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#1 | ||||||
Hero Forero
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,421
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Hi,
We were recently advised by a lawyer than the posting of text or images in the forum where the copyright is not owned by the person who makes the post, could land us in serious trouble, and lead to Notes from Spain being shut down. This basically means that you can only post an image in the forum if you own the copyright: if you took the photo, or drew the image or cartoon. The same goes for text: you may not copy text from another source and paste it here - a link to the original source will do. If you want to show people an image that you do not own, but have found elsewhere on the net, please link to it. People can follow the link, then come back to the forum to comment on it. Of course we fully encourage you to keep posting your own great photos here. When I wrote to moderators this week about the issue, a few questions came up, which I'll answer here for the benefit of all of us: Quote:
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Many thanks for your cooperation with this matter, it's all about making sure the NfS forum is around for a long time to come! Last edited by Ben; 10th November 2007 at 01:29 PM. |
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#2 |
Solo chapurreo el español
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somehwere nice!
Posts: 990
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[quote=Ben;36514
Unfortunately there are photographers, editors and agents out there that are very aggressive about protecting copyright and will sue anyone they can find using their text or pictures. [/quote] Yes, I agree with the "agressive" bit ![]() |
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#3 | |
Mega Forero
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oberursel, Germany
Posts: 260
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German copyright law has a thing called "Recht am eigenen Bild" - ie. your rights to your own image. This means that even if you photograph a person and own the photograph, you cannot publish it as you please. You need the permission of the person on the photograph. Exceptions are when they are not the main subject (ie. person against a landscape backdrop), a historical photograph (they just happened to be on the Berlin Wall on the day if fell) or if they are part of a group (eg. you and your friends are photographed with a celeb.) I don't think using such an image as an avatar would fall under these exceptions (although I'm no lawyer...) Of course, different countries have different laws and there is even an EU-copyright law/directive now (which is based in part on the German one). NFS has the additional problem of not really being attached to one particular country, so which national law would apply? Spain? because Ben and Marina live there USA? because that's the administrative proxy address of the Domain UK? because that's (presumably still) the real address behind the proxy Netherlands? because that's where the domain registrar is according to WHOIS Germany? because the Dutch registrar is using a German IP-address according to WHOIS EU? because 4 of the 5 fall in that area Other? such as the country of the poster concerned OK, maybe that list is a bit OTT, but I wanted to point out that just because you took a photo doesn't mean that you can use it! Very important disclaimer: This post is my own personal opinion and based on personal experience. It is not intended to be legal advice. |
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#4 |
Tio Pepe
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: La Romana, España
Posts: 320
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Possibly some useful information here, American, of course:
http://mason.gmu.edu/~montecin/copyright-internet.htm More links to internet copyright laws than you can wave a mouse at: http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue5/copyright/ |
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#5 |
Hero Forero
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,421
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Thanks for the comments. It is such a tricky issue that the easiest thing is just to say 'no copyright images'. Which is a shame, images do liven up a forum. That's why I hope people will continue to post their own photos from Spain and beyond.
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#6 |
Hero Forero
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Posts: 4,915
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Now I'm just gonna have to go to Spain.
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#7 |
Jedi Forero
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,848
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Or beyond!!
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#8 |
Hero Forero
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Posts: 4,915
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#9 |
Mega Forero
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oberursel, Germany
Posts: 260
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On the very day we talk about the subject, look what came up on BBC News!
The big question in this case is, if you take pictures at a concert and thus own the copyright to the picture, can you publish it on the web? It all reminds me about my "music in podcasts" thread. |
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#10 |
Mega Forero
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oberursel, Germany
Posts: 260
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Something else I forgot to mention... removing images doesn't, of course, immediately remove them from every cache or archive.
eg. if you search for "eldeano" in Google picture search, then you still get the TC picture on #3, even though it's no longer live The site archive.org stores snapshots of sites for years! Here is how the forum used to look... |
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#11 | |
Hero Forero
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Posts: 4,915
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#12 |
Errant in Forolandia
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kobol
Posts: 1,043
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As far as I am aware, in various countries there are precedents and exemptions to various parts of copyright law.
For example, in the USA and UK, NFS wouldn't be responsible for the copyright infringement by users on its public forum. I don't even believe NFS has a duty to search for such infringements, but merely remove them at owners request. This thread alone shows intent by NFS to prevent copyright violations and an active willingness to seek them out. In the USA and UK, I could happily post a McDonalds logo here whilst voicing my dislike of the company. Use of trademarks when critising a company is considered legal as proven in ___-sucks.com cases. Preventing acts of copyright infringement on the forum is something you should definitely commit to, especially now you are incorporating NFS. But I think you should ask your lawyer again if you are liable for infringement by users of your service, rather than by yourself. Having your business dissolved if you didn't clear an infringement fast enough doesn't make sense - your websites host would have to be closed down too. "Landing NFS in trouble" is also unlikely, you'd be sent a rather unfriendly Cease and Desist notice at the very worst I'd expect. Just my opinion(s). |
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#13 |
Forerito sonriente
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Sunny North
Posts: 387
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Like so many issues of this kind it is possible to take these examples "to the far end of a f--t" (quaint English expression), while common sense flies out the window.
