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Old 22nd November 2006, 07:51 PM   #21
Steve W
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I have definitely heard the casual use of labels such as Paki here, mainly referring to the late night shops that are often run by people from Asia. Very much like being in the UK 25+ years ago.

The most shocking racism that I have witnessed here was a Falla sculpture in Valencia of a obscenely caricatured black African immigrant, supposedly destroying Europe by his very presence. This was in one of the smaller, local Fallas near to where I was staying.

I do think that Spain is going through the process of immigration that a lot of other countries such as the UK have passed through many years ago. There are not many second generation immigrant communities here yet. Maybe just the Latin American ones, in some cases.

I find it very odd to see skinheads walking around my neighbourhood, dressed exactly like their English equivalents of the 70s and 80s.

Last edited by Steve W; 22nd November 2006 at 07:51 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd November 2006, 09:47 PM   #22
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Wow, that's horrible. Perhaps he might be a bit surprised if he had a DNA test- he might find a few drops in his gene pool to be unsettling.

In the UK some time ago there was a TV programme about a few different people looking into the details of their genetics. One of the expert gene-tracing scientists, while telling an anglo-looking Estadounidense male he had numerous African-origin genes, said that a figure of around 75%(I don't remember exactly) of white Americans are also of part-African descent, more-so in the southern states.
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Old 22nd November 2006, 09:58 PM   #23
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Racism is no more or no less silly that the various other ism's that humans develop and perpetrate by labelling those who are different from them and then acting upon those with that label, be it to discriminate, declare war on or convert.

Tribalism is alive and well. It is engrained on our psyche, even in those of us who do our very best to try and control it with logic and sense, even in us it dictates the vast majority of our decisions whether we notice or not.
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Old 23rd November 2006, 03:02 PM   #24
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Tribalism is alive and well. It is engrained on our psyche, even in those of us who do our very best to try and control it with logic and sense, even in us it dictates the vast majority of our decisions whether we notice or not.
Unfortunately, logic and sense go out the door when it comes to dealing with racism.

Racism shows its ugly head because of a fear of the unknown culture, norms, and living habits of other people groups. Educated people learn to accept the differences (so long as they aren't committing crimes against humanity), while uneducated people feel threatened by them.
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Old 23rd November 2006, 06:18 PM   #25
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Not that I condone racism but I think that with societies that were otherwise homogenous, there is a learning curve to co-existing with other cultures and Spain has been fairly homogenous up until recently. Look at the US. How long have we've been this "boiling pot" of diversity and yet we still struggle with racism.
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Old 23rd November 2006, 08:07 PM   #26
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Not that I condone racism but I think that with societies that were otherwise homogenous, there is a learning curve to co-existing with other cultures and Spain has been fairly homogenous up until recently. Look at the US. How long have we've been this "boiling pot" of diversity and yet we still struggle with racism.
This is true. Have we progressed? It's pretty obvious that the Americian racism of the new century is toward anyone of Arabic origin.
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Old 23rd November 2006, 10:20 PM   #27
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Where isnt it? I was born in ¨multi-cultural ¨London and lived thru years of intense racial disharmony - partly why I left in the end. Bit of myth the cosmopolitan nature - I always felt. Soon found it again anyway - on the streets of Toledo living amongst the Portuguese gitanos who suffered continuously at the hands of the green wax jacket brigade. Its everywhere, look around you and you will see it, hear it smell it. Spain just doesnt tuck it out of sight so well as other places. Not sure it thats a good or bad thing.
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Old 24th November 2006, 12:37 AM   #28
Andy Woolley
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Racism is always a bad thing.

No debate, no argument - hating people because of what they were born is wrong.

So if Spain is up front about it that is the sign of an immature society (or one which still has ultra right leanings within some of its population) which doesn't realise that forcing it underground avoids making it seem legitmate to coming generations. Keeping it in the open allows people to think - "well maybe I am right because s/he thinks like that too".
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Old 24th November 2006, 05:14 AM   #29
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Racism is always a bad thing.

