Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum Learn REAL Spanish now!  

Go Back   Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum > Spanish Forum > Spanish Basics - Vocab and Grammar Q & A

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 19th October 2008, 03:35 PM   #1
Petrichor
Super Forero
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: India
Posts: 133
Default Problem with subjunctive

Given below are quotes from two of the podcasts. Could anyone explain to me why the subjunctive has been used in them. It looks to me that both sentences talk about actual occurrences. Facts. So why was the indicative not used?

1. "Me da mucha rabia que el vecino toque el piano tan tarde."

2. "Bueno, pues lo que más destaca es la disciplina, en Inglaterra hay como una obsesión porque todos los niños se sienten a la vez, se pongan de pie, hagan la fila y parece que los profesores se pueden sentir orgullosos si la fila de su clase es perfecta."
Petrichor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 03:50 PM   #2
gary
Samuri Forero
 
gary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 2,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrichor View Post
Given below are quotes from two of the podcasts. Could anyone explain to me why the subjunctive has been used in them. It looks to me that both sentences talk about actual occurrences. Facts. So why was the indicative not used?

1. "Me da mucha rabia que el vecino toque el piano tan tarde."

2. "Bueno, pues lo que más destaca es la disciplina, en Inglaterra hay como una obsesión porque todos los niños se sienten a la vez, se pongan de pie, hagan la fila y parece que los profesores se pueden sentir orgullosos si la fila de su clase es perfecta."
1. I am no expert in this field but from recalling my lessons from Barcelona this summer when the feelings/actions of one person are as a result of the action of another = subjunctive.
2. I think this is the thing about not wishing to state categorically that such and such is the case, but rather to convey an idea that the satements are so = subjunctive

As the worlds least authoratative person on the subjubctive in Spanish, were I to be incorrect, I would be happy to be set straight.

(The subjunctive in English is in red)
gary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 04:12 PM   #3
delgado
Mega Forero
 
delgado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Sebastián (Bidebieta)
Posts: 377
Default

Maybe this site could help you with the subjuntive.....

http://www.studyspanish.com/tutorial.htm
delgado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 06:24 PM   #4
eventer289
Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 45
Default

I'm not sure about the second one, but the first phrase is proceeded by the subjunctive because "Me da rabia" is a personal expression that needs the subjuntion, just like "Me alegro de que", etc.

EDIT: I'm with my Costa Rican friend right now, and I asked him about the second phrase. He says the reason why is because in #2, the subjunctive serves as a form of command, in that these actions refer to what the teacher wants the students to do.

Last edited by eventer289; 19th October 2008 at 06:26 PM.
eventer289 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 06:47 PM   #5
xan
Super Forero
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 163
Default

1) is pretty standard stuff. Subordinate clause attached to a statement where you're expressing some sort of emotion or value judgement or wish in the main clause. Something like, for example "it really annoys me that people park illegally in handicapped spots" Or "I hope that you can come tomorrow". Rendered into spanish both those would take the subjunctive for "park" or "can come"

regarding 2), eventer289 may be onto something--it does have a whiff of command about it--but an alternate explanation is that porque should actually be para que. it reads better that way for me, and it is clear using para que that we're talking about an intention or wish on the part of the scholastic authorities, which then falls under the same heading as 1)

The best and most authoritative guide to the subjunctive in actual usage, as far as I'm concerned, is the relevant chapter in Butt and Benjamin's New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish. Suffice to say that most textbooks get it at least partially wrong.
xan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 07:12 PM   #6
Beckett
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 897
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xan View Post
...that porque should actually be para que.
Bingo! You nailed it.

And the phrase "para que" is always followed by the subjunctive.
Beckett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 08:16 PM   #7
gary
Samuri Forero
 
gary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 2,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xan View Post
1)
regarding 2), eventer289 may be onto something--it does have a whiff of command about it--but an alternate explanation is that porque should actually be para que. it reads better that way for me, and it is clear using para que that we're talking about an intention or wish on the part of the scholastic authorities, which then falls under the same heading as 1)
this is what I had in mind but puts it much better
gary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 07:04 PM   #8
Margot
ViajeraVerdaderaVirtual
 
Margot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1,305
Default

I agree with what's been said...but to be a little more specific:
1. One of the gazillion times the subjunctive comes into play is:
subordinate noun clauses which express the emotive perceptions or attitudes of the speaker or subject

2.Eventers Costan Rican friend - of course - explains it very well - the students are responding to an (implied) command which requires the subjunctive; most tenses in the imperative mood use the same declinations as the subjunctive tense ( tho both the positive 'tu' and 'vosotros' tenses are exceptions....what's a "Rule" without its golden exception? )

Hope this clears it up a bit......
Margot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 08:49 PM   #9
Cide Hamete Benengeli VII
Super Forero
 
Cide Hamete Benengeli VII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: U.S.
Posts: 209
Default

By the way, it would be helpful if you identified the specific podcasts that you're referring to, as well as the point in each podcast at which the statements that you’ve attributed to Marina can be found. Not that I doubt the accuracy of your transcription, but, that way, we can at least all be sure about what she said. If we don't get that right, then any comments we make may not be wholly relevant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrichor View Post
Given below are quotes from two of the podcasts. Could anyone explain to me why the subjunctive has been used in them....
Cide Hamete Benengeli VII is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Learn REAL Spanish now!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.