The British have always disadvantage themselves by over-interpreting laws & coming down hard on perceived violations that are an affront to common sense. I think Decree is correct in his interpretation. It is the violator, not the medium that is used, who carries responsibility. Lawyers grow fat on giving 'advice' about possible 'risks' (often untested by precedent) to their clients. Take for example the paranoia that people commonly hold regarding the UK data protection act. (e.g. an infamous double murder case highlighted a perceived risk of one police force sharing data with another - this turned out to be an incorrect fear of worrying about violating the DP act.) |
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#14 | ||
Mega Forero
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oberursel, Germany
Posts: 260
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For these two examples, German courts have conflicting decisions forums. Sometimes they decide that you have to "regularly" check what is being posted and take the necessary action, others say that you must react within a specified time if someone complains about a post (eg. because it is insulting or infringes on copyright). [LG Hamburg Az. 308 O 245/07 24.08.2007 & OLG Koblenz Az.: 2 U 862/06 12.07.2007] In the case of logos it's probably a case of where you get it from - did you take it from the company's homepage? Did you go out and take the photo yourself? Do you need permission to use it on not? In Germany, for example, you are not allowed to use a company name in your blog unless it instantly recognisable that it is not a publication of the company itself. At the same time you are not allowed to be defamatory. So companyname-blog.de is not allowed, companyname-unsatisfied-customers.de could be allowed, and companyname-sucks.de would not be allowed. [OLG Hamburg AZ 3 W 110/07 31.05.2007 & LG Düsseldorf Az.: 2a O 245/01 30.01.2002] Quote:
@Ben: I would suggest writing down some examples of what could happen in the forum and asking your lawyer how you should react to them and what could happen (a) when you react (b) if you are too slow (c) you don't do anything. If he/she's up on internet topics then they should also be able to tell you which national law applies. Unfortunately, lawyers sometimes disagree with each other, so even if yours tells you that eg. Spanish laws apply, a lawyer in the U.S. may take a different view. |
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#15 |
Forerito sonriente
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Sunny North
Posts: 387
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Keeps the lawyers fat & ensures that however daft is the perceived risk you will always find a lawyer who will 'agree' with you
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#16 |
Hero Forero
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pego, Spain
Posts: 3,363
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By coincidence today a Gooogle ad on this page had one for a site offering low cost, royalty free photos. Look here if it is not available now, although there are probably many more available. Maybe that is the answer for those who need an illustration for their Blog etc. without losing sleep over who is about to descend on them with a lawyer in tow.
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#17 |
virtual idiot
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: palmers green
Posts: 2,400
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My LOST avatars have been deemed unsuitable even though they are publicly posted by the TV company that owns the rights to them, for use by the public.
Of course there is a need for copyright, as omeyas has indicated. Images from a sydicated TV series are in my opinion a whole different kettle of fish. The trouble is how are we supposed to know what is and isn't legal? I think common sense should guide us on this matter. Look at any TV site forum and something like 95% of the people have an avatar that represents a character from the show. Last edited by tad; 8th November 2007 at 03:07 PM. |
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#18 | |
Mega Forero
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oberursel, Germany
Posts: 260
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A couple of years ago there was a case here where a student used pictures from such a site (based in the UK I believe) on his homepage, only be sent a lawyer's letter because a German agency held the exclusive usage rights to the photos within Germany (and therefore on German websites). I think they had obtained them directly from the photographer. In the end there was so much PR, that the last I heard was that he didn't have to pay the 6000EUR fine (the court agreed with this but left room for an appeal), but he still had the hassle of it all. (German readers, see here). |
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#19 | |
Errant in Forolandia
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kobol
Posts: 1,043
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As with the avatars, NFS is probably the strictest forum on the web, and probably the only one that removes peoples avatars. |
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#20 |
Galicia, Celtic land
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 225
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It is a shame that legal matters have to spoil our fun, but at the same time we understand it.
It seems that some lawyers like to aim for the easier targets. There are plenty of copyright infringements happing all over the web. Other forums and Youtube are just tow examples. And as omeyas has said about another web site using ones own photos. We now have added a logo to ours so that others cannot use them. There are plenty of free avatars on the web, hopefully of TC…can we use the full name or is that an infringement? ![]() |
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