No debate, no argument - hating people because of what they were born is wrong.

So if Spain is up front about it that is the sign of an immature society (or one which still has ultra right leanings within some of its population) which doesn't realise that forcing it underground avoids making it seem legitmate to coming generations. Keeping it in the open allows people to think - "well maybe I am right because s/he thinks like that too".

I guess I'd agree with that. In the UK its a huge taboo to be thought of as racist even to the racists - this may create an annoying level of paranoia in what you can say in public and of political correctness - but at least it keeps it out of day-to-day life and it's not something that's always in your face. But, I guess the only person who could give a valid opinion on whether hiding racism in society is better than it being out in the open - is someone of a minority group who has lived, for example, in both the UK and Spain.
Didn't Ben once interview an Asian businessman from the UK who moved to Madrid? I don't remember if they were close or not...
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Old 25th November 2006, 05:47 PM   #30
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You won"t be able to undestand Spaniard mind, about races, you have to born in the culture, you may learn the languange but that's something you gets in your mother's milk.
First you have to understand the arabs conquered and abused Spain for 800 years, from raping women killing and stealing children to convert them to the islam to opened persecution against Christians,those thing you can't forget for generations. Spain was saved by GOD grace thru the queen and King of Castilla, they unified Spain and kicked the muslim out of the country. ( I want to make clear in the agenda of today muslim extremist is to take Spain back) also some of the mechanism to make the people of Spain unified was to look at other races as inferior. So when an asian move into our neighborhood, we called "el chino" (the chinese) even if that person is from Japan. is a way of simplify things. Yes some of those coments are not political correct. But in Spain who cares?, if you are dark completion you are even handsome and pretty to them, they may call you "la mora" o "el Moro" but if you are black that's another story. They even paint the devil black in old Spanish paintings They will call you "el negro" "el africano", "el chocolaton" but they have no problems socializing with a black person, even getting married with one. THis is part of their culture. You wont be able to get that away from them for many generations to come. And let's face it the extremist muslims are making this behaviour to stay. So you can't blame Spaniards for this. But be aware if you go to Spain they may treat you like that even is you are blond and blue eye, they may call you "el inglesito" "el gato" (if you have blue eyes) o el gringo o el americano. If you are white form Spanish stock but from the Caribbean or latin american they may call you by your contry of origen, " el cubano" el dominicano" (from Dominican Republic) or " el indio" to resume all the people from their former colonies. but I think the Spaniard culture is more benign treating different races than American White. I never heard of a KKK from Spain, or any killing based only in race or different color in Spain, (with an exception in the past of the Reconquista war, when they killed a lot of muslims, and after that when they made the hundred of jewish people to convert to Catholism). But the topic is open for discussion. Here from Pennsylvania. Paco
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Old 25th November 2006, 09:17 PM   #31
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I've learned that the most prosperous years in the history of Spain were those when the jews, the muslims and the christians co-existed in Spain as this period of tolerance helped the Spanish economy to flourish and brought spanish culture to higher levels as each group contributed assets to Spain, still enjoyed to this day, such as architecture, cooking, music and others. It was the expulsion of the jews and muslims which came about from the intolerance that the Spanish royalty decided to finally manifest.

I see this unfortunate turn of events in Spain's history to be the result of prejudice and not some effort to rid a malevolent presence which existed in Spain for 800 years.
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Old 25th November 2006, 09:56 PM   #32
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Cool Well valencia

