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Old 27th November 2006, 12:26 AM   #41
Brian
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What decree said.
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Old 27th November 2006, 02:19 PM   #42
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You may have your opinion of what is prosperous. When they have they colonies in America, Spain was the richest of the countries in the whole world,. Silver and gold was running like water. Mainly silver from the Potosi mines in Mexico and other things sugar, fruits from the america, animal a lot of exotic animals, slaves, new crops like potato from South America, Sugar Cane from India, and Cattle-meat from the Pampas in Argentina started feeding the new Empire also brought a lot of money to the empire, people started eating better and more '
The spoils of war, and the cant of conquest... it beats me why some people still feel the need to justify mass murder and slavery to this very day., just like the Turks who are still in denial about the Armenian genocide.Why do you think the gold was running like water? It was taken by force from the Indians. Hundreds, perhaps even thousands of indigenous nations were defeated or wiped off the map in both Americas after 1492 and in some areas, like Brazil and Paraguay, tribes are still on th verge of becoming extinct. Many have died because they fell victims to European diseases, but many were also killed by the sword.

And where did all those other riches come from? It was produced by Indian and black slaves. Even though thge Indians were officially exempt flom slavery, many were enslaved as prisoners of war. (and whatś in a name anyway)

The hacendados of southern Argentina had to kill off the Indians of the pampas first before their estancias became profitable. businesses. These wars are known as the ' Guerras del Desierto

It goes without saying that the Incas and the Aztecs were cruel too, but this doesn't justify the glorification of European (I' m not only talking about Spain!) colonialism in any way. Even the Pope has shown some remorse. because of what has happened.

Perhaps I will go a little bit more into this subject when I return home, because I like to check some sources first before delving deeper.

I didn't get your story about crypto- Jews in Spain. Are some people actually suggesting that the Jews in Spain practiced some kind of witchcraft? Since I don believe in witchcraft anyway I would say that is a pack of lies emanating from the Inquisition and their ideological cronies. An ugly pack of lies wich cost the Jews dearly because they became the victims of ignorance and prejudice in its vilest form.

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Old 27th November 2006, 02:32 PM   #43
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Edith - I liked reading all your comments. You appear to have a lot of knowledge on the matter. I have read a little about the Jewish population in Spain during the inquisition and I would say that I agree with your thoughts. Never have I heard of crypto-Jews nor the connection with witchcraft. I have read one book about that time period and would recommend it anyone....unfortunately at this hour of the morning I can't remember the name but will get it if anyone is interested.
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Old 27th November 2006, 02:36 PM   #44
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Hey Patty, I'm interested and would greatly appreciate it if you can get a hold of the title and author and post it.

Thanks
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Old 27th November 2006, 03:39 PM   #45
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Edith - I liked reading all your comments. You appear to have a lot of knowledge on the matter. I have read a little about the Jewish population in Spain during the inquisition and I would say that I agree with your thoughts. Never have I heard of crypto-Jews nor the connection with witchcraft. I have read one book about that time period and would recommend it anyone....unfortunately at this hour of the morning I can't remember the name but will get it if anyone is interested.
Hi Patty,

Learning about new books is always interesting! When you remember the name, please let us know!

Crypto-Jews who went into hiding during the Inquisition, for instance by pretending they were Christians and/or by changing their surnames. Some people have held this against them, but of course it was just a way to escape from persecution. Some other ethnic groups have done this too while they were facing similar circumstances. During their persecution by the Mexican government around 1900, the Yaqui Indians of northwestern Mexico reacted in almost eaxctly the same way as the Crypto-Jews did, i.e. by changing their surnames and by assuming a new identity.

During the Middle Ages, Jews were accused of many things, e.g. poisoning wells or adding the blood of Christian children to their matzos (even though Jewish religion strictly forbids the eating any kind of blood product, even to the point of rejecting eggs which may contain a tiny little spec of blood). Like Muslims, observant Jews will not eat anything which is not in accordance with their dietary laws., and ritual cannibalism is unheard of in both religions. But medieval people were very superstitious, and prone to believe just almost any kind of rumor they heard about the Jews.


According to some historians, some of the old Hispano families in New Mexico are descended from Crypto-Jews and some may actually still be practising some Jewish customs. Kathleen Alcalá is a Mexican-American writer of Jewish and Opata Indian descent wo writes about these issues in her semi-autobiographical novels. She says both her Jewish and her Native American ancestors were persecuted in the past. I can look up the names of these novels for you if you want when I get home.
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Old 27th November 2006, 03:47 PM   #46
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I've learned that the most prosperous years in the history of Spain were those when the jews, the muslims and the christians co-existed in Spain as this period of tolerance helped the Spanish economy to flourish and brought spanish culture to higher levels as each group contributed assets to Spain, still enjoyed to this day, such as architecture, cooking, music and others. It was the expulsion of the jews and muslims which came about from the intolerance that the Spanish royalty decided to finally manifest.

