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Old 24th October 2008, 03:31 PM   #1
geo555
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Default Como se dice "I want you to do it"?

My guess is quiero que lo hagas
pero no estoy seguro.
I am a beginner.
Can anybody help? thanks
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Old 24th October 2008, 03:59 PM   #2
Legazpi
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You've got it right.

You'll also hear Spaniards drop the "quiero" and just say "¡que lo hagas!" or "¡que lo hagas tú!" since the use of the subjunctive (hagas) is sufficient to communicate that the speaker is expressing a desire.
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Old 31st October 2008, 12:28 AM   #3
switch007
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Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
You've got it right.

You'll also hear Spaniards drop the "quiero" and just say "¡que lo hagas!" or "¡que lo hagas tú!" since the use of the subjunctive (hagas) is sufficient to communicate that the speaker is expressing a desire.
That's interesting, I'd never thought about it like that! Your posts are very useful Legazpi
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Old 6th November 2008, 08:46 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
You've got it right.

You'll also hear Spaniards drop the "quiero" and just say "¡que lo hagas!" or "¡que lo hagas tú!" since the use of the subjunctive (hagas) is sufficient to communicate that the speaker is expressing a desire.
the most common form of this use (dropping the quiero), as far as I can tell, is:

¡Que te calles!

or maybe i just talk too much
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Old 6th November 2008, 09:52 PM   #5
Acosta
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the most common form of this use (dropping the quiero), as far as I can tell, is:

¡Que te calles!

or maybe i just talk too much

Pero nunca podemos olvidar

¡Por qué no te callas!


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Old 6th November 2008, 10:20 PM   #6
Beckett
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Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
You've got it right.

You'll also hear Spaniards drop the "quiero" and just say "¡que lo hagas!" or "¡que lo hagas tú!" since the use of the subjunctive (hagas) is sufficient to communicate that the speaker is expressing a desire.
Just to clarify for Geo555 since he/she is a beginner...the ¡que lo hagas! phrases are more like an emphatic command or an order rather than a mild request, more akin to saying "Just do it!" or "YOU do it!
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Old 6th November 2008, 10:44 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
You've got it right.

You'll also hear Spaniards drop the "quiero" and just say "¡que lo hagas!" or "¡que lo hagas tú!" since the use of the subjunctive (hagas) is sufficient to communicate that the speaker is expressing a desire.
I agree with Beckett:

Quiero que lo hagas. = I want you to do it.

¡Que lo hagas! = (I've told you many times that you have to) do it!
¡Que lo hagas! = (Don't make me annoyed. I've already told you to) do it!

Actually, it has nothing to do with subjunctive "per se". It is a short for:

¡(Te he dicho) que lo hagas!

Far from being the same. Subjunctive is only used for one reason, but most books believe in the there-are-a-thousand-reasons rule.
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Old 6th November 2008, 11:22 PM   #8
Legazpi
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Thanks for the clarification Beckett and Lazarus1907. I was aware (to an extent) that they weren't quite the same, so I should have elaborated a bit. However I thought it was worth mentioning to demonstrate how powerful the subjunctive is in the sense that on its own it can be enough to show that you are expressing a desire. When I first heard "¡Que lo hagas!" type phrases being used I began to get a better feel for the imperative as well, which is closely related.
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Old 10th November 2008, 05:01 AM   #9
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Default help me too

could someone tell me what is wrong with "yo quiero tu/su hacerlo" so I can learn. signed, beginner
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Old 10th November 2008, 09:34 AM   #10
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could someone tell me what is wrong with "yo quiero tu/su hacerlo" so I can learn. signed, beginner
Without the tu/su which don't mean anything you are saying "I want to do it". The posts above use the subjunctive mood, so if you have not got that far in your studies you'll find it a bit confusing - but it's the way it's done in Spanish so you have that to look forward to.
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Old 10th November 2008, 11:50 AM   #11
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could someone tell me what is wrong with "yo quiero tu/su hacerlo" so I can learn. signed, beginner



Presumably you are trying to translate word for word english to spanish. This is generally a no-no.

'I want you to do it '. At one time this would have been expressed in english as ' I want that you do it '. In english the 'that' is now generally dropped , but in spanish it is retained.

Why a 'that' ? Well, because there is a change of subject. I want that you do it

Why subjunctive? Well, because in spanish , expressing desire towards another. ' Quiero que tú.....' calls for the subjunctive tense.

In english the subjunctive is often ,but not always, expressed by intonation so it is not so clear for learners of spanish to identify subjunctive use. My advice would be to learn the common subjunctive triggers at some later stage.

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Originally Posted by lazarus1907 View Post
Far from being the same. Subjunctive is only used for one reason, but most books believe in the there-are-a-thousand-reasons rule.
The list of subjunctive triggers given in grammar books are the same as taught to spanish natives in spanish schools. Over a period of just one or two generations what is taught in the schools becomes general usage anyway.

'No creo que + subjunctive' is one item on that list. A google search of newspapers (NEWS) using that phrase identifies the correct literary form. Presuming of course that all periodistas have a grounding in spanish grammar.

