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View Poll Results: En cual tu crees?
Evolucion 19 73.08%
Creacion 7 26.92%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14th July 2008, 07:33 PM   #81
Edith
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The Catholic Church isn't tied to Biblical Literalism but is utterly bound by the dogmas of a revealed faith.
I fail to see any fundamental difference - it's all about questioning or not questioning deeply entrenched notions believed to be of divine origin by its adherents. The great majority of practicing Dutch Catholics prefer the 'light' version of Catholicism and they no longer pay much attention to what the Vatican says. I myself am an atheist and so the issue of divine authority has no relevance for me. But anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight - let's just agree to disagree on this topic!

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Old 14th July 2008, 09:00 PM   #82
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Hi, Edith,

One consequence of the difference is, that it permits the Catholic Church to engage productively with evolutionary theory in a way that fundamentalists cannot, but yes, there is nothing I have written here which would expose the fundamental difference between the two loci of Divine authority. I also agree that this is an apt point to end this branch of the thread which I have heartily enjoyed and learned from.

Some day I will have this discussion in Spanish...

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Old 14th July 2008, 09:28 PM   #83
Edith
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Some day I will have this discussion in Spanish...
¡Ojalá que sí! Which is a linguistic leftover from Spain's conquest by the Muslims...
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Old 14th July 2008, 09:29 PM   #84
Juanjo
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[quote=Seán;56346]

Let's assume, that very soon we have a refined evolutionary theory and there is sufficient scientific evidence to support it beyond reasonable doubt. That in itself does not diminish one iota the act of faith that God is Creator.

But....... Creator of what? (note: faith required)


The Catholic view concerning the Truth of Scripture is that it was written within the community of faith

(Note: faith required)

under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,

(Note: faith required)

and that the authority it rests on is not itself, but the infallibility of the Church.

(Note: faith required)


To some that might seem a trivial distinction, but in reality it is crucial. A self-affirming book is fairly nonsensical, but the various demonstrations for the divine foundation of the Church are perfectly rational and logical, and rest on rational demonstrations for the existence of God which go all the way back to Aristotle.

Aristotle did not have the advantage of modern scientific knowledge 2330 years ago. Further, his "primal substance/primal cause" argument is disputed.


As for, "Faith, my son," that wasn't faith he was recommending to you, but fideism. That happily brings us to Moorish culture in Spain.

My specialist subject for the last mumbledy-mumble years!

St Thomas Aquinas knocked fideism on the head in his thirteenth century refutation of the separation of faith and reason propounded by the Andalusian Muslim philosopher Averroes.

Of course, Aquinas was repeating much of what the Andalusian Jewish philosopher. Maimonides, had stated about 100 years earlier and opposed by later philosophers such as Wittgenstein. As Wikipedia says :Aquinas believed that truth is known through reason (natural revelation) and faith (supernatural revelation). Supernatural revelation is revealed through the prophets, Holy Scripture, and the Magisterium, the sum of which is called "Tradition".

Supernatural revelation (faith) arrives through the prophets (i.e. recorded in the Bible- but only those accepted for the Canon, ignoring others), Holy Scripture itself (faith required to believe the truth of the Bible) and the Magisterium (the teaching of the Catholic Church based on the Bible and traditional teachings approved by the hierarchy of the Church itself- cynics might say influenced by self-preservation and desire for expansion). Yet the Church rejects modern Liberation Theology for mainly political reasons.

As this thread is starting to unravel into multiple thought-strands, perhaps it is time to close it. My belief is that the present development of human thinking is not yet capable of coping with the complexity of the origin of life (or even the ineffability of God )

Cheers

Juanjo
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Old 14th July 2008, 10:55 PM   #85
Edith
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The speaker is an anthropologist.
Thanks for this great video, I just finished watching it. This university lecture has certainly re-kindled my interest in evolution!

BTW, what is the name of this galaxy which seems to give us the finger?
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