I see this unfortunate turn of events in Spain's history to be the result of prejudice and not some effort to rid a malevolent presence which existed in Spain for 800 years.
I agree 100%! Apart from some less fortunate episodes during which Al-Andalus was ruled by more strictly Muslim caliphs, coexistence seems to have been the norm. because Islam was a much more tolerant religion back then. Under Muslim rule, the sciences flourished and even though Jews and Christians were classified as dhimmies (unbelievers), they were not forced to convert to Islam and they could practice their religion openly. Jews and Muslims actually had lots in common, i.e. dietary practices and the use of ritual baths. The jews often acted as cultural mediators between Muslims and Christians, translating books by the Greek philosophers which had been saved by the Arabs into Latin. IMO, it' s very unfortunate that Islam, for whatever reason, became a much more intolerant religion after their Golden Age ended.
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Old 27th November 2006, 04:42 PM   #47
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It goes without saying that the Incas and the Aztecs were cruel too, but this doesn't justify the glorification of European (I' m not only talking about Spain!) colonialism in any way. Even the Pope has shown some remorse. because of what has happened.
The militaristic Incas were less cruel that you think, the majority of their empire was formed by 'peaceful' means where regional kings were coerced into joining the empire by money and threats. Read here about a conquistador's deep regrets about exterminating a peaceful, friendly and good people.
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Old 28th November 2006, 01:28 AM   #48
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My ancestors were Jewish, and they covered themselves with the the Cross to survive, I still eat Kocher today, and I am protestant not jewish, but I am jewish by race. A lot of them survived that way.
Now they were not practicing withcraft, well I guess some of them did it, like a lot of other people at that time. And the Inquicicion were always hunting for this, we can't forget, it was very commun in Europe at that time, to practice whitchcraft, and espiritismo, and espiritualismo. For the Inquisicion was all Withcraft, and once they accused you of that you were history, maybe some of the Jewish practices were seen as whitchcraft? I dont know maybe.
Regading the comment about the "loving aztecs" I think you are right to a certain point, some people jointed there empire just because they were very scare but others were forced to joint there empire, they always needed slaves and humans for the human sacrify practice, also they practiced cannibalism. The same goes for the Mayas. A missconception is the poor Indians in America were contaminated by the European with terrible diseases, yes probably this was true, (we are not sure if Syphilis was introduce to America by the European we are unable to find any description of the disease prior Cristobal Colon and his adventure, and after this we had an outbrake of Syphilis in Europe like you never seen before, thats when make up for women and men became very popular and wigs because one of the things Syphilis do is to make you to loose your hair and to have spots in the skin, but please if you find any description of the sickness prior the discovery of America let me know so I will be able to read it)but also sickness like cholera came from the Indian population other like "Chagas" was unknow in Europe and still is very exotic but a lot of other New Sickness contaminated the European so I think we have to keep the mind opened to learn what really happened back them. America WAS not a paradise and this I can tell you is a fact. Paco.

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Old 28th November 2006, 02:04 AM   #49
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Jews may share origins and therefore have similar HLAs in their genotypical makeup but they are not a race, they are an ethnicity. Forcing jews to convert or leave is part and parcel of the expulsion carried out by the Spanish royalty so for the jews who remained, they essentially had to change their identity or leave. Claiming to have jewish heritage does not give one the moral license to perpetuate antisemitic ideology. The expulsion was one brutal example of intolerance to difference which has to be avoided today as Spain becomes more and more diverse from the influx of immigrants.

It was the indigenous populations of the Americas which suffered infestations from Europeans and not the other way around. That is evidenced by the fact that whole indigenous communities were wiped out completely within a century after the arrival of Europeans. If the converse were true than European communities would have been wiped out like so many natives were in the Americas, but that simply wasn't the case.



Bottom line: Immigrant influx means tolerance to diversity in, xenophobia out.
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Old 28th November 2006, 02:51 AM   #50
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It stands to reason that Amerindian populations passed diseases to Spanish invaders that they came into contact with (many of which probably died of them long before arriving back onto Spanish shores - I am sure I have read about conquistadors becoming sick and dieing in the new world).

It's a little ridiculous, however, to deny the well documented deaths of millions from strange new diseases in North and South America brought by Europeans.
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Old 28th November 2006, 09:50 AM   #51
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I see myself as a race, I am semitic and I look semitic I am pro-Israel 100% And I want to make that clear.
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Old 28th November 2006, 02:28 PM   #52
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I see myself as a race, I am semitic and I look semitic I am pro-Israel 100% And I want to make that clear.

Raza: El término raza refiere a cada uno de los grupos en que se subdividen las especies (humanas y no humanas). Las categorías raciales humanas más usadas están basadas en los carácteres biológicos visibles (especialmente el color de piel y las características faciales), y los genes.
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Old 28th November 2006, 03:21 PM   #53
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I'm just dipping my toe in here, because the last time we had a similar discussion, I appeared to have put both my feet in...big time.!