You may have your opinion of what is prosperous. When they have they colonies in America, Spain was the richest of the countries in the whole world,. Silver and gold was running like water. Mainly silver from the Potosi mines in Mexico and other things sugar, fruits from the america, animal a lot of exotic animals, slaves, new crops like potato from South America, Sugar Cane from India, and Cattle-meat from the Pampas in Argentina started feeding the new Empire also brought a lot of money to the empire, people started eating better and more, trade was unbelievable and the empire was also related to other kingdoms by blood or realtionship and influence, even people start comming to Spain, Art fluorished commerce fluorished, even archicture but I didnt like this period, the standard of living improved 100%. Now if you want to see the architectual richness of Spain, maybe you have to go to the period prior kicking the muslins out. The riches in those buildings are still visible. The muslims had absolute power, cheap labor and a lot of money so these bulding where absolute gorgeous or (I should say are). La alambra to mention just one. But if you really look into it they have a lot of them still in great shape around Spain. They really didnt kicked out the Jewish and the muslim,( some of them left of course) like Hitler did to the jewish people in Germany, Many jewish among them my greatgrandfather,changed their religion by name only and continued practising underground, also the muslim did the same thing. They even "changed" their last name, ex. from Peretz (jewish) to Perez (cristiano) and we all know which last name is jewish background and which is not. but a lot of them didn't leave the country o yes or some were kill by La inquicicion, and the purity of race was mandatory if you wanted to have a significan position or to marry somebody, "Cristiano viejo" was a term used like a sign of good blood, I dont blame them because the withcraft and devil worshiping was very communand other things (I dont want to go in detail)were commun practice, La Inquisicion was brutal I agreed, was their Gestapo and kept the country from the Reformation big mistake, A country with only Catholic values goes no where. But "neverthless"Spain was a very powerfull empiere for many centuries. La Armada was probably the must powerful army in the world. And is stupid to think it was only one race under their flag. From blacks, indians, white, jewish, muslims, french and italians, portuguese and germans even the royalty in Spain have a lot of german blood on them even english blood and other races mediterraneans like greeks and Italian were living under one flag, and one shield and one religion the catholic religion and the Lion of Castilla . But racially they were very multicultural if you will. But this concept was not available at that time. I do not agree with your statement "Spain started loosing their power when they kicked the muslins and the Jewish people out", when countries like France (los francecitos cabrones) started feeding ideas MONEY a lot of Money and weapons to the english and Spanish colonies to make them "FREE" and make both empiere weak, they suceed with Spain and also with England (they lost USA) ( and this bit them in the ass later on, when MarieAntoniette and Luis's heads were biting a basket after the guillotine cut their head off and the best of the french race (and looks) was lost in the stupid french revolution, they are still paying for it, the best of the french race was wasted). Them they created division in the empire and of course the Revolutions that we all know, creating small countries all around the world because el patriotismo now we are a poor fractioned race without hope and the fragmentation of the empire and the declination of it, we are still paying for it. But Spain was a very powerful empiere for centuries after they "kicked out the muslims and the Jewish people" like you suggested . I want to remind you again I am a decendent of one of those jewish guy one that never left, one, yes lied to la Inquisicion and married a jewish woman and had a family under "El leon de Castilla"and he was not alone believe me he was not alone. Enjoy. Paco

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Old 25th November 2006, 10:22 PM   #33
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Mainly silver from the Potosi mines in Mexico

Your grasp of history is very poor, and I won´t bother going into all the detail, but unless they´ve moved it, I was always under the impression that Potosi was in Bolivia. You´re miles out, just like some of your other facts.