Google NEWS Results for no-creo-que-es. (including ....... no , Creo que es) = 28
Google NEWS Results for no-creo-que-es. (not including ....... no , Creo que es) = 9
Google NEWS Results for no-creo-que-sea = 1,168

1,168 to 9 = a ratio of 130 to 1
Allowing for a margin of error on the part of some authors, one can safely say that "no creo que sea" is the correct literary form and that "no creo que es" is virtually non existent .

A more general search reveals:
3,570,000 to 183,000 a ratio of 20-1 shows that 'No creo que + subjunctive' is in general usage by the wide majority of spanish speakers.

Another error can be to accept that a spanish verb has exactly the same meaning as its english counterpart.

The english ' to believe' sometimes has less certainty in its meaning than does its spanish counterpart Creer. There is more certainty in Creer. Which is why 'Creo que' is generally followed by indicative, and 'No creo que' is followed by subjunctive.
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Old 10th November 2008, 02:18 PM   #12
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...The english ' to believe' sometimes has less certainty in its meaning than does its spanish counterpart Creer. There is more certainty in Creer. Which is why 'Creo que' is generally followed by indicative, and 'No creo que' is followed by subjunctive.
That is something I have often wondered about.

It seems that in English there are a few verbs such as "to believe", "to assume", "to think", and "to seem" that offer greater scope for communicating uncertainty than their Spanish counterparts ("creer", "suponer", "pensar", "parecer").

For example in English you can say "well, I think she will do it" and the inclination can communicate that the speaker is not really sure whether she will do it or not (i.e. there is some doubt). However in Spanish it seems that if you say "pues, pienso que lo hará" the fact that you must use the indicative after "pensar" leaves you no scope for expressing doubt. You are restricted to communicating that you are certain that she will do it. If you want to express doubt then you have to pick another verb.

Any thoughts?

Last edited by Legazpi; 10th November 2008 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 10th November 2008, 03:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
However in Spanish it seems that if you say "pues, pienso que lo hará" the fact that you must use the indicative after "pensar" leaves you no scope for expressing doubt. You are restricted to communicating that you are certain that she will do it. If you want to express doubt then you have to pick another verb.

Any thoughts?
I always think that using 'que podría ........' or ' que debería.....' , with any infinitive expresses a certain amount of doubt more so than 'que conditional'. Using your example 'Pienso que lo hará ' is definite but 'Pienso que lo harías' expresses condition so is not so definite. 'Pienso que podría hacerlo ' to me is even less definite.
The flippant use of the subjunctive is quite common in street spanish. 'Pienso que lo haga' doesn't obey the recognised grammar rules but it still conveys the doubt. 'I think he might do it'
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Old 10th November 2008, 07:36 PM   #14
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The english ' to believe' sometimes has less certainty in its meaning than does its spanish counterpart Creer. There is more certainty in Creer. Which is why 'Creo que' is generally followed by indicative, and 'No creo que' is followed by subjunctive.
In the first person, "No creo que" must be subjunctive, because indicative is used to tell others what you think or believe, so a sentence like:

*No creo que mi mujer viene mañana.

should be perfectly compatible with another one like:

No creo que mi mujer viene mañana, pero en mi opinión, mi mujer viene mañana.

which, of course, it doesn't make sense. Indicative is not allowed here.

However, you could easily say:

Leonardo no cree que mi mujer viene mañana, pero en mi opinión, mi mujer viene mañana.

Leonardo can believe whatever he wants, but I avoid agreeing with him by declaring that "she is coming" in indicative. Therefore, we are allowed to add that "in my opinion my wife is coming tomorrow", but it would be redundant, since this has already been stated by choosing indicative.So, the rule about "creer" takes indicative, and "no creer" takes subjunctive cannot be given as a God's commandment. I think it is better to understand why.

Last edited by lazarus1907; 10th November 2008 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 10th November 2008, 07:37 PM   #15
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The flippant use of the subjunctive is quite common in street spanish. 'Pienso que lo haga' doesn't obey the recognised grammar rules but it still conveys the doubt. 'I think he might do it'
I don't know where people say "Pienso que lo haga", but I've never heard that from a a Spanish native in my life. I've checked with friends of mine from many Latin American countries, and they all say that is sounds horrible.

Actually, it sounds like the sort of mistake that you'd expect from someone whose main mother tongue is not Spanish, after having heard this absurd rule about "subjunctive is used to express doubt". If it is subjunctive, you should be able to say what you think afterwards, even if this disagrees with the subjunctive part, since it doesn't declare:

Pienso que lo haga, pero pienso que no lo hará.

Last edited by lazarus1907; 10th November 2008 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 13th November 2008, 01:59 PM   #16
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The flippant use of the subjunctive is quite common in street spanish. 'Pienso que lo haga' doesn't obey the recognised grammar rules but it still conveys the doubt. 'I think he might do it'
I too have heard the subjuntive misused to replaced the future tense amongst Spanish speakers (in Spain), not so much used in a conditional sense but more to covey a future action (replacing the indicative when it is grammatically incorrect to do so)......