It is well documented that Captain Eucyer distributed blankets and an handkerchief infected with the smallpox virus, from the already infected Fort Pitt during the Pontiac Indian war.
The smallpox virus wiped out more people than diseases like measles, chickenpox, typus, diphtheria, etc etc. all put together.

The diseases mentioned above are highly contagious communal diseases, and as the Indians lived in sparse communities up and down the plains, and with the exception of veneral disease, they were free from communicable diseases, therefore they had no immunity to the "white mans" infectious dieases that had ravaged Europe and Asia for centuries ....the white man brought the disease to the Indians...otherwise how can we account for them flourishing and existing in a hard terrain prior to the invasion of Europeans.?

Also, the Indians practised the procedure of "isolation" hundreds of years prior to the "white man" acknowledging that it would prevent the spread of disease....anyone sick in a village would be taken outside and assigned a "nurse" usually an old woman who "belonged" to nobody.

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Old 28th November 2006, 04:10 PM   #54
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I see myself as a race, I am semitic and I look semitic I am pro-Israel 100% And I want to make that clear.
I personally don't see the reason for posting such a statement, and I find it racist and provocative in nature.

I'm going to put both my feet in here, by saying that the jews are not a semitic race.....there is no such race as a jew.
The word "jew" came about from the translation of latin scripts which do not have the letter J.
In the first translation of the English bible, Wycliffe referred to Jesus as a "gyu" and that word went through many changes like giu, iuw, iwe, iow, etc etc...until finally jew.

Anyone born in Judea was called a Judean, and Jesus was referred to as a Judean.
The Eastern jews who form 92% of the worlds population that call themselves jews were originally Khazars.
The only people who are semitic are the Arabs.

Last edited by Señora; 28th November 2006 at 06:11 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 28th November 2006, 05:37 PM   #55
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The militaristic Incas were less cruel that you think, the majority of their empire was formed by 'peaceful' means where regional kings were coerced into joining the empire by money and threats. Read here about a conquistador's deep regrets about exterminating a peaceful, friendly and good people.
I running out of euros sooo fast here!!! (I using one of these computers which have got a slit to put money in) Next week I will read the Inca article and post a more extensive comment. This is interesting stuff and I always enjoy discussing it. Hasta pronto., I'll keep in touch.
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Old 28th November 2006, 05:38 PM   #56
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Jews may share origins and therefore have similar HLAs in their genotypical makeup but they are not a race, they are an ethnicity. Forcing jews to convert or leave is part and parcel of the expulsion carried out by the Spanish royalty so for the jews who remained, they essentially had to change their identity or leave. Claiming to have jewish heritage does not give one the moral license to perpetuate antisemitic ideology. The expulsion was one brutal example of intolerance to difference which has to be avoided today as Spain becomes more and more diverse from the influx of immigrants.

It was the indigenous populations of the Americas which suffered infestations from Europeans and not the other way around. That is evidenced by the fact that whole indigenous communities were wiped out completely within a century after the arrival of Europeans. If the converse were true than European communities would have been wiped out like so many natives were in the Americas, but that simply wasn't the case.



Bottom line: Immigrant influx means tolerance to diversity in, xenophobia out.
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Old 28th November 2006, 11:01 PM   #57
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/arti...355583,00.html
An article about racism in Spain.
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Old 29th November 2006, 12:14 AM   #58
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I thought the majority of those "wiped out" group of indians. Was more because they were forced to work in terrible conditions. That's why el Padre Las Casas. Came to the king and queen of Spain asking them for help to releive the indians from these forced work they were not use to work so hard. And they did help. However this also started the black slavery. Slavery is a terrible thing. But human being always are looking for somobody else to don the dirty work. We are still doing it, and we will continue doing it.
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Old 29th November 2006, 04:25 PM   #59
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I thought the majority of those "wiped out" group of indians. Was more because they were forced to work in terrible conditions. That's why el Padre Las Casas. Came to the king and queen of Spain asking them for help to releive the indians from these forced work they were not use to work so hard. And they did help. However this also started the black slavery. Slavery is a terrible thing. But human being always are looking for somobody else to don the dirty work. We are still doing it, and we will continue doing it.
In the Caribbean I believe those who didn't die of disease were worked to death, yes.
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Old 7th December 2006, 01:46 AM   #60
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Last week, a white supremacist on a Dutch discussion board said I didn't have the right to call myself Dutch because of my appearance (he had found my picture on Flickr, the same avatar I use here). Some people are just full off ****.
You got me thinking how Un-English Mr Ben Curtis looks, everyone knows Englishmen look this this...


Ben... You are a fraud. A fraud I tell you!
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