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Old 21st July 2008, 06:48 PM   #21
Acosta
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Originally Posted by richardksa View Post
One particular problem the Spanish have is with the letter X. Luxury becomes Loo-sery, Expect is espect. Ask is ak-es. I make my victims at the English Town repeat, "I expect six boxes".
One lady could not pronounce "Executive" because of the X and too many rapid syllables. I had her break it down into four bits which she then had to pronounce seperately while beating out the rhythm of the word with her hand. Later, when giving a presentation where she had to use the word I was amused to see that she paused, prepared herself, then drummed out the word on her backside. But she said it prefectly.
I use the same technique for multi-syllabled Spanish words. Try it with ejercicio. 5 beats, each taken slowly: e-hair-thith-ee-oo. I works.

Explain, becomes Splain like ricky ricardo,

Lucy you got some splaining to do
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Old 21st July 2008, 07:54 PM   #22
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Ejercicio… where is the problem? In ‘cicio’ I suposse…

Try with the future subjunctive of ‘ejercer’ :

yo ejerciere
tu ejercieres
vosotros ejerciéreis (esta tiene premio)
ellos ejercieren.

Try the second plural of pretérito imperfecto : vosotros ejercíais…
I guess 3 vocals for you is like ‘a cluster of consonants’ for us… simply impossible mission.


A few of my problems:

The final ‘ed’ in past tenses, walk -> walked, I never hear ‘gualked’, always ‘gualk’ and sometimes, using my imagination I think, something like ‘gualkd’ or ‘gualkt’, with the final ‘d’ or ‘t’ very ‘aspirated’.

Can’t, I can’t distinguish ‘can’ from ‘can’t’. Do you pronounce the ‘t’ ?

Shit – sheet, sheep – ship, I can’t see the difference, or I can see the difference, is the same to me.

Spain – Espain, really true what you say, I (we) can’t see any difference, and you don’t neither, porque no hay ninguna, a mí no me engañais!!.

It was impossible to me to pronounce ‘desks’ until I tried like if it were not two, but three words, ‘desk’ – ‘ks’ – ‘ks’.
I’ve been told that it works. You can prove that with ‘ejercicio’…

Only a few, there’s a lot more.


I don’t agree with Richardksa; las ‘x’ aquí son bien sonoras y contundentes
exponer –> ecsponer, fácil.

Debe ser de Madrid pa’ bajo donde empiezan las dificultades. Pasese por Barcelona o Zaragoza o Santander y compruebe las x tan preciosas que gastamos por aquí.

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Old 21st July 2008, 08:13 PM   #23
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Can’t, I can’t distinguish ‘can’ from ‘can’t’. Do you pronounce the ‘t’ ?
He he , I've never noticed before how 'light' the 't' in can't is. Thinking about it, I think it's not so much the 't' that differentiates the words by sound, but the differing sounds of each 'a'.

In the name Abraham, each 'a' is pronounced differently. Can you differentiate these three 'a' s when you say the name Abraham?
Unfortunately I don't know the phonetic descriptions of letters but I'm sure someone else here does.....
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Old 21st July 2008, 09:23 PM   #24
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I've never noticed before how 'light' the 't' in can't is. Thinking about it, I think it's not so much the 't' that differentiates the words by sound, but the differing sounds of each 'a'.
Indeed! Nor had I. In analysing the sounds, I agree that it's the A that makes the difference, although I think that North Americans pronounce the t lighter than the Brits.

Great mention of Abraham. It's noted for future discussion the next time I'm in Spain.

Quote:
ejerciéreis
Just when I was getting the hang of "ejercicio" you have to go and spoil it.
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Old 21st July 2008, 09:43 PM   #25
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Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril, rápido ruedan los carros, por los rieles del ferrocarril.

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Old 21st July 2008, 10:07 PM   #26
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Lo tengo así:

Erre con erre cigarro

Erre con erre barril

Rápidos corren los carros

En la linea de ferrocarril

(pase lo que pase es buena para las errrrrrrrrrres)
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Old 21st July 2008, 10:13 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tad View Post
(pase lo que pase es buena para las errrrrrrrrrres)
Absolutely! In my mind, this tongue-twister (which is from Mexico) always conjures up an image of Pancho Villa grinning broadly while he pronounces those words. ¡Arrrrrrrriba! ¡Ándale! Must be those trains, I guess...
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Old 21st July 2008, 11:26 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by yunouguaramin View Post
Can’t, I can’t distinguish ‘can’ from ‘can’t’. Do you pronounce the ‘t’ ?

In certain accents the final t in, for example can't or night, is realised as a glottal rather than an alveolar stop. Glotal stops can replace t's in other positions, too, such as in bottle or Betty. This is viewed by many, though, as a low prestige form of speech.
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Old 21st July 2008, 11:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tad View Post
Lo tengo así:

Erre con erre cigarro

Erre con erre barril

Rápidos corren los carros

En la linea de ferrocarril

(pase lo que pase es buena para las errrrrrrrrrres)
Coincidentally I've been looking for variations of this recently. There seem to be a fair few:
Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido ruedan los carros cargados de azúcar al/del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros cargados de azúcar del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Qué rápido corren los carros llevando el azúcar del ferrocarril.

