Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum Learn REAL Spanish now!  

Go Back   Notes from Spain and Spanish Forum > The Rastro > Life, the Universe, and Everything Else

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 26th February 2009, 12:33 AM   #21
stella
Forero Senior
 
stella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Durham
Posts: 61
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
So you are saying you use people's DNA/genes to identify who they are?

If so, then it follows that you'd consider two people with the same DNA/genes (such as identical twins) to be the same person.
No, it's not the DNA/genes, it's the whole holistic idea of everything that pertains to an object (whether living or not) becoming part of it. A 50 year old may not have the same personality/looks/friends/lifestyle or even physical atoms as he was as an adolescent, but of course, he's still John Smith. He was born to parents, given a name and thus an identity, and during the course of his life he was a single entity. His heredity can never change, aspects of his physical appearance can't change (well - aside from corrective surgery, but even then it's rare to change every aspect at once), and many would argue that his personality can't change.

If the axe hadn't had replacement handles or heads, how could it be the same axe anyway? How can an axe with a broken handle be the same axe so long as the handle isn't replaced. It wasn't always broken. It will also have likely changed colour and shape during years of wear. From the instant an axe is used to chop a piece of wood, it surely changes - the iron head has cut wood, the handle now contains particles of the woodcutter's skin/grease. Therefore to avoid the idea that the axe is never the same axe from one moment to the next, it has to always remain the same axe.
stella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:48 AM   #22
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
No, I don't, but the police do.
The police cannot use DNA on its own to distinguish between identical twins.

The police also use fingerprints to identify people. If I have my fingerprints surgically changed so the police can no longer identify me that way, does that mean my identity has changed? Am I no longer the same person?

I think there is more to who I am than just my fingerprints, and I think there is more to who I am than just my DNA. The fact that my DNA is unique to me doesn't make it my defining feature. Indeed you can change my DNA, which may in turn change the way I appear, think or behave, but it'll still be me.

Last edited by Legazpi; 26th February 2009 at 12:56 AM.
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:53 AM   #23
richardksa
Jedi Forero
 
richardksa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,848
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
I think it depends if you consider it to be the same axe or you see it as a different axe.
So, the axe is in the eye of the beholder. But I would say if there is not one single atom of the original axe in the one you see, then it is not the same axe. It is not even the same axe if you change just one part. This is axiomatic.
richardksa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:57 AM   #24
stella
Forero Senior
 
stella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Durham
Posts: 61
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by richardksa View Post
not even the same axe ... axiomatic.
Nice.
stella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:58 AM   #25
Pippa
GigaForero
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Lorenzo del Escorial
Posts: 1,336
Default

This is the problem of taking the things out of context. I think I mentioned that development and life infuences the making of a person in addition to the DNA.
If I referred to the DNA is because that is unchangeable. Life is changeable and also is the development of a person. Of course identical twins are not the same person because each person is unique.
Pippa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 01:07 AM   #26
Pippa
GigaForero
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Lorenzo del Escorial
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by richardksa View Post
So, the axe is in the eye of the beholder. But I would say if there is not one single atom of the original axe in the one you see, then it is not the same axe. It is not even the same axe if you change just one part. This is axiomatic.
If you inherit your father's watch, and then change the wrist-strap, do you consider it to be still your father's watch? It is not the same watch that your father had, but it is still your father's watch, is it not? (Of course, it is yours now...)
Pippa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 04:04 AM   #27
ValenciaSon
Hero Forero
 
ValenciaSon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Posts: 4,915
Default

If you have a new axe to grind, it ain't the old one.
ValenciaSon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 09:23 AM   #28
gastephen
..es que yo no estoy loco
 
gastephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gales
Posts: 1,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
Does it depend on what the word "same" means?
That depends on what the word "means" means.
gastephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 10:46 AM   #29
Andy.G.
Super Forero
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Inglaterra
Posts: 156
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
If you inherit your father's watch, and then change the wrist-strap, do you consider it to be still your father's watch? It is not the same watch that your father had, but it is still your father's watch, is it not? (Of course, it is yours now...)

The watch is still the same watch , it serves its purpose of telling the time and it does not matter if you change the wrist strap for a chain , as this only changes the way you wear the watch , be it a wrist watch or a pocket watch the strap is there as an aid for you to use the watch in a better way.The watch still functions or serves its purpose as it did before.

