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Old 8th March 2008, 10:27 AM   #28
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......

Entre la sencilla, objetiva y precisa : 'He perdido las llaves' y la recargada y subjetiva 'Se me han perdido las llaves' pues...
pues me quedo con el 'se me ...' sin pensarlo.
........
'Me se han perdido las llaves' si, pero nunca 'Me se han encontrado las llaves'. En este caso sólo vale 'He encontrado las llaves' o 'Me he encontrado las llaves', y el 'me' molesta mas que otra cosa.
Aqui el 'me' no atrae sino que sobra.

Bien, debo decir que todo lo dicho mas arriba puede tener muchas muchas excepciones.
Thanks yunouguaramin.
This maybe backs up Barry's point about "blame". It was not me who LOST the keys - they've lost themselves. But I'll take credit for finding them!
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Old 8th March 2008, 11:37 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yunouguaramin View Post
.

Yo entre otra mucha gente, muchos con estudios, solemos decir 'me se..', 'te se..' y no 'se me..' 'se te..'.
Sabemos que es incorrecto, pero hablar es un acto casi reflejo; uno no piensa una frase y luego la dice, hablar es 'automático'.
Creo que es mas fácil de vocalizar 'me se' que 'se me', y un cerebro en 'piloto automático' pasa mucho de las ordenanzas gramaticales, obedece sólo a sus propias leyes.


Bien, debo decir que todo lo dicho mas arriba puede tener muchas muchas excepciones.
Curiously the word order ' me se ' ' te se ' in preference to the correct order ' se me ' ' se te ' is more in line with the word order expected by english ears. Maybe there has been an english influence on this structure. In my limited experience, I find that in the north of spain and mexico the grammatical structure is more aligned towards english.
However in this case I hear the ' se me ' version the most. Maybe I haven't noticed. In fact it seems to be more of complete word :' seme ' ' sete ' . In the video somewhere on this forum , where the girl is showing the use of a fushia as an earring, and it accidently falls of, the remark made by the camera man was ' se te cayó ' It fell off (you).
The remark was made in 'piloto automático' and sounded more like setecayó.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yunouguaramin View Post
.
Bien, debo decir que todo lo dicho mas arriba puede tener muchas muchas excepciones.
So obviously the usage varies by region.


For those who have been following this thread I did a little more research on the usage of perder perderse in respect to ' to miss ' . These conclusions are my own and not drawn from any particular grammar source so just come to your own conclusions and disregard any errors.


PERDER AND PERDERSE FALTAR 'to miss '

Falté a clase = I was missing from class ... I missed class.. note preposition 'a'.
Me perdí la clase (pronominal/emphatic) = I gave the class a miss or I missed the class.
Perdí la clase.....(context required) = I missed the class ..... due to ...... circumstanses beyond my control
The differences in english are differentiated by a change in tone and emphasis.
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Old 13th March 2008, 05:14 PM   #30
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I am very impressed with all this erudition which is way beyond me. Those who are equally lost may be comforted by knowing that the same concept is equally difficult (for English speakers) in French. Il me manque quelque chose.
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Old 13th March 2008, 07:57 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by yunouguaramin View Post

'Me se han perdido las llaves' si, .
Noooo! ¡Se me han perdido las llaves!
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Old 13th March 2008, 08:13 PM   #32
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Noooo! ¡Se me han perdido las llaves!
Me se han perdido...

Yes, it is not correct, but is a extended issue.

I think both ways should be correct.

Primero fue el habla, DESPUES vino la gramática.

Escúchanos R.A.E ... y si no, peor para ti.
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Old 14th March 2008, 12:35 AM   #33
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cuando estoy estudiando el espanol,

me hace sentir falta una cabeza......
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Old 14th March 2008, 06:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by yunouguaramin View Post
Me se han perdido...

Yes, it is not correct, but is a extended issue.

I think both ways should be correct.
I'm not convinced, so I asked a Spanish friend, and he says "me se han'' would be regarded as very bad Spanish.
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Old 14th March 2008, 08:24 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeyas View Post
I'm not convinced, so I asked a Spanish friend, and he says "me se han'' would be regarded as very bad Spanish.
Those people live more than 1000 km far from me...




Google->Buscar->"me se ha" Resultados : 21700 en 0,28 segundos.

Somos malos, somos feos, pero somos tantos...
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Old 23rd April 2008, 02:47 PM   #36
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Default Comprehensive list of verbs like "gustar", "faltar", etc

Can anyone point to a site which might have a comprehensive list of the most commonly used verbs that work like gustar, bastar, faltar, importar, etc.
Thanks
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Old 23rd April 2008, 03:28 PM   #37
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A lot of them are in Bowdoin (ch 39) or another look at the common ones in spanish.about.com

Another list added

Last edited by greytop; 23rd April 2008 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2008, 04:57 PM   #38
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Muchas gracias...de otro hombre canoso.
MJC
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Old 24th April 2008, 09:21 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by yunouguaramin View Post
Those people live more than 1000 km far from me...

Google->Buscar->"me se ha" Resultados : 21700 en 0,28 segundos.

Somos malos, somos feos, pero somos tantos...
La canción original es "Se me va". Nota que cada vez que dicen "me se va" la(s) chica(s) se rie(n).
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Old 24th April 2008, 06:12 PM   #40
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I am not particularly well educated and my ambience is not very academic either, but none of my Spanish speaking friends would EVER use "me se" unless in humorous situations, pretending to emulate the parlance of very uneducated people.

I would only use it if the context makes perfectly clear that I am aware of the incorrectness of the construction and just pretending to spice up my speech with a funny colloquial tone.

As for the difference between falté a clase and (me) perdí una clase, I would say the first is used when you missed the class on purpose, whether the latter would be used when you missed a class for unvoluntary reasons.

I do not really see a difference between me perdí and perdí, but I do notice a tendence in the colloquial language to use reflexive pronouns where they are not needed, at least in some areas of Spain. Like in "Dite algo" or "bájate una cerveza".
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