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros cargados de caña en el ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corre el carro repleto de ferro en el ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros sobre los rieles del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido ruedan los carros por los rieles del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren las ruedas de los carros del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Mira qué rápido corren los carros del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros, los carros de ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
¡Qué rápido corren los carros del ferrocarril!
Does anyone know any others?
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Old 22nd July 2008, 01:48 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tad View Post
He he , I've never noticed before how 'light' the 't' in can't is. Thinking about it, I think it's not so much the 't' that differentiates the words by sound, but the differing sounds of each 'a'.
I understand. My expectatives were wrong. I was searching for the sunrise, and I was looking into the West !!.
It’s a language, not mathematics or logic, great.
Quote:
In the name Abraham, each 'a' is pronounced differently. Can you differentiate these three 'a' s when you say the name Abraham?
Unfortunately I don't know the phonetic descriptions of letters but I'm sure someone else here does.....
Sounds great!
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Old 22nd July 2008, 12:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by gastephen View Post
In certain accents ..... This is viewed by many, though, as a low prestige form of speech.
Yeah, well tha's the way we do i' in palmers green (innit)


Quote:
Originally Posted by gastephen View Post
... is realised as a glottal rather than an alveolar stop. Glotal stops can replace t's in other positions, too, such as in bottle or Betty.
JP (er, from somewhere else) made a good point about these 'glottal stops, as in 'bottle' (he cited the way that Americans say 'putty') -they have the sound of the Spanish single 'r'.

By the way, 'Mr. glottal rather than an alveolar stop' you have now qualified yourself to explain to yunouguaramin the pronunciation of the 3 'a' s of Abraham and how the one in 'can' differs from the one in 'can't'.

(Of course yun, in 'correct' English, one should clearly pronounce the 't')

Last edited by tad; 22nd July 2008 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 12:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gastephen View Post
Coincidentally I've been looking for variations of this recently. There seem to be a fair few:
Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido ruedan los carros cargados de azúcar al/del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros cargados de azúcar del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Qué rápido corren los carros llevando el azúcar del ferrocarril.

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros cargados de caña en el ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corre el carro repleto de ferro en el ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros sobre los rieles del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido ruedan los carros por los rieles del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren las ruedas de los carros del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Mira qué rápido corren los carros del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros, los carros de ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros del ferrocarril

Erre con erre cigarro, erre con erre barril
¡Qué rápido corren los carros del ferrocarril!
Does anyone know any others?
dont let pepino see this he'll be waking up in a cold sweat
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Old 22nd July 2008, 12:30 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by gary View Post
dont let pepino see this he'll be waking up in a cold sweat
If anyone wants me, I´ll be in the corner having a nervous breakdown. I´ll try to keep it quiet.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 01:13 PM   #34
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If anyone wants me, I´ll be in the corner having a nervous breakdown. I´ll try to keep it quiet.
Sorry about that, old chap.
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Old 22nd July 2008, 01:33 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tad View Post
Yeah, well tha's the way we do i' in palmers green (innit)
innit or inni' ?

I tend to glottalise t's at the ends of words - when I say last night, for example, it probably sounds more like lassnigh'. And as for t's in the middle of words, I don't think I glottalise those, although I wouldn't be surprised if at times I do in casual speech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tad View Post
By the way, 'Mr. glottal rather than an alveolar stop' you have now qualified yourself to explain to yunouguaramin the pronunciation of the 3 'a' s of Abraham and how the one in 'can' differs from the one in 'can't'.
Not sure about that! Vowels are a bit tricky, aren't they? With regards to Abraham, I'd say the first 'a' was a diphthong (ei), the second a schwa, and the third a 'normal' one (for want of the proper term - is it a front, open, unrounded one?).

I always find descriptions of English vowel sounds a bit confusing, especially when they are illustrated by example words, as these rarely correspond to the way I pronounce them.

I remember having a discussion before about cot/caught sounding the same or not (and, of course, their pronunciations are identical ).
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Old 22nd July 2008, 01:50 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by gastephen View Post
innit or inni' ?
I remember having a discussion before about cot/caught sounding the same or not (and, of course, their pronunciations are identical ).
Well, they are for Gordon Brown, its a problem.

In my part of the world cot rhymes with not and caught is the same ad court - both with a glottal (or should I say glo'al) stop instead of a final t ...
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Old 22nd July 2008, 02:02 PM   #37
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And our Ts sound like Ds at times as in bottle (pronounced here as boddle). Isn't diversity great?!
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Old 22nd July 2008, 02:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hullite View Post
I think "crisps" with its monster consonant cluster is a devil for Spanish learners...
The Ghanaian workers here have trouble with that, they all say 'crips'

Quote:
Originally Posted by gastephen View Post
the second a schwa...
I'm sure you're making half of these words up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValenciaSon View Post
And our Ts sound like Ds at times as in bottle (pronounced here as boddle).
...which is how to say the single Spanish 'r'
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Old 22nd July 2008, 02:54 PM   #39
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In my part of the world cot rhymes with not and caught is the same ad court - both with a glottal (or should I say glo'al) stop instead of a final t ...
Ey Up! Ah reckon tha's torkin nonsinse. Ah'm a Yorkshu lad and tha'nose that we allus prernowns us Ts an we never use t'glottal stop. Tha's ded reet abaht cot an caught tho.

Cheers
Ken

(now safely living in Chester)
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Old 22nd July 2008, 03:21 PM   #40
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I confess that I use the glottal T a fair bit, although less these days as I´ve gotten used to making more of an effort to speak better when talking in English so that people here can understand me.

My mum´s the best though... she says things like "hospikul", "kekkle" and "bokkle". Bless her.
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