I think it is the same with the axe as the axe is used as a tool to cut wood etc and the handle is there to make the work easier , but the axe will still serve its purpose with or without the handle allthough it may be harder work to use.

Therfore change the strap of the watch it is the same watch , but change the watch itself and it is a different watch.
Replace the handle of the axe it is the same axe, but replace the axe head it becomes a different axe.
Andy.G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 10:59 AM   #30
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
This is the problem of taking the things out of context. I think I mentioned that development and life infuences the making of a person in addition to the DNA.
If I referred to the DNA is because that is unchangeable. Life is changeable and also is the development of a person. Of course identical twins are not the same person because each person is unique.
you wrote:

Quote:
...
With regards to people I am afraid we are the same person as we were when we were born, as the DNA, the genes are the same and those do not change. Development and life changes and can influence the making of the person, but the person is the same
...
I interpret this as saying that DNA/genes determine whether a person remains the same or not, while "life changes" do not.

I think that both DNA/genes and "life changes" (nature and nuture) are important influences on who we are, but neither can ultimately be used as a yardstick to determine whether we remain the same or not. As mentioned, this of course depends on whether I'm using the same definition for "same" as you.
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 11:17 AM   #31
Pippa
GigaForero
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Lorenzo del Escorial
Posts: 1,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
you wrote:



I interpret this as saying that DNA/genes determine whether a person remains the same or not, while "life changes" do not.

I think that both DNA/genes and "life changes" (nature and nuture) are important influences on who we are, but neither can ultimately be used as a yardstick to determine whether we remain the same or not. As mentioned, this of course depends on whether I'm using the same definition for "same" as you.
I think we will have to agree to disagree.
I am probably not expressing myself very well as English is not my first language. Maybe my understanding of same is not the same as yours. . Maybe we should find out what a philosopher understand by "same" so we can use the same definition.
Pippa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:01 PM   #32
Juanjo
Lorquista
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South of England
Posts: 1,137
Default

Here's another little mind-blowing mental exercise that might help you define what you mean by "same".

You have 100 euros in your pocket comprising notes of 1 x50, 1x20, 3x10. Your partner asks to to change his/her 20 euro note for something smaller: you exchange the 20 for 2 x 10.

So you still have in your pocket 100 euros (1x50, 2x20, 1x10). Is that the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros" you had before? If not, what is it?

Now a trusted friend comes along and asks to borrow 50 euros giving you a written IOU (in which you have total confidence that it will be redeemed at full value) in exchange. Do you still have the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros" (2x20, 1x10 + 50 euro IOU 100% certain to be repaid) If not, what is it?

[This is a good test of Plato's "essence" theory. BTW, there probably is no correct answer- just different semantic interpretation of "same".]
Juanjo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:16 PM   #33
ValenciaSon
Hero Forero
 
ValenciaSon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Posts: 4,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legazpi View Post
you wrote:



I interpret this as saying that DNA/genes determine whether a person remains the same or not, while "life changes" do not.

I think that both DNA/genes and "life changes" (nature and nuture) are important influences on who we are, but neither can ultimately be used as a yardstick to determine whether we remain the same or not. As mentioned, this of course depends on whether I'm using the same definition for "same" as you.
DNA is only part of what defines the human, it is the experiences which the human undergoes, which shapes them to be the individual that they are. Consider for example how external influences affect the patterns in which neuronal growth takes place, so even twins with identical genomes can be not the same.
ValenciaSon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:16 PM   #34
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
I think we will have to agree to disagree.
I am probably not expressing myself very well as English is not my first language. Maybe my understanding of same is not the same as yours. . Maybe we should find out what a philosopher understand by "same" so we can use the same definition.
I expect you'll find that there isn't a fixed definition for "same" that is globally accepted. It depends on context, and is somewhat subjective. As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, my requirements for an inanimate object to be considered the "same" as before are different to my requirements for a person to be considered the "same" as before.

If we suddenly started talking about cartoon characters for example, I expect I'd come up with another set of requirements for Bugs Bunny to be considered the "same" character between frames (and it wouldn't involve his DNA being the same because he doesn't have any).
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:19 PM   #35
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juanjo View Post
Here's another little mind-blowing mental exercise that might help you define what you mean by "same".

You have 100 euros in your pocket comprising notes of 1 x50, 1x20, 3x10. Your partner asks to to change his/her 20 euro note for something smaller: you exchange the 20 for 2 x 10.

So you still have in your pocket 100 euros (1x50, 2x20, 1x10). Is that the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros" you had before? If not, what is it?