Potosí is a city, the capital of the department of Potosí in Bolivia. It is at an altitude of 3967 meters and has about 115,000 inhabitants. It is claimed to be the highest city in the world. It lies beneath the Cerro Rico ("Rich mountain"), a mountain of silver ore, which has always dominated the city
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Old 25th November 2006, 11:46 PM   #34
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Old 26th November 2006, 02:15 AM   #35
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Mmmm...ok
I would say in my personal opinion that monkey chants constitute overt racism. Let's see, no-one is suggesting that racism is unique to Spain, that is obviously not the case. However I would suggest that it IS prevalent in Spain and that this problem is currently not very well recognized. Racism is not going to disappear until there is a recognition of its existence. And calling someone (for example) of Japanese heritage or nationality a chino IS offensive. I know bc as a kid my best friends were Vietnamese and they were genuinely offended when people called them Chinese. Its not just simplification, that's what stereotypes are born of. Also, its not just being politically-correct its about being polite and respecting other human beings, there's no need to be offensive when it is so easily avoided. As I said in my original post, I made my comments because i personally witnessed various examples of blatant racism and it shocked me because I had not seen it in Canada where we have a far greater variety of races and ethnicities. Now given this there DOES exist racism is Canada, but it is far less prevalent and accepted. This I attribute to Canada's long history of immigration, something fairly recent in Spain. Also these comments about Muslims for example and Spain's history hold little water, I heard comments about muslims from the mother of one of my old students, however i also heard far more times derogatory comments about oriental asians, who as far as I know...have no history within Spain...Perhaps part of the problem lies in Spain's sudden altering of values that has occured since the end of the dictatorship, ie introduction of gay-marriage etc. And the fact is that a lot of people simply have not really changed their beliefs, but now that Spain is a "progressive" country admitting to a racism problem might be seen as a step back so its just denied or ignored.
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Old 26th November 2006, 02:33 PM   #36
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Laguiri,

I would agree with about 90% of what you said, except that your example of someone calling a Japanese person 'Chinese' is not really racism. It's insensitivity, perhaps even ignorance, but I don't see how that crosses the line into feelings of supremacy concerning one's race. I appreciate your point, but I just felt that it was important to interject into this very controversial issue.

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Mmmm...ok
I would say in my personal opinion that monkey chants constitute overt racism. Let's see, no-one is suggesting that racism is unique to Spain, that is obviously not the case. However I would suggest that it IS prevalent in Spain and that this problem is currently not very well recognized. Racism is not going to disappear until there is a recognition of its existence. And calling someone (for example) of Japanese heritage or nationality a chino IS offensive. I know bc as a kid my best friends were Vietnamese and they were genuinely offended when people called them Chinese. Its not just simplification, that's what stereotypes are born of. Also, its not just being politically-correct its about being polite and respecting other human beings, there's no need to be offensive when it is so easily avoided. As I said in my original post, I made my comments because i personally witnessed various examples of blatant racism and it shocked me because I had not seen it in Canada where we have a far greater variety of races and ethnicities. Now given this there DOES exist racism is Canada, but it is far less prevalent and accepted. This I attribute to Canada's long history of immigration, something fairly recent in Spain. Also these comments about Muslims for example and Spain's history hold little water, I heard comments about muslims from the mother of one of my old students, however i also heard far more times derogatory comments about oriental asians, who as far as I know...have no history within Spain...Perhaps part of the problem lies in Spain's sudden altering of values that has occured since the end of the dictatorship, ie introduction of gay-marriage etc. And the fact is that a lot of people simply have not really changed their beliefs, but now that Spain is a "progressive" country admitting to a racism problem might be seen as a step back so its just denied or ignored.
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Old 26th November 2006, 05:24 PM   #37
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This discussion looks interesting, but I haven got my reading glasses with me and I haven got the time,l but I will join this discussion after treturning to Holland. in 10 dAYS TIME.
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Old 26th November 2006, 11:41 PM   #38
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Default Wow...

Yes that was a lack of "quality ControL" Potosi is in Bolivia. However My dear Mexico and Peru produced a lot of the silver taken to Spain during the coloniztion.
Yes I am opening myself to attacks, and insults. Mainly those anti-semitics people in this site and in others. God bless Israel now and for ever. Paco
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Old 26th November 2006, 11:48 PM   #39
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Are the french Canadian loving the rest of the country? Not the last time I checked. Yes I know Canada probably one of the most liberal countries that I know. But even there you can find perjudism. Believe me! Paco
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Old 26th November 2006, 11:58 PM   #40
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