Eg.

1 .El próximo fin de semana esté (estaré) allí (I will be there next weekend)

I guess that this misuse stems from the subjuntive being used (correctly) after "cuando" in phrases such as " te llamaré cuando esté allí" .

However, If I speak like this then I am promptly corrected.(using the subjuntive instead of the indicative as in example 1)

Last edited by delgado; 14th November 2008 at 02:56 PM. Reason: comment badly articulated + accents added
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Old 13th November 2008, 02:49 PM   #17
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I've removed the original post I made here as it didn't add anything useful to delgado's comments or the thread-and I had misunderstood his original post anyway!

Last edited by tad; 13th November 2008 at 06:56 PM. Reason: post confused the thread
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Old 13th November 2008, 02:59 PM   #18
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I too have heard the subjunctive misused to replaced the future tense amongst Spanish speakers (in Spain), not so much used in a conditional sense but more to covey a future action......

Eg.

El proximo fin de semana este (estare) alli (I will be there next weekend)

I guess that this misuse stems from the subjuntive being used after "cuando" in phrases such as " te llamare cuando este alli" .

However, If I speak like this then I am promptly corrected.


The subjunctive is used to refer to a future situation. It is not an incorrect usage. In fact, it is a key part of the subjunctive.

There is a whole category of adverbs in Spanish that are "time adverbs" and you use the subjunctive with them when referring to the future. Cuando is one of those time adverbs that requires the subjunctive when referring to the future. Punto.

Now, if you're talking about something that happened in the past or is happening in the present or is part of a regular routine, then you use the indicativo. But do not tell yourself that the subjunctive is never used in a future context because it is.

El próximo fin de semana que esté alli
, I would interpret as "The next weekend that I'm there...." referring to some weekend in the future, not necessarily the weekend that is coming up.

Te llamáre cuando esté allí is 100% correct. If anyone is correcting you when you say "Te llamaré cuando esté allí" they're wrong and you're right.
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Old 13th November 2008, 03:24 PM   #19
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I too have heard the subjuntive misused to replaced the future tense amongst Spanish speakers (in Spain), not so much used in a conditional sense but more to covey a future action......

Eg.

El proximo fin de semana este (estare) alli (I will be there next weekend)

I guess that this misuse stems from the subjuntive being used after "cuando" in phrases such as " te llamare cuando este alli" .

However, If I speak like this then I am promptly corrected.
When I hear or read the subjuntive which to my mind doesn't obey the rules (which is so frequent that it disturbs me) I try to accept it as correct because there is no way of knowing what thoughts are running through the speakers head, especially when there is no access to the audio which would then include intonation.

In your example I would assume that the speaker is talking about a future event of 'alli' , due to the fact that subjubctive has been used after cuando.

'Te llamaré cuando este alli el viernes' maybe sounds better.
This would then definitely obey the rule "subjunctive after cuando only when referring to future events".

The example I gave of incorrect use I saw in a comic strip which is a good place to get a handle on the lingo spoken by youth. However, even in more reliable sources I see the sporadic use of subjuntive. No governing verb , no introduction, nothing except that it suddenly appears. 'Pueda' is very common , as is any hint of negation .Donde is another which seems to be ok as a trigger for subjunctive. However this apparent misuse nearly always seems to sound ok to me even to the point of sounding better than the correct grammar, and is probaly colloquial somewhere in the spanish world,. Whether or not it sounds funny to some natives ears is another question. Its a bit like hearing someone say - I will call you when you will be here.-
for - I will call you when you arrive-.
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Old 13th November 2008, 04:34 PM   #20
Legazpi
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The subjunctive is used to refer to a future situation. It is not an incorrect usage. In fact, it is a key part of the subjunctive.

There is a whole category of adverbs in Spanish that are "time adverbs" and you use the subjunctive with them when referring to the future. Cuando is one of those time adverbs that requires the subjunctive when referring to the future. Punto.

Now, if you're talking about something that happened in the past or is happening in the present or is part of a regular routine, then you use the indicativo. But do not tell yourself that the subjunctive is never used in a future context because it is.

El próximo fin de semana que esté alli
, I would interpret as "The next weekend that I'm there...." referring to some weekend in the future, not necessarily the weekend that is coming up.

Te llamáre cuando esté allí is 100% correct. If anyone is correcting you when you say "Te llamaré cuando esté allí" they're wrong and you're right.
But Delgado has not said that Te llamáre cuando esté allí is incorrect. Neither has he said that the subjunctive is never used in a future context.

He simply suggested that because the subjunctive is used after cuando when refering to the future, people incorrectly use it in other phrases that refer to the future, when in fact they should be using the indicative.

Delgado's phrase I will be there next weekend is indeed one of those cases where the subjunctive is not used (the speaker is making a declaration). He is correct in saying it should be translated using the indicative, e.g. El próximo fin de semana, estaré allí (or perhaps Estaré allí el próximo fin de semana is better). Translating it as El próximo fin de semana que esté alli gives the phrase a different meaning, as you have said, but that is not the meaning the speaker is trying to convey in his example.
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