Now a trusted friend comes along and asks to borrow 50 euros giving you a written IOU (in which you have total confidence that it will be redeemed at full value) in exchange. Do you still have the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros" (2x20, 1x10 + 50 euro IOU 100% certain to be repaid) If not, what is it?

[This is a good test of Plato's "essence" theory. BTW, there probably is no correct answer- just different semantic interpretation of "same".]
Sounds like fractional reserve banking to me - and look at the mess that has got us into!
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:21 PM   #36
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValenciaSon View Post
DNA is only part of what defines the human, it is the experiences which the human undergoes, which shapes them to be the individual that they are. Consider for example how external influences affect the patterns in which neuronal growth takes place, so even twins with identical genomes can be not the same.
Agreed
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 04:13 PM   #37
greytop
Hero Forero
 
greytop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pego, Spain
Posts: 3,363
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juanjo View Post
Here's another little mind-blowing mental exercise that might help you define what you mean by "same".

You have tokens to the value of 100 euros in your pocket comprising notes of 1 x50, 1x20, 3x10. Your partner asks to to change his/her 20 euro note for something smaller: you exchange the 20 for 2 x 10.

So you still have in your pocket tokens to the value of 100 euros (1x50, 2x20, 1x10). Is that the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros" you had before? If not, what is it?

Now a trusted friend comes along and asks to borrow 50 euros giving you a written IOU (in which you have total confidence that it will be redeemed at full value) in exchange. Do you still have the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros worth of tokens" (2x20, 1x10 + 50 euro IOU 100% certain to be repaid) If not, what is it?

[This is a good test of Plato's "essence" theory. BTW, there probably is no correct answer- just different semantic interpretation of "same".]
No they are different tokens but still worth "the same" 100 euros.
The problem exists because it is loosely stated in the first place IMHO. When posing questions like this, or writing a document (think about legal jargon used to overcome this) you have to anticipate such problems and change the problem's wording to make it 100% clear.
Anyway I notice Ben has been very quiet since getting us all going
greytop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 04:58 PM   #38
richardksa
Jedi Forero
 
richardksa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,848
Default

It is the same amount of Euros, but NOT the same pieces of paper. Is it worth the same? Yes. Is it the same money? No.
So, going back to the original question; if you exchanged the axe for another exactly the same, is it the same axe? Of course not.
richardksa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 04:58 PM   #39
Juanjo
Lorquista
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South of England
Posts: 1,137
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greytop View Post
No they are different tokens but still worth "the same" 100 euros.

[Greytop's formulation of the question is better!]

I interpret his response to be mean the Platonic "essence" of "100 euros value" remains identical, even though the components of that value changes.

If so, equally does that not mean that the "essences" of the axe, broomstick and football team are also constant, even though their components change?
Juanjo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 05:09 PM   #40
Legazpi
Mega Forero
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Madrid (Arganzuela)
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juanjo View Post
Here's another little mind-blowing mental exercise that might help you define what you mean by "same".

You have 100 euros in your pocket comprising notes of 1 x50, 1x20, 3x10. Your partner asks to to change his/her 20 euro note for something smaller: you exchange the 20 for 2 x 10.

So you still have in your pocket 100 euros (1x50, 2x20, 1x10). Is that the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros" you had before? If not, what is it?

Now a trusted friend comes along and asks to borrow 50 euros giving you a written IOU (in which you have total confidence that it will be redeemed at full value) in exchange. Do you still have the original (i.e. "same") "100 euros" (2x20, 1x10 + 50 euro IOU 100% certain to be repaid) If not, what is it?

[This is a good test of Plato's "essence" theory. BTW, there probably is no correct answer- just different semantic interpretation of "same".]
To elaborate on my previous comment - I think the IOU is considered by economists to be broad money (M4), while the money you gave to your friend is narrow money (M0). So I don't think they are considered to be the same kind of money, although they are both forms of money that can be exchanged (to an extent). By accepting the IOU and considering it to be a form of money, you have increased the amount of money in circulation by 50 euros: where before only you had 50€, now both you and your friend think you have €50 each (even though your friend is obliged to pay you back 50€ sometime in the future). Furthermore, I believe that by increasing the money supply you have devalued money (caused inflation) so it is fair that you charge your friend some interest on those €50.

(BTW I don't understand this stuff very well so I'd welcome any comments from someone who does)
Legazpi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Learn REAL Spanish now!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.